[Manga] Naruto Chapter 588 Discussion

[Alchemist007]

Sharinnegan.

That is all.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by octaviahawk

Does anyone else think Itachi totally trolled Sasuke?

Itachi: Help me fight Kabuto and I'll tell you all my deep dark secrets.
Sasuke: Sweet.

later...

Itachi: Well, fight's over. Looks like I'll end Edo Tensei now...
Sasuke: BUT ITACHI YOU RUINED MY LIFE AND YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO have a nice long chat with me over tea about--
Itachi: I promised nothing. Go cry to Naruto.
Sasuke: *sob*

T-T

Something tells me Sasuke is not going to sit there and accept that.....

I mean he could threaten to kill Kabuto before Itachi can make him cancel Edo Tensei or catch his attention by by making him feel guilty about the way he treated him. I wonder what Sasuke would do if he knew what Naruto knowa about Tobi. Tobi is the one who tried to destroy Konoha with Kyuubi and let the Uchiha clan take the blame for his own deed. Itachi already told him that but Tobi lied and said it was a natural disaster.

What if that is all it takes to end Sasuke's genocidal bloodlust?

Learning the truth about Tobi's plot.

There should be more to it than that. Like maybe Sasuke comes to terms with the fact that Tobi is using him for his world domination plans and recognizes the greater good. But he seems to be too obsessed with revenge to think clearly like that.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

no matter what the complainers ask for, they will still complain when they get it. all the complainers who wanted to return to the naruto tobi fight will complain when the manga gets back to that fight too.

Criticism of the manga does not equal complaining. You should know better.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by solidguy

He has been using sharingan techniques with his rinnengan. There is nothing to suggest that this perfect form is different from Itachi's with the totsuka sword and yata mirror.

madara activated EMS to put raikage in a genjutsu, then he activated rinnegan to use perfect susano'o. you're ignoring what the author is showing us or you are saying that what he showed us doesn't matter.

also, you are not taking into account the fundamentals of this type of storytelling. perfect susano'o is meant to be a big deal as the culmination of the edo madara fight and the climax of this chapter. it's not something we have seen before or that would be anti-climactic and against the grain of these animes like naruto that constantly build on powers and show us new ones or improved versions.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Criticism of the manga does not equal complaining. You should know better.

wanting a certain part of the story to pause or end in lieu of another part and then not being satisfied with what you asked for is not criticism. calling this chapter "kage fanservice" is not criticism, it's complaining, and imo it's unwarranted. the fight is going pretty much as should have been expected. it's a brutal fight in which we all knew the kages didn't have much left to give but their willpowers.

[astayanax]

perfect susano'o is meant to be a big deal as the culmination of the edo madara fight and the climax of this chapter.

I am under that impression as well. It seems that Madara is using Rinnengan to enhance some of his MS jutsus. It looks like some of the paper seal things used on the edos were peeling off the susano'o. I wonder if this perfect susano'o is the user transforming into susano'o itself. This would remove alot of the limitations that the regular susano'o jutsu has.

I thought though that it was a Madara clone that put the Raikage under a genjutsu. The real Madara to me appear to have the Rinnengan activated for the entire chapter.

I am surprised that the Kages weren't slaughtered and managed to defeat 25 susano'o wielding madara clones (and almost the real madara at that).

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by james0246

^We've known for quite awhile that Susano'o had a "perfect" form.

The real surprise of this chapter is just how strong the Kages are. Especially Oonoki.

hate to tell you this... what we learned is other than oonoki. the kaga aint shit. all that feel good talk didnt take down madara did it. and gaara and the mei started the chapt crying about how powerful mardara was, not too mention what madara did to the raikage. the truth is without oonoki the kaga would have been beat down even more than they were. who thinks another prep talk is gonna stop madara now with this final perfect susannoo. final point is the kaga cannot beat him and its all up to itachi period.

[X207]

Originally Posted by Eragon

Bleach has become quite a laughing stock these days >_>. Just check out the latest chapter thread or the one before that and most of the comments are sarcastic - can't blame the readers though. Kubo's practically destroyed any respect Bleach had after starting the final arc.

