[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I'd say that Beatrice isn't made to look evil because she destroys love, but because she creates love that can't be supported.

I would even go so far as to say that Beatrice became a kind of scapegoat for Yasu to escape situations that were beyond any kind of control. Like when a religious person says, "The devil made me do it". Just like Maria Yasu was raised to believe in a kind of magical element to the world, at least to a certain degree, believing in chance and miracles.

At the beginning Beatrice became an excuse for clumsiness, probably even encouraged by Kumasawa's storytelling among the servants. If keys vanished, windows stayed unlocked after midnight or rooms were untidy, it was the witch who did it.
This led to Beatrice becoming a kind of valve to vent feelings. Yasu could run about the mansion playing tricks on people whom he felt threatened or at least poorly treated by, using the excuse that it was all the witches doing. Among the servants this idea would be supported or met with a certain degree of punishment.

This cycle continued for Yasu, using Beatrice as a simple excuse for either a lack of decisiveness or the maliciousness of certain deeds. Beatrice became not only a threat towards the outside world, but also a handy escape route.
This is interestingly shown with Kanon's accusation at the beginning of EP2, when he says that Beatrice only helped the relationships grow to see them destroyed in the end.

I wouldn't say that Yasu necessarily believed into the pre-existence of the witch Beatrice as it is told in the stories, but he grew up using Beatrice as an excuse and she became part of his life. In that sense Beatrice really did 'exist', not only as a bomb.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a certain amount of believe into witches and magic, the Golden Land and Beatrice; with all the preexisting narratives flowing together and Kumasawa and Genji practically raising him up to assume that role (though not in the way Yasu imagined Beatrice).
Maria was apparently to a certain extent aware that magic was not 'real', or else she wouldn't have had so many counter-reactions towards people denying it (both in the stories and her diary), but her life was 'better' (or rather easier) with magic existing in it.

I am not denying that this makes him a dangerously insane individual, but I would say it's what makes him tragic. And I would say that this situation was largely nurtured.

[chronotrig]

@haguruma: Beatrice may have began that way, but once the witch pranks started, I don't think Yasu stayed the same. Yasu seems extremely proud of those with pranks, enough that she eventually makes them the basis for her big self-insert novel. Which means they were also a big part of her desired relationship with Battler.

When she does those pranks and spreads this gospel of Beatrice, she isn't blaming a scapegoat. If anything, she's using Bestrice as a tool to get the other servants to respect her. And though her methods are a bit questionable to say the least, she does succeed in making friends with the people who bullied her, and probably makes them take their job more seriously in the future. Which is what her responsibility as the senior servant was in the first place.


In other words, Yasu isn't a person who is overwhelmed by her environment, but someone who tries to control her environment. Her insecurity as a lover doesn't cancel out her pride in other matters. Be it Shkanon, being a role model for Maria, or creating closed rooms, she's willing to be proactive and take risks if there's something she wants to accomplish.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

In other words, Yasu isn't a person who is overwhelmed by her environment, but someone who tries to control her environment. Her insecurity as a lover doesn't cancel out her pride in other matters. Be it Shkanon, being a role model for Maria, or creating closed rooms, she's willing to be proactive and take risks if there's something she wants to accomplish.

That is another way to read her, though I wouldn't say that in my understanding there is not a certain pride or even haughtiness to Yasu.
I would say the problem is that Beatrice creates all those things, not Yasu. The initial scapegoat assumed too much power and became the stronger 'identity' (in a socio-psychological way).

I wouldn't say though that Shkannon was a risk in general, I think the 'identities' of Shannon and Kanon were largely born out of their interaction with George and Jessica respectively (I would go so far to assume by now that Kanon was created solely for Jessica). I kind of got this idea when reading Beatrice's introductory monologue from EP2 again, where she likens the eating of the fruit of knowledge and realizing love to becoming human.

