[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

But that would mean that your answer is infinity, i.e. Sayo only accepts the death of Shannon or Kanon based off her own life or death status, and if she didn't die and didn't allow Shannon or Kanon to be killed, they're alive.

What follows is that the red text regarding the life or death status of Shannon and Kanon has no objective basis, stalemate.

Nope, that's not the case. I guess I haven't explained what a witch is well enough. Sayo believes that perception is reality, so if everyone other than herself perceives something one way, then it becomes the truth. That means it's the perception of those around her decides whether Kanon and Shannon are alive.

So yes, if Sayo is the killer, she can switch them on and off, but only if she can convince people that Shannon or Kanon has died and come back from the dead. And if she isn't the killer, there's no conflict at all. In other words, there's always a way for us observers to tell when Kanon or Shannon 'dies'.

Originally Posted by Oliver

What I am much more interested in finding out is what happens if you kill both of them in this manner, while the physical Sayo is alive in that room, and nobody else knows anything of the sort happened except people who had to participate in it.

Do we get a catatonic Sayo, or a personality which considers itself the ultimate authority over it's experiences? Which one will it be?

Again, that's not how I'm suggesting it works. Sure, Sayo would be sad, as though her best friends had been killed (plus her lives as those people would be ruined), but there's no need for a mental breakdown. However, she wouldn't be able to appear in front of anyone anymore and would have to go into hiding.

Originally Posted by Oliver

Considering that never once Shannon or Kanon are alive in red... we simply can't tell.

But who cares? Sure it might happen, but how could it affect the mystery? If it does affect the mystery, it's only as a way to determine Sayo's mental state, so all red text problems are avoided and we're back to the story. So this case can never create a hole in the theory, either a logical one are a fairness one.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I've already mentioned this one. Whether Sayo is the culprit or not, the fact remains that she's devastated at the loss of Shannon. I think the point of that love duel was to show that she can't easily abandon any of her furniture. Also, unless everyone in the kitchen was in on the murders, Sayo couldn't really say "Damn, I killed my Shannon personality and those other dudes and I feel like crap".

That's not the point. The point is that Kanon doesn't even know why Natsuhi wasn't chosen, he doesn't even know that there was a scorpion charm involved and he keeps on asking questions about that to Genji.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The lie does have a basis. It may not be as solid of a basis as a physical corpse (and remember, there was a physical one in EP3, so only EP2 is an issue), but it still means that 'Kanon' can never appear again without looking like a zombie...or, in EP2's case, Jessica's murderer.

Your dodging the main question. Why is one corpse more necessary than the other? Because as far as I know except for Episode 3 it's not. It's just there to be convenient for you.

As for how this lie thing works. Your claim is that this death thing works based on lie on someone's mental gameboard, but what you cite for this is a tea party where if everyone believes in something the lie becomes true.

These are two different theories.

One uses everyone's mental gameboard for the lie to work. The other uses a single person's mental gameboard to work. This second case requires the equivalent of "Rosa" that created 'Kanon' since it only works with the "two people make a universe rule"

other than that I still find it hard to beleive that a lie that anyone believes can become a bonified red truth. I don't think you have any guarantee that this can be 100% certain.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

But who cares? Sure it might happen, but how could it affect the mystery? If it does affect the mystery, it's only as a way to determine Sayo's mental state, so all red text problems are avoided and we're back to the story. So this case can never create a hole in the theory, either a logical one are a fairness one.

Your theory by its very nature "avoids all red text problems" because it definitionally defines all red text in whatever context is convenient for the theory. It's intellectually dishonest for exactly that reason. Oliver believes - I think, anyway - that a set of rules for the entire game should be independently determinable outside the context of a single character's belief system. They may not be the same way we the readers expect the rules of perception and belief to work, but they have to be consistent.

You put too much weight on this nonexistent "Sayo" character you've made up (and she is, in the end, a fictional character entirely of your own creation) and just assume everything in the game has to follow her rules. Last I checked, there were 16-17 other game board pieces and God knows how many meta-world characters, and I don't see any evidence they obey the same rules or perceive anything in the same manner.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

other than that I still find it hard to beleive that a lie everyone beleives can become a bonified red truth. I don't think you have any guarantee that this can be 100% certain.

"My magic was not able to revive Sakutarou".

Not 100% definite, but it should count as foreshadowing. How else is Beato able to use red about a meta-character?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

"My magic was not able to revive Sakutarou".

Not 100% definite, but it should count as foreshadowing. How else is Beato able to use red about a meta-character?

Unfortunately Knox's 2nd is apparently used to prevent the red truth from counting as a hint. It can't be solved with this.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

"My magic was not able to revive Sakutarou".

Not 100% definite, but it should count as foreshadowing. How else is Beato able to use red about a meta-character?

