Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I wish I could have liked this episode more but after 2 episodes of not much happening, I am sorry to say the way this conflict just happened felt a bit contrived to me.

Well can't change how you feel, but why do you say so? The whale squid being a Hideauz was heavily foreshadowed last episode and it came to head this episode. Ledo freaked out at the dinner scene, so no surprise that he'd freak out when he saw one.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Quite a few interesting tidbits this episode...

The Hideauze might explain why the Earthlings are stuck at a early 1900s level of technology. Ledo's comment to them about not being developed enough to be targeted, explain how civilization could regress so much as to go from nanomachines to having the most advanced technology be handheld radio transceivers...

Perhaps the only way for the humans who remained on Earth to survive was to discard all advanced technology and flood the planet?

wouldn't surprise me

Abandoning advanced technology for the sake of peace, seems to be a them in Japanese RPGs. Especially the Tales series.

Goddamn Luddites.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Well can't change how you feel, but why do you say so? The whale squid being a Hideauz was heavily foreshadowed last episode and it came to head this episode. Ledo freaked out at the dinner scene, so no surprise that he'd freak out when he saw one.

Just because it was foreshadowed one episode ago doesn't make it good writing.

I don't know maybe if they spent real time developing Ledo's interaction with Gargantia, not just swim suit parties and watching girls belly dance we could of had something more compelling than this.

[Kanon]

It's hard to tell who's in the right here. I find Gargantia's stance quite reasonable: the whalesquids were never hostile toward them and only attack when provoked, so they have no reason whatsoever to start a war against them. Not to mention, they lack the power to do so anyway. Ledo himself had a hard time killing one of them underwater. Co-existing with them is a better solution. On the other hand, perhaps Ledo's assumption that the Hideauze are leaving the humans of Earth alone because their civilization is not very advanced is true. At first, I thought he was completely mistaken, but what happened at the end of the episode got me thinking. The commander's first reflex was to power down the fleet completely, meaning the Hideauze might be attracted to energy and could very well turn down on the Gargantia when the fleet become more appetizing.

The fact the words co-existence and co-prosperity do not exist in the alliance's dictionary is pretty telling though. Humans were very likely the ones who started the conflict against the Hideauze for whatever reason, and it ended up biting them in the ass. Ledo may very well reproduce the same mistake on Earth.

The show is going in an interesting direction, with Ledo and Amy now having to separate. Ledo and Pinion's searches will most likely lead them to the truth behind the Hideauze and the whole conflict. The only way for this to end well is for Ledo to learn the humans were completely at fault, otherwise he'll never give up on his mission and it will have some very nasty repercussions.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It's hard to tell who's in the right here. I find Gargantia's stance quite reasonable: the whalesquids were never hostile toward them and only attack when provoked, so they have no reason whatsoever to start a war against them. Not to mention, they lack the power to do so anyway. Ledo himself had a hard time killing one of them underwater. Co-existing with them is a better solution. On the other hand, perhaps Ledo's assumption that the Hideauze are leaving the humans of Earth alone because their civilization is not very advanced is true. At first, I thought he was completely mistaken, but what happened at the end of the episode got me thinking. The commander's first reflex was to power down the fleet completely, meaning the Hideauze might be attracted to energy and could very well turn down on the Gargantia when the fleet become more appetizing.

The fact the words co-existence and co-prosperity do not exist in the alliance's dictionary is pretty telling though. Humans were very likely the ones who started the conflict against the Hideauze for whatever reason, and it ended up biting them in the ass. Ledo may very well reproduce the same mistake on Earth.

The show is going in an interesting direction, with Ledo and Amy now having to separate. Ledo and Pinion's searches will most likely lead them to the truth behind the Hideauze and the whole conflict. The only way for this to end well is for Ledo to learn the humans were completely at fault, otherwise he'll never give up on his mission and it will have some very nasty repercussions.

Nah. I don't think that's how Urobutchi's mind operates

I think they'll show that Redo was right, but he'll have to make a painful choice to keep the peace.

remember Psycho=Pass's ending?