[Drifloon]

Eh, I think Kanon did probably originate as an outlet for Yasu's negative emotions before the thing with Jessica; a lot of the conversations between Shannon and Kanon really seem to stress how Shannon is incapable of feeling resentment towards pretty much anyone, while Kanon expresses the negative sentiments that she isn't able to. But obviously she didn't show that persona to the outside world until the incident with Jessica, and she definitely becomes the defining point of that particular identity.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I mostly agree, but is Yasu really such a helpless figure? I mean, assuming she is the criminal, she was willing to take huge risks to accomplish something. What she did meant the end of her relationships with Battler, George, and Jessica in this world, and almost certainly the end of her normal life whether she planned suicide or not. If you're desperate to avoid responsibility or escape reality, there's got to be a million easier ways to end your life on the island.

I think the problem is there are 2 Yasu. One is doing something harmless like writing tales about mysteries and the other is the main character of said mysteries.

Also in both Yasu there's a side of her she shows to the world and one that's her true self but that she keeps hidden.
She could have told Jessica she was in love with Battler and Jessica would have probably helped her like she did for George, instead she kept this hidden and was fearful she would make fun of her.
She could have tried contacting Battler but she was afraid as well.
She could have told George the truth but instead she just waited for him to figure things out.

Yasu is a quite complex character who's willing to take some risks (at least on the gameboard) but out of it she's a lot less active, at least openly.

Prime Yasu might have been planning an easier way to deal with things but gameboard Yasu chose a more aggressive approach but... well, she's just a character. Even if her life was the same with Yasu till the moment the story started, once the story started KillerYasu is a fantasy the same as Yasu being the witch Beatrice.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Yasu makes Beatrice the "culprit" responsible for ruining her relationships with George and Jessica, but that can't represent what Yasu actually wants. Yasu must have cared deeply for all three of them, or this whole conflict doesn't seem to make any sense. And since Beatrice is her most treasured furniture, assigning her as the culprit apparently doesn't mean that Yasu is pushing responsibility for the situation onto another person or something like fate. After all, in the story, Beatrice knew this might happen since the beginning, just as Yasu must have.

Beatrice doesn't really ruin the relationship as the relationship was apparently doomed from the start.

Let's consider that:

When Battler is around Beato is always stronger than Shannon and Kanon (Shannon being stronger than Kanon). From this we can figure out that Yasu's main interest was Battler, followed by George, followed by Jessica. It doesn't mean she didn't care for George or Jessica just that she has priorities. It's also likely that Yasu was planning for Shannon to 'cease to exist' had Battler returned on a white horse.

Without considering Beato an eventual relationship is rather troublesome.

First of all it's either Shannon or Kanon who's going to have a relationship as Yasu likely doesn't picture a menage a trois.

Second, she should have to trust the person with whom she'll start the relation to be serious and considering she was burn once she likely isn't so prone to trust people.

Third, there's the problem of her being a servant with the following opposition of the parents of George and Jessica.

Forth, if she were to declare herself as the heir there's not only the problem of the consequences this could have (from the parents finding a way to deny her rights as heir to her fearing Jessica or George would refuse her as head) but the fact a relation couldn't exist as she would become George and Jessica's aunt/uncle as well as their cousin and, as their aunt/uncle she can't marry them.

Fifth there's the problem of the terrible wound that makes her body unable to love.

We can say: all this is meaningless George and Jessica love her enough to face all those problems but is she believing this?

Although in her stories George and Jessica are represented as truly in love Kanon is clearly pessimist about everything. Shannon is a little more hopeful apparently but she's also aware the end is coming close so she's not really betting on a long term relationship with George as she knows Beatrice will wipe her out.

So, is it really Beato who ruins the lovestory or is Beato the one who pushes them to act before it's too late?

Beato is more... like Yasu's hidden will. She does as she pleases and she says as she pleases. In Ep 2 she likely told Shannon what were Yasu's fears. Although Shannon's answer is brave it sums basically to a 'I'll content myself with what I got'. She doesn't really counter with a 'you're wrong, I'll survive with George and we'll have a happy life'.

We can draw a parallel between her and the Beato of Ep 8 who drown herself, or even with Lion who was considering to stop fighting until Will reminded him he was Clair's only hope.