Although I can't see something like that happening with Naruto since it still has a main plot.

i dont mind Bleach's final arc at all, its the arc just before that which was a trainwreck.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

hate to tell you this... what we learned is other than oonoki. the kaga aint shit.

Yeah lets forget that Oonoki's been juicing up off Tsunade.

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

madara activated EMS to put raikage in a genjutsu, then he activated rinnegan to use perfect susano'o. you're ignoring what the author is showing us or you are saying that what he showed us doesn't matter.

also, you are not taking into account the fundamentals of this type of storytelling. perfect susano'o is meant to be a big deal as the culmination of the edo madara fight and the climax of this chapter. it's not something we have seen before or that would be anti-climactic and against the grain of these animes like naruto that constantly build on powers and show us new ones or improved versions.

Madara still used susanoo with rinnengan. There is no need to use sharingan to use imperfect susanoo. So to say that this is different from itachi's/sasuke's because he used rinnengan is flawed as there is no direct corrolation between a rinnengan specific technique and susanoo. Also it does go quite well with the tension built. Itachi at his peak was considered invincible with the ultimate offence and ultimate defence in the form of the yata mirror and the totsuka (sp?) sword. Itachi does not have elbow room to grow and so this is his 'perfect form'. Plus you cannot ignore the character design similarities with the hooded and small gleaming eyes that both susanoo possess. A trait even sasukes final susanoo has in common. What i think kishi meant when he said stated perfect form at the end wasnt a declaration of a new technique but a declaration that Madara is giving it his all.

That and Sasuke already stated that Itachi was perfect. You cant argue with the sauce.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by astayanax

It looks like some of the paper seal things used on the edos were peeling off the susano'o.

No, you can also see those scales/feathers on Sasuke's Susanoo and in a smaller measure Itachi's. Madara's perfect Susanoo looks pretty much exactly like Sasuke's... Except for the fact that it seems to be a few hundreds meters high that is.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

madara activated EMS to put raikage in a genjutsu, then he activated rinnegan to use perfect susano'o. you're ignoring what the author is showing us or you are saying that what he showed us doesn't matter.

This is your claim, not the author's.
Madara has kept the Rinnegan activated all along, it was one of his clone who did this.

[KnightOfTwo]

Originally Posted by X207

what chances do you think they'll end the manga after this arc? we have the full scale war going on with Madara going full speed. once this ends i dont see much atm to add to the manga than Naruto fighting Sasuke and becoming hokage. i dont mind it dragging on too much but theres always some limit to it. i do find this arc very intersting though the feeling i get from it is similar to them tying up loose ends of the story to possibly finishing the series in the near future.

Well, I could see the current arc ending one of two ways. Either the shinobi alliance/naruto win by defeating tobi (and sasuke is dealt with in whatever way) and we proceed to the end of the story as whole or, we could see tobi win (as a way of another arc). Tobi manages to achieve his goal, activate the moon's eye and we go into an arc of naruto figuring the world is wrong (probably because of kurama) and he has to unite everyone to make their collective will reject the genjutsu or something of the sort, making a big truly united shinobi world statement or some such thing.

But there is no real way I could see there being any major continuation after the events of the war. Anything else just seems kinda weak in comparison. Yeah we could get a few chapters of timeskip to see the effects narutism has had on the world, but I don't really see another arc after tobi is defeated (aside from the moon's eye one i said above). Though I would absolutely love to see a big timeskip, maybe a couple centuries, and show the effects time has had on narutism. To see if his philosophy and deeds are maintained and upheld with time or just regarded as fantastical legend like the Sage of the Six Paths. Which, tbh I would love to see a more cynical ending. As in everyone who knew naruto, who was part of his philosophy, the lives he touched, when they die off, his impact dies with them and the shinobi way starts again.

Kishi would never do that though, so oh well.