[Puu]

Not yet looking at all the comments, but watching this now and halfway through it... I'm just cringing and have to stop at times. Ledo is really looking for trouble

Edit: Just finished it Oh... I... feel the sadness from the episodes after this

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Key Board

Nah. I don't think that's how Urobutchi's mind operates

I think they'll show that Redo was right, but he'll have to make a painful choice to keep the peace.

remember Psycho=Pass's ending?

I don't want to start this whole debate again, but I believed him when he said Gargantia would have a different feel from his other works. So I'm not expecting your usual Urobuchi tweest. I'm convinced this show will end well. Feel free to laugh at me if I'm proven wrong.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I don't know maybe if they spent real time developing Ledo's interaction with Gargantia, not just swim suit parties and watching girls belly dance we could of had something more compelling than this.

Besides some parts of episode 5, there were plenty of interactions with the Gargantia members. Episodes 4-6 in general were really about developing what you said they should be developing. Your issues with the fanservice in episodes 5 and 6 aside (I hated the fanservice in episode 5 and was lukewarm on the fanservice last week as well so I am not excusing it), I think it's a bit ridiculous to assert that they were not showing Ledo interact with the fleet in a meaningful way.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Quite a few interesting tidbits this episode...

The Hideauze might explain why the Earthlings are stuck at a early 1900s level of technology. Ledo's comment to them about not being developed enough to be targeted, explain how civilization could regress so much as to go from nanomachines to having the most advanced technology be handheld radio transceivers...

Perhaps the only way for the humans who remained on Earth to survive was to discard all advanced technology and flood the planet?

I thought of that when he said it and suddenly it wasn't just an argument of "be nice to them and they'll be nice to you" it's more of, "if you keep on just 'surviving' from day to day and don't become too uppity, you won't incur the wrath of the mutant squids".

I don't know if I agree with that. Are earth people going to stay in the dark ages forever? Are they forever going to be afraid of these things? Gargantia is a simple world, that has good things, but it also just survives and hopes to live to another day. It would rather hide it's head than become stronger, so as not to incur the wrath of the enemy (be they pirates or whalesquids).

And the rules of Gargantia can't apply to the Alliance who need their technology to survive. And the Hideauze of space seem much more dangerous than that of Earth.

I have a feeling the Hideauze and the whalesquid feed on the same thing: Energy.

That is the only way it makes sense. The Hideauze live in space which of course wouldn't have food for real squid, but they tangle with human colonies, ships, and stars. That would suggest they are predatory for their energy (solar and electrical). The whalesquid follow the galaxy sea currents which we know is not only full of energy that the human ships use to power themselves, but this power is supplied by the nanomachines which happen to be the most sophisticated tech leftover since the Earth flooded. This would support my hypothesis that the Hideauze of Space and Earth both consume energy and technology, which will, like Red said, be the destruction of both groups of humans in the long run.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Besides some parts of episode 5, there were plenty of interactions with the Gargantia members. Episodes 4-6 in general were really about developing what you said they should be developing. Your issues with the fanservice in episodes 5 and 6 aside (I hated the fanservice in episode 5 and was lukewarm on the fanservice last week as well so I am not excusing it), I think it's a bit ridiculous to assert that they were not showing Ledo interact with the fleet in a meaningful way.

But there was barely any real genuine interaction and it hurt this episode tremendously. Everything feels extremely rushed at this point in the story and that is because they wasted too much time in episode 5 and 6 on things that were unimportant.

So Ledo gets a job salvaging after one episode of searching and in the very next episode he discovers the hideauze and is in conflict with Gargantia. Okay!

Yeah this might be a problem of this series only being one cour, but Madoka Magica certainly didn't have this type of issue.

Heck in one episode we find out Pinion wants to look for treasure in whale squid territory and avenge his brother...I don't know maybe this could have been stuff used to develop his character before not just throw it at us in one episode.