I think if Yasu could have chosen she would have wanted to be Beato. Beato's downside however is that, differently from Kanon or Shannon, she wants to act she doesn't want to content herself, to stay passive.
While from a side this must have seemed awesome, on the other side it must have seemed scary and horrible. A side of Yasu wishes for things to never change to stay as they are. Beato brings change and, while change can be good, it can also be not so good especially considering she views herself as someone trapped in a doomed fate.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

So if anything, she's shown as being responsible for making Jessica and George love Yasu more, not for ending their relationships. Even when the crimes start, she offers to take them to the Golden Land, which would make their love eternal.

I'd say that Beatrice isn't made to look evil because she destroys love, but because she creates love that can't be supported.

Yasu, someone scarred, abandoned, and forced to wait for love for years, would likely be desperate for love despite any risks.
Yasu, someone scarred, abandoned, and forced to wait for love for years, could easily convince herself that any future relationship she got into would end much like her first one.
Yasu, someone scarred, abandoned, and forced to wait for love for years, would feel more guilty than anyone else if she unwittingly did to her friends what Battler did to her.

Well, this would match with the Beato of Ep 7 who encouraged Shannon into waiting for Battler and then Battler didn't come back.
There's to say that Beato gets the role of the 'bad guy' because she's willing to do something to get what she wants opposed to Shannon and Kanon who're more passive.

When we look at Ep 6 we see whoever of the 3 who would have wanted to pursue his relation would have been 'mean' to the other 2 as he would have stopped them from pursuing their own relations.

There are only 2 ways to reach a 'happy ending' for all the 3 couples:
doing nothing which however would stop the love stories from advancing
dying and reach the golden land where every wish can come true.

In itself neither of the 'good endings' is good.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I would even go so far as to say that Beatrice became a kind of scapegoat for Yasu to escape situations that were beyond any kind of control. Like when a religious person says, "The devil made me do it". Just like Maria Yasu was raised to believe in a kind of magical element to the world, at least to a certain degree, believing in chance and miracles.

At the beginning Beatrice became an excuse for clumsiness, probably even encouraged by Kumasawa's storytelling among the servants. If keys vanished, windows stayed unlocked after midnight or rooms were untidy, it was the witch who did it.
This led to Beatrice becoming a kind of valve to vent feelings. Yasu could run about the mansion playing tricks on people whom he felt threatened or at least poorly treated by, using the excuse that it was all the witches doing. Among the servants this idea would be supported or met with a certain degree of punishment.

This cycle continued for Yasu, using Beatrice as a simple excuse for either a lack of decisiveness or the maliciousness of certain deeds. Beatrice became not only a threat towards the outside world, but also a handy escape route.
This is interestingly shown with Kanon's accusation at the beginning of EP2, when he says that Beatrice only helped the relationships grow to see them destroyed in the end.

I wouldn't say that Yasu necessarily believed into the pre-existence of the witch Beatrice as it is told in the stories, but he grew up using Beatrice as an excuse and she became part of his life. In that sense Beatrice really did 'exist', not only as a bomb.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a certain amount of believe into witches and magic, the Golden Land and Beatrice; with all the preexisting narratives flowing together and Kumasawa and Genji practically raising him up to assume that role (though not in the way Yasu imagined Beatrice).
Maria was apparently to a certain extent aware that magic was not 'real', or else she wouldn't have had so many counter-reactions towards people denying it (both in the stories and her diary), but her life was 'better' (or rather easier) with magic existing in it.

I am not denying that this makes him a dangerously insane individual, but I would say it's what makes him tragic. And I would say that this situation was largely nurtured.

This reminds me of a book of Marcia Grad, 'The Princess Who Believed in Fairy Tales' in which she talks about the story of a woman, Victoria, who ends up marrying an abusive man like it was a magical fairy tale.

There's plenty of parallel with Yasu and her way to face life.

Among them there's the imaginary friend of the main character, Vicky, whom is actually a personification of some sides of the main character.
Blaming Vicky is, in the book, more a parallel to blaming certain sides of Victoria's character for what's going wrong.
The same probably applies to Beato. Yasu knows there's no Beato, Beato is just a personification of certain things about her, some of which good and some of which bad.
Blaming Beato is more likely like blaming a part of herself... but the interesting peart is that while blaming Beato in front of others is 'safe' as she shift the blame, at the same time she would like for Beato to be recognized.