[Frenchie]

The story has the opportunity to go real dark before the end with Madara actually succeeding with his plan. (He seemed to be okay with having only part of the Hachibi's chakra, so maybe he could give an incomplete moon a shot) I could sort of see the war lost, Sasuke fought Naruto to a stalemate and sees what happens under the moon's eye influence and doesn't like it. He doesn't have to turn good straight away.

I dare hope that's the direction we're going. Kishi surprised me with the destruction of Konoha and I hope he pulls a similarly awesome move to turn this war on its head.. It has been feeling exceedingly one-sided so far.

[Nintendo]

sasuke just wanted to know what tobi said was the truth, itachi pretty much confirmed it. no need to talk anymore.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

I dare hope that's the direction we're going. Kishi surprised me with the destruction of Konoha and I hope he pulls a similarly awesome move to turn this war on its head.. It has been feeling exceedingly one-sided so far.

Considering Konoha's destruction ended up a fart in the wind I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

[kk2extreme]

No one cares about Byakugan anymore...

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Considering Konoha's destruction ended up a fart in the wind I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Why do you have to be so realistic, Hunter..

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by solidguy

Madara still used susanoo with rinnengan. There is no need to use sharingan to use imperfect susanoo.

of course there is. sharingan, specifically MS or higher are necessary to use susano'o.

So to say that this is different from itachi's/sasuke's because he used rinnengan is flawed as there is no direct corrolation between a rinnengan specific technique and susanoo.

except for the fact that madara is using rinnegan and susano'o at once...

Also it does go quite well with the tension built. Itachi at his peak was considered invincible with the ultimate offence and ultimate defence in the form of the yata mirror and the totsuka (sp?) sword. Itachi does not have elbow room to grow and so this is his 'perfect form'. Plus you cannot ignore the character design similarities with the hooded and small gleaming eyes that both susanoo possess. A trait even sasukes final susanoo has in common.

no. the artwork is clearly different. 4 arms, different cloak, massive size, plus whatever it has in store in terms of techniques which we haven't seen yet.

Originally Posted by Hunter

This is your claim, not the author's.
Madara has kept the Rinnegan activated all along, it was one of his clone who did this.

true it is my claim and true it was a clone, but the fact that a clone did it doesn't mean it wasn't madara using EMS to perform the genjutsu which is all I was saying. also, the artwork suggests my claim imho. the bottom panels of page 8 clearly show the EMS at work casting the genjutsu. and then the right middle panel of the last page shows the rinnegan at work casting perfect susano'o. of course this could just be argued to be madara at work, but that is like saying it was itachi who manifested susano'o, not his MS, which I do not agree with. it is both the ninja and the abilities of the eye they possess. I think it stands to reason that if madara needed EMS to use perfect susano'o then that would be the eye he used to do it, we've seen him use both during this fight, it's not like he has a permanent rinnegan

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

Why do you have to be so realistic, Hunter..

I'd like to give credit to this idea really, I always thought it would be great to make Tobi succeed so Naruto and a few others would be turned into the rebellion forced to hide and fight former comrades and the entire might of the ninja world so they would be the underdog for a change.
But I also can't help but face the fact that it's not what the author is going for. Just like the concept of the Ninja World War 4 was great until it turned out to be united human Vs. a bunch of white goo and zombie.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

true it is my claim and true it was a clone, but the fact that a clone did it doesn't mean it wasn't madara using EMS to perform the genjutsu which is all I was saying. also, the artwork suggests my claim imho. the bottom panels of page 8 clearly show the EMS at work casting the genjutsu. and then the right middle panel of the last page shows the rinnegan at work casting perfect susano'o. of course this could just be argued to be madara at work, but that is like saying it was itachi who manifested susano'o, not his MS, which I do not agree with. it is both the ninja and the abilities of the eye they possess. I think it stands to reason that if madara needed EMS to use perfect susano'o then that would be the eye he used to do it, we've seen him use both during this fight, it's not like he has a permanent rinnegan

The fact that it wasn't Madara who did it doesn't mean it wasn't Madara who did it? Like saying Itachi's eyes use a jutsu and not Itachi himself?
... Are you drunk?