Same with seeing the fleet commander is having a check up and in the very same episode he has a heart attack.

edit: I don't know perhaps this will lead to interesting things but I don't feel this was the smoothest of transitions at all.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I thought of that when he said it and suddenly it wasn't just an argument of "be nice to them and they'll be nice to you" it's more of, "if you keep on just 'surviving' from day to day and don't become too uppity, you won't incur the wrath of the mutant squids".

I don't know if I agree with that. Are earth people going to stay in the dark ages forever? Are they forever going to be afraid of these things? Gargantia is a simple world, that has good things, but it also just survives and hopes to live to another day. It would rather hide it's head than become stronger, so as not to incur the wrath of the enemy (be they pirates or whalesquids).

And the rules of Gargantia can't apply to the Alliance who need their technology to survive. And the Hideauze of space seem much more dangerous than that of Earth.

I have a feeling the Hideauze and the whalesquid feed on the same thing: Energy.

That is the only way it makes sense. The Hideauze live in space which of course wouldn't have food for real squid, but they tangle with human colonies, ships, and stars. That would suggest they are predatory for their energy (solar and electrical). The whalesquid follow the galaxy sea currents which we know is not only full of energy that the human ships use to power themselves, but this power is supplied by the nanomachines which happen to be the most sophisticated tech leftover since the Earth flooded. This would support my hypothesis that the Hideauze of Space and Earth both consume energy and technology, which will, like Red said, be the destruction of both groups of humans in the long run.

Unless the show wants to preach a Luddite hippy theme, as preach that "oh, we don't need development. We are good enough as it is. We just need each other"

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceIsBad

I hope Urobutchi doesn't succumb to that route.

[andyjay729]

I still think the Hideauze aren't evil, but like the Vajra (and by extension, the aliens in Ender's Game). The Alliance will probably be the villains. Although that would be a rather clichéd plot.

That said, are the Hids sentient or not? If they feed on energy, they could be compared with bears and other potentially dangerous animals gorging on people food.

[andyjay729]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But there was barely any real genuine interaction and it hurt this episode tremendously. Everything feels extremely rushed at this point in the story and that is because they wasted too much time in episode 5 and 6 on things that were unimportant.

So Ledo gets a job salvaging after one episode of searching and in the very next episode he discovers the hideauze and is in conflict with Gargantia. Okay!

Yeah this might be a problem of this series only being one cour, but Madoka Magica certainly didn't have this type of issue.

Heck in one episode we find out Pinion wants to look for treasure in whale squid territory and avenge his brother...I don't know maybe this could have been stuff used to develop his character before not just throw it at us in one episode.

Same with seeing the fleet commander is having a check up and in the very same episode he has a heart attack.

edit: I don't know perhaps this will lead to interesting things but I don't feel this was the smoothest of transitions at all.

I haven't complained about this show as much as you have, but I'm totally with you there. The

Spoiler for episode 7:

captain's health problems and Pinion's dead brother

should've been covered earlier.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But there was barely any real genuine interaction and it hurt this episode tremendously. Everything feels extremely rushed at this point in the story and that is because they wasted too much time in episode 5 and 6 on things that were unimportant.

So Ledo gets a job salvaging after one episode of searching and in the very next episode he discovers the hideauze and is in conflict with Gargantia. Okay!

Yeah this might be a problem of this series only being one cour, but Madoka Magica certainly didn't have this type of issue.

Heck in one episode we find out Pinion wants to look for treasure in whale squid territory and avenge his brother...I don't know maybe this could have been stuff used to develop his character before not just throw it at us in one episode.

Same with seeing the fleet commander is having a check up and in the very same episode he has a heart attack.

edit: I don't know perhaps this will lead to interesting things but I don't feel this was the smoothest of transitions at all.

So what you're basically saying is that they could have fit all that some where in the last two episodes, Correct?

If so, Then I agree they could've tossed a bit here and there but I wouldn't treat a missed opportunity as a black mark on the series as a whole.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I thought of that when he said it and suddenly it wasn't just an argument of "be nice to them and they'll be nice to you" it's more of, "if you keep on just 'surviving' from day to day and don't become too uppity, you won't incur the wrath of the mutant squids".