I think Yasu is filled with conflicting feelings which doesn't really make easy to pin her down to simple definitions.

Originally Posted by haguruma

That is another way to read her, though I wouldn't say that in my understanding there is not a certain pride or even haughtiness to Yasu.
I would say the problem is that Beatrice creates all those things, not Yasu. The initial scapegoat assumed too much power and became the stronger 'identity' (in a socio-psychological way).

I wouldn't say though that Shkannon was a risk in general, I think the 'identities' of Shannon and Kanon were largely born out of their interaction with George and Jessica respectively (I would go so far to assume by now that Kanon was created solely for Jessica). I kind of got this idea when reading Beatrice's introductory monologue from EP2 again, where she likens the eating of the fruit of knowledge and realizing love to becoming human.

More than Beato growing in power I'll say Beato is likely the representation of Yasu's... let's call it true inner self, while Shannon is the face with which she presents herself to the outside world.

As she grows she learns she is expected to act as 'Shannon' but, sadly, her own wishes differ from what she's expected to do, from how she's expected to act.

Beato takes charge when Yasu decides to act according to her wills, not according to how she's supposed to act.

The whole about Beato being hidden probably represent this. She was supposed to act in a certain way, to be a certain way so she hid inside herself all that she wasn't supposed to feel or want and called this 'Beato'.

In a fashion Umineko is also a psychological tale about the inner turmoils of a girl that turns everything into a fairy tale. Tricks are 'magic', things that can't be found are 'taken by Gaap', the wish to prank others and to have a certain degree of control on others takes the shape of 'Beato', the perfect servant she's supposed to be is 'Shannon', the regret and bitterness are 'Kanon', the older servant who helped her is her magic teacher, certain becames Lambda, miracles Bern, guns the Siesta bunnies, which stakes are the 7 sisters.

It's all very similar to how Maria called the 'bad witch' Rosa when she was mean with her.

[GuestSpeaker]

What I found interesting about Beato's little monologue in ep 2 (apart from how much it reeked of self-hate and tied in to what Eva said), was apart from Shannon seeming not to know Beatrice (whether that be just for the narrative or because of forgetting her after creating her) was that it was all about Beato teaching Shannon to accept love. So I guess until then Shannon and Kanon had assumed they would never love because they had given it all to Beatrice, but it didn't work. Then when Shannon later tells Beato it is she who doesn't know how to love, all hell breaks loose.


Also, the first thing Jessica says to Shannon about George is that he is a family man, to which Shannon says "I am not qualified.....". Ouch.

[GuestSpeaker]

It's all very similar to how Maria called the 'bad witch' Rosa when she was mean with her.

Except at the end of ep 2 Maria admits that she knows there is only really one Rosa, and that's why she takes the good with the bad. I am not sure Yasu ever was that sane haha

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Except at the end of ep 2 Maria admits that she knows there is only really one Rosa, and that's why she takes the good with the bad. I am not sure Yasu ever was that sane haha

Yasu likely knows as she's represented as in control of the 3 however the narrative does its best to present not Yasu but her 3 personas as if they were 3 separate entities as she likely wanted they looked like to the outside world.
The narrative stopped talking about Yasu when Yasu became Beato, after all, while we can say her body became Shannon.
We can see Yasu only in 2 more moments: one in Ep 6 when she creates Beato and the other in EP 7 when she passes the bud of love from Shannon to Beato.
Otherwise it's all Beato, Shannon and Kanon.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Otherwise it's all Beato, Shannon and Kanon.

Though I think it is wrong to say that we do not see Yasu. Yasu is merely seperating everything about himself into 3 entities, but then again including 3 seperate narratives (that of Beatrice Castiglioni, Beatrice II and the ghost of Akujikijima) into one of the 3 entities, Beatrice.

No, I would say that he actually splits himself into 4 entities, because the role of the family head, the master of the mansion, is played by him as well. I am still very sure that the Kinzo we see in Episode 4 is actually just another extension of Yasu.
If we consider what we learned in Our Confession, that Natsuhi and Krauss are made into accomplices, then look at EP4, we could assume that Kinzo's anger is actually Yasu's anger.