Look it's really that simple what you're doing is a simple logical fallacy, correlation does not imply causation. Your entire argument lies with the fact that Madara has the Rinnegan activated when he use his perfect Susanoo (and your incorrect belief that he had switched between the EMS/Rinnegan to use Genjutsu), the problem is that Madara has had the Rinnegan activated non-stop since the last 28 chapters including when he used partial Susanoo or Mokuton, does that mean that partial Susanoo and Mokuto are Rinnegan power? Of course not.
The fact that Madara being a Rikudou translates in more power which translate in turn in more powerful jutsu is not in question but it doesn't imply in no shape or form that the jutsu he uses have to necessitate the Rinnegan particulary for jutsu known to operate without it.

no. the artwork is clearly different. 4 arms, different cloak, massive size, plus whatever it has in store in terms of techniques which we haven't seen yet.

Itachi and Sasuke's Susanoo also have 4 arms and the artwork and cloak are the same as Sasuke's EMS Susanoo. There are only 2 differences so far in Madara's case : the fact that it can grow legs as well as we saw in the last 13 chapters and of course its sheer size this week.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The fact that it wasn't Madara who did it doesn't mean it wasn't Madara who did it? Like saying Itachi's eyes use a jutsu and not Itachi himself?
... Are you drunk?

lol how silly.. you said it was madara's clone as if that implies madara didn't do it or something. I'm just saying that madara using a clone to put raikage in a genjutsu doesn't mean anything as a part of your argument. when naruto uses a clone to use rasen-shuriken it doesn't mean naruto didn't use the technique. it doesn't mean anything as far as this discussion goes. why even bring it up?

Look it's really that simple what you're doing is a simple logical fallacy, correlation does not imply causation. Your entire argument lies with the fact that Madara has the Rinnegan activated when he use his perfect Susanoo (and your incorrect belief that he had switched between the EMS/Rinnegan to use Genjutsu),

nope it's correct. just look at page 8 that I referenced. madara's clone was clearly using EMS not rinnegan

the problem is that Madara has had the Rinnegan activated non-stop since the last 28 chapters including when he used partial Susanoo or Mokuton, does that mean that partial Susanoo and Mokuto are Rinnegan power? Of course not.

yes he has used rinnegan which is an advanced sharingan. mokuton is not a sharingan technique. how silly to even imply that. susano'o is a sharingan technique of course. madara was using EMS when he formed susano'o and he then activated rinnegan and used susano'o along with rinnegan powers like meteor technique. so rinnegan was used to make susano'os powers more advanced which is what I'm implying here with perfect susano'o. Also, it was a conscious decision on kishi's part to make his clones have EMS as opposed to rinnegan, so let's not ignore that

The fact that Madara being a Rikudou translates in more power which translate in turn in more powerful jutsu is not in question but it doesn't imply in no shape or form that the jutsu he uses have to necessitate the Rinnegan particulary for jutsu known to operate without it.

perfect susano'o is not known to operate with anything yet since we have only just seen it for the first time.

Itachi and Sasuke's Susanoo also have 4 arms and the artwork and cloak are the same as Sasuke's EMS Susanoo. There are only 2 differences so far in Madara's case : the fact that it can grow legs as well as we saw in the last 13 chapters and of course its sheer size this week.

after checking the 4 arms thing, they did have 4 arms in the recent kabuto fight so you are right about that. the bottom line is that there is a difference in the artwork no matter how you want to argue it. perfect susano'o is not something we have seen before and the user has rinnegan, the most advanced, arguably perfect, form of sharingan.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Yeah lets forget that Oonoki's been juicing up off Tsunade.

so she helped. its not as if she could have taken him on her own. she hasnt done nearly as much to slow down madara next to oonoki and the justu he has. he is the only one whose type of ninjustsu is brothersome to madara.(madara pretty much said that in this chapt) you noticed he didnt target tsunada.....hmm i wonder why.