I don't know if I agree with that. Are earth people going to stay in the dark ages forever? Are they forever going to be afraid of these things? Gargantia is a simple world, that has good things, but it also just survives and hopes to live to another day. It would rather hide it's head than become stronger, so as not to incur the wrath of the enemy (be they pirates or whalesquids).

And the rules of Gargantia can't apply to the Alliance who need their technology to survive. And the Hideauze of space seem much more dangerous than that of Earth.

I have a feeling the Hideauze and the whalesquid feed on the same thing: Energy.

That is the only way it makes sense. The Hideauze live in space which of course wouldn't have food for real squid, but they tangle with human colonies, ships, and stars. That would suggest they are predatory for their energy (solar and electrical). The whalesquid follow the galaxy sea currents which we know is not only full of energy that the human ships use to power themselves, but this power is supplied by the nanomachines which happen to be the most sophisticated tech leftover since the Earth flooded. This would support my hypothesis that the Hideauze of Space and Earth both consume energy and technology, which will, like Red said, be the destruction of both groups of humans in the long run.

Yeah, that theory about energy is very plausible and this episode's events further support that.

It's pretty obvious that the Gargantians at the very least know that at one point their civilization was a lot more advanced than they are now. That ship captain that wants to break off with Pinion and Ledo makes mention of it. The fact that he is willing to risk his ships and life for a chance at some of that "treasure" that had been inaccessible due to the Hideauze, tells me that their current level of technology isn't exactly a choice humans have made...

I don't think coexistence describes the relationship the Gargantians have with the Hideauze. The word implies a mutual agreement, and the reaction in the fleet didn't exactly give off that impression...

These people are clearly scared, as anyone would be in their position. They don't have the means to fight back, so all they can do is hide and hope for the best. At the same time, Ledo brings up a good point to Amy and her brother: "Do you people even have a vision to develop your civilization?" That's an integral part of what it is to be human, and something they Gargantians lack. Sure they are peaceful and seem like nice people overall, but the matter of fact is they live in rusty ships, scared of sea monsters, and are living day to day with no goal to strive toward.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

So what you're basically saying is that they could have fit all that some where in the last two episodes, Correct?

If so, Then I agree they could've tossed a bit here and there but I wouldn't treat a missed opportunity as a black mark on the series as a whole.

I honestly would have almost entirely rewritten the last two episodes to both develop Ledo (which they mostly did a good job of) but also develop his relationship with some of the other characters in Gargantia. Let me get to know more about Pinion, Bellows, and Ridget, etc.

Personally I still think the best moments of the series were Ledo's talks with Bevel in episode 4.

That being said I don't think the series as a whole is ruined. Yeah I am happy they got back into the plot but it just felt really rushed to me. That doesn't mean that things won't get better just because we have a rushed beginning of the conflict.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by andyjay729

I still think the Hideauze aren't evil, but like the Vajra (and by extension, the aliens in Ender's Game). The Alliance will probably be the villains. Although that would be a rather clichéd plot.

or they could be like Starship Trooper bugs, the BETA from Muvluv, the Blue from Blue Gender, the Skruggs from Heroman, The Invaders from Getter Robot, ect who are clearly the villains

Originally Posted by andyjay729

That said, are the Hids sentient or not? If they feed on energy, they could be compared with bears and other potentially dangerous animals gorging on people food.

They are clearly sentient. I think the word you are looking for is sapient.

They seem sapient enough to make space fortresses, carriers and do spacefaring

[ChainLegacy]

Back to the awesome main plot with this episode, thankfully.

I bet that Pinion and company will end up unearthing something from the whale squid territory that gives clues to the nature of the Hideauze and perhaps even why there was an exodus from Earth in the first place. I also found the internal politics with the fleet in danger of breaking apart intriguing. Ledo has brought a whole new set of possibilities to these people and has opened the door for those with greater ambitions than maintaining the status quo. Ultimately, when even Ledo's advanced and mighty spacefaring civilization is left in a constant struggle with the Hideauze, it is going to be a bumpy and dangerous decision to make.