[Drifloon]

That's quite an interesting thought, actually. I've never really thought about it like that, but the fantasy narrative's portrayal of an insane Kinzo who's willing to murder his whole family to regain his lost love...definitely doesn't seem too far off from some interpretations of Yasu.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

That's quite an interesting thought, actually. I've never really thought about it like that, but the fantasy narrative's portrayal of an insane Kinzo who's willing to murder his whole family to regain his lost love...definitely doesn't seem too far off from some interpretations of Yasu.

Yes, I thought about this a lot, but it would really fit, wouldn't it?
In EP2 Rosa is up in the study and claims to have met Kinzo. At the end of this same Episode, after Yasu has supposedly died, the Kinzo in the study is a silent, unmoving puppet.
In EP4 Kinzo is angry with Krauss for him being unable to keep the siblings occupied and steps into the game himself. In the dining room he summons the Chiesters (which we know are the Winchester guns that Yasu is in possession of) and a "violent storm" is raging through the room. This could also be seen as Yasu supplying the adults with weapons and them shooting at each other, couldn't it?

When we see not Kinzo, but the "master of the island fulfilling his pact with the witch and sacrificing all his possession for the return to the Golden Land", this would fit Yasu much more, wouldn't it?
Whenever the servants talk about the piece Kinzo in terms of his actions on the board it is always "the master of the mansion". But in 1986 this is not Kinzo anymore...it is Yasu, isn't it?

[Drifloon]

In EP2 Rosa is up in the study and claims to have met Kinzo. At the end of this same Episode, after Yasu has supposedly died, the Kinzo in the study is a silent, unmoving puppet.

Uh, he is? He seemed pretty lively as far as I remember...but that scene's weird anyway.

[Oroboro]

She could have told George the truth but instead she just waited for him to figure things out.

Just wanted to jump into this conversation and say I believe Yasu tried to, well, not outright tell him, but slowly try to hint at things which were important. George however, completely and consciously ignores whatever she tries to tell him, blowing off her furniture complex as 'cute', too wrapped up in his own shoujo romance fantasy to care about who she is as a person. Seen here in spectacular form.

Spoiler for George. >_<:

In regards to Yasu's character in general, I've been following this recently. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UtKwtM754/edit
It's a liveblog/analysis / reread of EP 1 that heavily tries to focus on seeing things from Yasu's perspective, and while a bit unstructured, offers some really interesting insights on who she was as a person, as well as pointing out a lot of seemingly random bits in the narrative that take on a whole new meaning with hindsight.

For instance, the very first time we see Yasu is as Kanon, and when Battler walks up greeting him as his usual exuberant self, Kanon just stands there, mouth hanging open and blushing. While the narrative just brushes it off as "Kanon being shy", I think it's more likely one of the few moments when Yasu legitimately breaks character.

Spoiler for Yasu as Kanon:

Anyway, just wanted to share. >_>

[Dormin]

Hey i just wanted to join in the wild speculation thread, just finished umineko. Anyway i don't believe Yasu to be the real culprit (maybe that is pretty common theory?) and about the posts above me, episode 2 has been really hard to cope with not believing Yasu is the real culprit.

I think that rosa is the culprit in episode 2: they did mention the scene, where rosa visits kinzo (already dead) and a golden butterfly lands on her back. Later she clearly lies that she was talking with the father, and kinzo is kinda beyond the point of talking.

So it is clear that rosa was somewhere else and is lying about meeting kinzo. My guess would be that she found the gold and thus "beatrice" started killing everyone out of greed.

Of course this is just theory and i don't have much to back it up expect one scene and intuition. What makes me wonder is the scene with kanon killing people, as it obviously isn't real kanon/yasu. I thought that maybe the servants figured out rosa is after them and are trying to put pressure onto her by faking deaths? Any thoughts?

[Drifloon]

Most people would believe that Rosa is an accomplice in EP2 rather than the culprit; Yasu presumably bribed her with the gold. This makes just as much sense of the scene with the butterfly landing on her back, in all honesty. Rosa culprit theory seems to be the 'red herring trap' in EP2 (Bernkastel mentions that there's a huge weak spot in EP2 and she wants to take advantage of it but doesn't like how obvious it is), like Eva culprit theory in EP3.

