AnimeSuki Forums

EndlessNine · 2009-09-19, 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by sento

You guys are giving too much credit to something that Bern said in EP1 and not even was mentioned in the anime...

It could be a hint, right? :3

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Diru~

Hmm as Genji was with Rosa and Battler and left before they entered the parlor again, I wanted to say that Genji lured them to Natsuhi's room.
While they were there, the culprit went into the parlor and placed the letter.

Oh, I see. I'm really sorry. @_@ *smacks head against desk*
Even though that makes sense, I can't picture Genji killing the family members. He seems so... loyal.

Unless the culprit solved the riddle, and became "Kinzo". Then yes, I think he could command Genji to do this murder.

~Diru~ · 2009-09-19, 15:58

Hmm Culprit and Genji are out, Culprit(new Kinzo) kills them and Genji just places the letter

momobunny · 2009-09-19, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldsmith

Because Ryukishi is supervising it this time and said that anime watchers could still solve it?

That doesn't mean that important things won't be missing. How closely do you think one man can supervise a project when he was working on Ookami Kakushi, Rewrite, AND future Umineko games, tips, and other extras at the same time?

It might actually help anime watchers if they knew what was in the game too, it's not like everything was left out because it wasn't important. They're fitting 4 huge games into 26 episodes, there are time constraints and pacing that have to go into account as well. :3

sento · 2009-09-19, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

So what would make you think that anything not in the anime of Umineko is automatically unimportant?

Because Ryuukishi said that anime watchers can solve the mystery.

Because it will be really stupid that something that Bern said you in EP1 at the end turns to be the absolute truth.

Because he already said that there is a culprit (with a "why?" as the most imporant thing about) roaming around the island.

momobunny · 2009-09-19, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by sento

Because Ryuukishi said that anime watchers can solve the mystery.

And because it will be really stupid that something that Bern said you in EP1 at the end turns to be the absolute truth.

It might be an important hint. Don't just automatically dismiss anything that's not in the anime because Ryukishi said it should be solvable to anime only watchers as well.

The anime still screwed up a couple of things too (Natsuhi falling right when the door opened in EP1... where George got staked in EP2...), so it's not a bad idea to check the original media source for information as well.

sento · 2009-09-19, 16:08

The whole Beatrice as personification of the rules... yes, she is the gamemaster, she personifies the rules.

But right now, we also know that there is a culprit behind her illusion, a culprit with a really important "why", as Ryuukishi said. So the whole "she is not a definite person" maybe had sense in EP1, but not now.

momobunny · 2009-09-19, 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by sento

The whole Beatrice as personification of the rules... yes, she is the gamemaster, she personifies the rules.

But right now, we also know that there is a culprit behind her illusion, a culprit with a really imporant "why", as Ryuukishi said. So the whole "she is not a definite person" maybe had sense in EP1, but not now.

This is true, I never disagreed with that. :3

Jan-Poo · 2009-09-19, 23:42

However you still need to get around the red truth of ep4. Battler is alone and yet Beatrice killed him.

There's been a lot of crazy theories, but the more the story progress the more I think "simple is best". There might be an easy explanation for this. Just think about Rosa in ep3. "I killed Beatrice". However we know that she didn't directly killed her, and she didn't even had the intention to do so. In other words "I will kill you" doesn't necessarily means that Beatrice will directly kill Battler nor that she will consciously do so. It is more like she causes Battler to die somehow.

It's not much different from what Beatrice said a little earlier: "because of you everyone dies, no one remains alive."

Jan-Poo · 2009-09-20, 00:28

Spoiler for Episode5 spoiler on magic:

TsundereCake · 2009-09-20, 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for Episode5 spoiler on magic:

I get it but.... Man, that's confusing

Tyabann · 2009-09-20, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for Episode5 spoiler on magic:

I can only say "Your mind makes it real!"

Seriously though, I understand what you mean perfectly... just because magic isn't real doesn't mean it can't have an effect on people, right?

Jan-Poo · 2009-09-20, 07:15

If you put it that way, I agree. Ryukishi in ep4 really went to a great extent as to explain how "magic" is formed, created, transmits from people to people, influence people and consequently the world around them.

Now it becomes something like this, "does fantasy exist?"

If I say that fantasy exists, people will say: "where does fantasy exist? It isn't a real object, it's just a concept."

If I say fantasy doesn't exist, people will say: "how can you say that? If fantasy didn't exist, people wouldn't dream, they could not imagine anything but the real world."

So you get to realize there are different way for something to "exist". Something can exist as a physical entity, but you can say something exists as a concept. In such perspective is it possible to say that "magic" exists? Is it possible to say it doesn't exist? I think Ange came to a somewhat good conclusion:

"I don't recognize the magic as being real, but I do recognize that it can be real for someone somewhere"

June 1983 · 2009-09-20, 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for Episode5 spoiler on magic:

Damn, that is cool. I really can't wait to play EP 5. <3 <3 <3

rogerpepitone · 2009-09-20, 08:44

Ssol: In your sixth key hypothesis, why did the killer destroy the extra key? Nobody on the island is aware of the existence of red text, so it wouldn't benefit him/her any, and a master key is a very useful thing to have.

luckyssol · 2009-09-20, 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Ssol: In your sixth key hypothesis, why did the killer destroy the extra key? Nobody on the island is aware of the existence of red text, so it wouldn't benefit him/her any, and a master key is a very useful thing to have.

I'm not trying to say that the culprit is aware of the red text and is trying to avoid it.