On the other hand, it is very much a human desire to control and be the masters of the land. Not unexpected at all that people would hop on board to the idea of fighting back now that they might have the firepower. Certainly, we modern humans have been known to both exploit and revel in our ability to easily dominate creatures who could once have eaten us for lunch or been way out of our league (big game hunters, whalers, etc). Humanity wants both technological prowess and to stand alone at the top of the food chain, for better or worse. I really liked seeing this schism in Gargantia for that reason.

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Yeah, that theory about energy is very plausible and this episode's events further support that.

It's pretty obvious that the Gargantians at the very least know that at one point their civilization was a lot more advanced than they are now. That ship captain that wants to break off with Pinion and Ledo makes mention of it. The fact that he is willing to risk his ships and life for a chance at some of that "treasure" that had been inaccessible due to the Hideauze, tells me that their current level of technology isn't exactly a choice humans have made...

I don't think coexistence describes the relationship the Gargantians have with the Hideauze. The word implies a mutual agreement, and the reaction in the fleet didn't exactly give off that impression...

These people are clearly scared, as anyone would be in their position. They don't have the means to fight back, so all they can do is hide and hope for the best. At the same time, Ledo brings up a good point to Amy and her brother: "Do you people even have a vision to develop your civilization?" That's an integral part of what it is to be human, and something they Gargantians lack. Sure they are peaceful and seem like nice people overall, but the matter of fact is they live in rusty ships, scared of sea monsters, and are living day to day with no goal to strive toward.

They know and are actively trying to reclaim the knowledge through scavenging. There are 3 things that hinder them, though:

1. Pirates: They try to keep out of the pirates radar
2. Their reliance on the galaxy for power
3. Their fear of entering Whalesquid territory. Pinion was pretty sure there were treasures (which I'm assuming is higher level tech) near where the whalesquids live, but they actively stay out their territory both out of superstition and fear

I agree what others have said that they keep up to survive but it seems like some, like Pinion and that one fleet dude, want to forge ahead at a much faster pace and scavenge more "treasures"

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Yeah, that theory about energy is very plausible and this episode's events further support that.

It's pretty obvious that the Gargantians at the very least know that at one point their civilization was a lot more advanced than they are now. That ship captain that wants to break off with Pinion and Ledo makes mention of it. The fact that he is willing to risk his ships and life for a chance at some of that "treasure" that had been inaccessible due to the Hideauze, tells me that their current level of technology isn't exactly a choice humans have made...

I don't think coexistence describes the relationship the Gargantians have with the Hideauze. The word implies a mutual agreement, and the reaction in the fleet didn't exactly give off that impression...

These people are clearly scared, as anyone would be in their position. They don't have the means to fight back, so all they can do is hide and hope for the best. At the same time, Ledo brings up a good point to Amy and her brother: "Do you people even have a vision to develop your civilization?" That's an integral part of what it is to be human, and something they Gargantians lack. Sure they are peaceful and seem like nice people overall, but the matter of fact is they live in rusty ships, scared of sea monsters, and are living day to day with no goal to strive toward.

Another part that I found interesting was that the Red makes the argument that the Gargantians care more about the sacred "whalesquid" than they do about their fellow human beings who are dying everyday because of the Hideauze. The Gargantians simply state that it's not their problem. However, if these Earth Hideauze are simply chaos waiting to happen then they will one day become a problem as Red says they will be.

The Hideauze are his territory and he knows how dangerous they can be. From what Red states the Hideauze are aware enough to not only have different fighting types, but organized armies, bases, and plans of attack. Do the ones of Earth have the same sentience?

And know this, despite any sort of acclimation Red has made to Earth life, he will never be able to live on the same planet as the Hideauze peacefully. He has fought them for too long and lost too many fellow soldiers to them. And if the Gargantians live through half the stuff that he has had too, they would agree. I can go with co-habitation and everything, but there is a point where you can take it too far. Especially if I must live in fear of said species.