Ryukishi has confirmed in an interview that Shannon is the culprit for the murders in Natsuhi's room, at the very least (incidentally, this scenario is the only one in EP2 which seems to be completely impossible for Rosa; it plays a similar role to Nanjo's murder in EP3, suddenly casting doubt on the 'obvious culprit' at the very end of the episode by presenting a murder that's impossible for them).

The idea of the servants setting up the scenario with Nanjo and Kumasawa is pretty well accepted. I personally believe that Yasu manipulated them into suspecting Rosa and setting this up; then Yasu killed Nanjo and Kumasawa after they were out of sight.

Originally Posted by Oroboro

In regards to Yasu's character in general, I've been following this recently. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UtKwtM754/edit
It's a liveblog/analysis / reread of EP 1 that heavily tries to focus on seeing things from Yasu's perspective, and while a bit unstructured, offers some really interesting insights on who she was as a person, as well as pointing out a lot of seemingly random bits in the narrative that take on a whole new meaning with hindsight.

Wow, this looks really interesting, though kinda overwhelmingly big. I'll definitely set aside some time to read through this.

[Renall]

The current theory trending here seems to be along the lines of "Yasu intended that her Shkanontrice character be the culprit, but she herself may or may not have been the culprit in 'real life,' and if she wasn't it's either because somebody else was or nothing actually happened (i.e. an accident)."

With obvious variations on that theme. I don't think it's easily disputed that the author at least intended that we believe Shkanontrice to be the solution.

[Dormin]

I also have read the interviews. Never actually concidered rosa in episode 2 to be a trap to lure readers in, but now i think it might be possible.

And back to Yasu, i guess it was at least semi-canonly (or in golden text of the creator, or something) at least heavily hinted to be answer to beatos boards. However, i can't just accept it:

1. It forgets the heart: umineko pictures love (expect kyrie, that chick is crazy) as a beautiful thing, not as something that forces you to kill.
2. Personally i find it hard to believe that Yasu would just flip, killing everyone in the progress. S/he was written more like a sad and tragic character
3. Episode 6: duel of lovers. Battler loses first. George wins. If we accept that the duel is "the heart" of yasu, wouldn't that mean Yasu truly loves george? Even more than battler? Doesn't that mean if we thin yasu to be culprit, he always kills the man he truly loves?
4. I always thought that yasu was more interested in the mystery-part in detective stories, rather than actual murders. He liked puzzles, not the blood.
5. When battler figures out "the truth" in episode 5, he immidiately forgives beatrice. Doesn't this kinda heavily imply that beatrice wasn't a mindless killer after all?
6. If we think about accomplices i find it hard to believe people like genji would actually go with mindless massacre. I guess nanjo is bribable as shown, but genji is heavily against incest, and imo murder is kinda worse. I think that at least genji would realize kinda quikly if yasu was going to flip, i think he was kinda watching over him since childhood

Sorry if numbering my thoughts looks bit cocky, but these are at least some of the points why i must disagree with the hints given us in the interviews.

What about if ruykishi is just a big troll and wants to confuse us?

[Renall]

Yes, all of that is why people have a very hard time believing Yasu to be the culprit of what we refer to as Rokkenjima-Prime, that is, "reality" in the Umineko world (whatever it is, if it exists).

However, even if you never intend to hurt anybody you can write a fictional story in which the character who represents you kills everybody. The only evidence we have of Yasu expressing any intention to harm anybody comes from the first two stories, and that doesn't really prove an actual intent to harm anybody, and indeed I have a hard time believing that Yasu would succeed in causing everyone to die even if Yasu actually wanted to do so. The rest of the stories were written by somebody else, so if the Beatrice character does something we can't even relate that back to her original creator's intentions.

And yeah nobody gets Genji's deal, but it's easier to explain if you buy "Genji wouldn't have behaved like this IRL, but in stories he can because whatever, he's a butler robot."

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Though I think it is wrong to say that we do not see Yasu. Yasu is merely seperating everything about himself into 3 entities, but then again including 3 seperate narratives (that of Beatrice Castiglioni, Beatrice II and the ghost of Akujikijima) into one of the 3 entities, Beatrice.