Temporality? It could well have been true at the time (past-tense "was"). Ange had another vessel. That vessel may not have existed in 1986, been accessible, or been known. The exact reason is not something we can know. We know only that Ange has seen a new vessel and thus can do it.

There's really no fundamental contradiction in that scene.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Unfortunately Knox's 2nd is apparently used to prevent the red truth from counting as a hint. It can't be solved with this.

The Knox rules refer to the mystery. This is a clue about how the red text can be used. Do you really think that the red text can not be used to provide hints about how the red text can be used?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The Knox rules refer to the mystery. This is a clue about how the red text can be used. Do you really think that the red text can not be used to provide hints about how the red text can be used?

Well...is Kanon a meta character? How do you justify people seeing him if he is?

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

"My magic was not able to revive Sakutarou".

Not 100% definite, but it should count as foreshadowing. How else is Beato able to use red about a meta-character?

A stuffed animal isn't really a character even in real live you knox...*know...
*is killed by Maria*

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Nope, that's not the case. I guess I haven't explained what a witch is well enough. Sayo believes that perception is reality, so if everyone other than herself perceives something one way, then it becomes the truth. That means it's the perception of those around her decides whether Kanon and Shannon are alive.

You fail to define "everyone other than herself", which brings us back to the situation when "everyone" is just one person, the only witness, and Sayo herself is not included in the "everyone" by the virtue of being knocked out at the time.

So is she always included in the "everyone" or just sometimes? What determines if she is?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Again, that's not how I'm suggesting it works. Sure, Sayo would be sad, as though her best friends had been killed (plus her lives as those people would be ruined), but there's no need for a mental breakdown. However, she wouldn't be able to appear in front of anyone anymore and would have to go into hiding.

...in a closed room that everyone immediately afterwards enters and calls her Shannon? I mentioned a closed room for a reason.

Originally Posted by Renall

Your theory by its very nature "avoids all red text problems" because it definitionally defines all red text in whatever context is convenient for the theory. It's intellectually dishonest for exactly that reason. Oliver believes - I think, anyway - that a set of rules for the entire game should be independently determinable outside the context of a single character's belief system. They may not be the same way we the readers expect the rules of perception and belief to work, but they have to be consistent.

That.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

...in a closed room that everyone immediately afterwards enters and calls her Shannon? I mentioned a closed room for a reason.

Oh, so you really don't have a clue what I'm talking about. Well, I've said my piece.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

Your theory by its very nature "avoids all red text problems" because it definitionally defines all red text in whatever context is convenient for the theory. It's intellectually dishonest for exactly that reason. Oliver believes - I think, anyway - that a set of rules for the entire game should be independently determinable outside the context of a single character's belief system. They may not be the same way we the readers expect the rules of perception and belief to work, but they have to be consistent.

I could count a lot of people that did this in several occasions. You and Oliver included.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Oh, so you really don't have a clue what I'm talking about. Well, I've said my piece.

Ok, you won. Have fun.

[Judoh]

Um...I'm pretty sure interpreting the red's context... and proclaiming a death in red based on what a person believes and not what's actually true are two completely different things....

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Ok, you won. Have fun.

Sorry, came out a bit worse than I meant it
I just think that I've already provided an answer to that question.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Um...I'm pretty sure interpreting the red's context... and proclaiming a death in red based on what a person believes and not what's actually true are two completely different things....

I agree completely.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I agree completely.

Are you just being a smartass with me? Your saying that if "Sayo", "Kanon creator", or whatever beleives in the lie that Kanon is dead that means you can state with red that he is. Or vice versa with Shannon.

Beato is not psychic and you have no basis to claim this person is the GM. She can't do that.

And I'll remind you that this narrative refers to "miracles" not "personality tricks".

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Um...I'm pretty sure interpreting the red's context... and proclaiming a death in red based on what a person believes and not what's actually true are two completely different things....

This is gold.

----
I think I'm gonna get laid by everyone for making a false gold/red truth but it does not differ much from the Gold Text from EP6 so...

With magic, Ange revived Sakutarou. And Beatice wasn't able to use this genuine magic.

I would work ? Right ?

Don'thurtmedon'thurtme.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Are you just being a smartass with me? Your saying that if "Sayo", "Kanon creator", or whatever beleives in the lie that Kanon is dead that means you can state with red that he is. Or vice versa wit h Shannon.

Beato is not psychic and you have no basis to claim this person is the GM. She can't do that.

I deny that it's a lie to say that Kanon is dead. The human Kanon never existed in the first place. So, it's impossible for him to "die" in the normal sense.

Kanon is a title used by Sayo, but it is also her furniture, just like Sakutaro was both a doll and Maria's furniture. Beato said in red that it was impossible to revive the furniture Sakutaro. She used the word revive, and she was referring to the furniture Sakutaro in context. So, this is describing what 'the death of furniture' means. I have not proven this; it is a theory.