If the culprit is someone who is trying to blend in with everyone else then they cannot have any suspicious items on them. The culprit initially has the extra key hidden in a secret location but for some reason is unable to return to that location after the murders are complete. Instead of trying to find a new place to hide the extra key the culprit reasons that completely destroying the key would be the safest solution to avoid getting caught. Since the culprit's goal of creating the closed room illusion is complete there is no need for the key anymore.

EPISODE 2
We get the red declaration"The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person" at a little after 7:30am.
However, this does not confirm that there are only 5 at that time even though we believe there are only 5 servants. The culprit could be acting as a sixth servant who is trying to carry out Kinzo's epitaph.

However, an extra sixth key cannot explain the last closed room where George, Shannon, and Gohda die since Rosa takes control of all the keys and Beatrice declares in red, "There are only 5 master keys."

EPISODE 3
At 7:00am we get the red declaration, "There are five, one for each servant". So the extra key was destroyed after the first twilight.

EPISODE 4
There are no red declarations during the episode so the extra key could have been detroyed at the very end just before the key ring is placed on the Chapel steps where Battler ultimately finds it.

Spoiler for EPISODE 5:

~Diru~ · 2009-09-20, 12:00

I think I posted that earlier again but, since they are on an island, wouldn't it be easier to drop the key of a cliff instead of destroying it by whichever method?

luckyssol · 2009-09-20, 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Diru~

I think I posted that earlier again but, since they are on an island, wouldn't it be easier to drop the key of a cliff instead of destroying it by whichever method?

It may take a bit of time that the culprit does not have to go the cliff, throw the key, and come back. If the culprit has the means of destroying the key immediately available to them then that may be a better option to them.

Kitsu · 2009-09-20, 12:06

You know there was that burned key in Episode 1 that was said to be the key of the study but who knows if that is right.

rogerpepitone · 2009-09-20, 12:07

Destroying a key is pretty difficult and can take a while. Remember, in episode 1, Kinzo's key survived being tossed in the incinerator.

Hiding a key is fast and easy. (For example, if the killer doesn't plan on using it again, toss it out into the middle of the roses. Nobody will be able to find it without a metal detector.) Even if somebody does discover the extra key, it poses little danger to the killer.

~Diru~ · 2009-09-20, 12:08

But didn't the burned key still work?
Genji said he took Kinzo's key with him and gave it to Natsuhi when he left IIRC.

2009-09-19, 15:58	Link #2182
~Diru~ SS.VDine full steam ahead Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Germany Age: 32	Hmm Culprit and Genji are out, Culprit(new Kinzo) kills them and Genji just places the letter __________________ Endless...

2009-09-19, 23:42	Link #2188
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	However you still need to get around the red truth of ep4. Battler is alone and yet Beatrice killed him. There's been a lot of crazy theories, but the more the story progress the more I think "simple is best". There might be an easy explanation for this. Just think about Rosa in ep3. "I killed Beatrice". However we know that she didn't directly killed her, and she didn't even had the intention to do so. In other words "I will kill you" doesn't necessarily means that Beatrice will directly kill Battler nor that she will consciously do so. It is more like she causes Battler to die somehow. It's not much different from what Beatrice said a little earlier: "because of you everyone dies, no one remains alive." __________________

2009-09-20, 07:15	Link #2192
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	If you put it that way, I agree. Ryukishi in ep4 really went to a great extent as to explain how "magic" is formed, created, transmits from people to people, influence people and consequently the world around them. Now it becomes something like this, "does fantasy exist?" If I say that fantasy exists, people will say: "where does fantasy exist? It isn't a real object, it's just a concept." If I say fantasy doesn't exist, people will say: "how can you say that? If fantasy didn't exist, people wouldn't dream, they could not imagine anything but the real world." So you get to realize there are different way for something to "exist". Something can exist as a physical entity, but you can say something exists as a concept. In such perspective is it possible to say that "magic" exists? Is it possible to say it doesn't exist? I think Ange came to a somewhat good conclusion: "I don't recognize the magic as being real, but I do recognize that it can be real for someone somewhere" __________________

2009-09-20, 12:00	Link #2196
~Diru~ SS.VDine full steam ahead Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Germany Age: 32	I think I posted that earlier again but, since they are on an island, wouldn't it be easier to drop the key of a cliff instead of destroying it by whichever method? __________________ Endless...

2009-09-20, 12:06	Link #2198
Kitsu The unlucky one Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hiding	You know there was that burned key in Episode 1 that was said to be the key of the study but who knows if that is right. __________________ Thanks for the Signature, Vandakiara

2009-09-19, 16:08	Link #2186
sento Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009	The whole Beatrice as personification of the rules... yes, she is the gamemaster, she personifies the rules. But right now, we also know that there is a culprit behind her illusion, a culprit with a really important "why", as Ryuukishi said. So the whole "she is not a definite person" maybe had sense in EP1, but not now.

2009-09-20, 08:44	Link #2194
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Ssol: In your sixth key hypothesis, why did the killer destroy the extra key? Nobody on the island is aware of the existence of red text, so it wouldn't benefit him/her any, and a master key is a very useful thing to have.

2009-09-20, 12:07	Link #2199
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Destroying a key is pretty difficult and can take a while. Remember, in episode 1, Kinzo's key survived being tossed in the incinerator. Hiding a key is fast and easy. (For example, if the killer doesn't plan on using it again, toss it out into the middle of the roses. Nobody will be able to find it without a metal detector.) Even if somebody does discover the extra key, it poses little danger to the killer.

2009-09-20, 12:08	Link #2200
~Diru~ SS.VDine full steam ahead Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Germany Age: 32	But didn't the burned key still work? Genji said he took Kinzo's key with him and gave it to Natsuhi when he left IIRC. __________________ Endless...