They're not Yasu, but parts of her. To get Yasu you should mix them in the right recipe which we can try to guess but which we don't have.
The 3 identities in which Yasu is separating herself are pretty different. If we take Kanon he would react in a certain way, Shannon in another Beato in another one but whcih of the three would be the way Yasu would react? A mix of the three? Or one of the three would be the predominant?

Although Shannon wins Kanon in the love duel is it because Kanon loved Jessica less than Shannon loved George (and therefore Yasu loved Jessica less than George) or because Yasu believed there were more chances for her if she were to leave with George? Or it was solely because George asked her to marry while Jessica merely asked Kanon to try and get close?
Or because she felt more female than male?

Yasu's options differs from the ones Shannon, Kanon and Beato had. Kanon doesn't love George or Battler but Yasu likely had feelings for them. Are Kanon's, Shannon's and Beato's feeling of love the same as the ones of Yasu?
I wouldn't say that because for Kanon the most important person is Jessica, for Shannon is George, for Beato is Battler.

So yes, we see hints to how Yasu is/was as her characteristics were spit in 3 people but we don't see Yasu as a whole if not in 2 short instances.

Originally Posted by haguruma

No, I would say that he actually splits himself into 4 entities, because the role of the family head, the master of the mansion, is played by him as well. I am still very sure that the Kinzo we see in Episode 4 is actually just another extension of Yasu.
If we consider what we learned in Our Confession, that Natsuhi and Krauss are made into accomplices, then look at EP4, we could assume that Kinzo's anger is actually Yasu's anger.

I've considered the... let's call him Kinzo-ghost of Ep 4 could be another representation of Yasu as well. After all it was likely Yasu who showed up at the family conference and that killed the ones who died there.

However for the full of Kinzo showed in Umineko there's a huge chance he's created by a bit of everyone. The one that praises Natsuhi in Ep 1-5for example is likely solely in Natsuhi's head. The one Rosa met in EP 2 is either a lie or in Rosa's head. The one of EP 3 is likely solely a fantasy scene insertion.

Originally Posted by Oroboro

Just wanted to jump into this conversation and say I believe Yasu tried to, well, not outright tell him, but slowly try to hint at things which were important. George however, completely and consciously ignores whatever she tries to tell him, blowing off her furniture complex as 'cute', too wrapped up in his own shoujo romance fantasy to care about who she is as a person. Seen here in spectacular form.

Spoiler for George. >_<:

George is pretty self centered in his whole relationship with Shannon and, although he brushes away her furniture complex as unimportant he gives me the feeling he feels superior of her. Be it because he's older, a male, the grandson of her master or because that's how is character is, it's up to speculation but personally I'm not very fond of the way he handles her.

There's to say though it's not exactly easy to guess which message Shannon is trying to give him.

I mean... she can't have kids. Her breasts are completely fake. There's the chance she originally was a boy raised into the belief he was a girl. She's George's cousin as well as aunt/uncle. She ended up in ths predictment because George's grandad had sex with his illegittimate daughter no one knew about then said daughter died and she was entruested to Natsuhi who tried to kill her by making her fall from a cliff but she survived and Genji thought this was the perfect solution.

The more one goes on the less likely all this seem possible. George knew Shannon by a lifetime as a normal, shy servant girl.
It's more likely to expect she calls herself furniture because Genji does so and she feels inferior in status to him (a thing that some adults like to underline) than due to all this mess.

Originally Posted by Oroboro

In regards to Yasu's character in general, I've been following this recently. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UtKwtM754/edit
It's a liveblog/analysis / reread of EP 1 that heavily tries to focus on seeing things from Yasu's perspective, and while a bit unstructured, offers some really interesting insights on who she was as a person, as well as pointing out a lot of seemingly random bits in the narrative that take on a whole new meaning with hindsight.

I'm going to give it a look, thanks for pointing it out!

Originally Posted by Oroboro

For instance, the very first time we see Yasu is as Kanon, and when Battler walks up greeting him as his usual exuberant self, Kanon just stands there, mouth hanging open and blushing. While the narrative just brushes it off as "Kanon being shy", I think it's more likely one of the few moments when Yasu legitimately breaks character.

Spoiler for Yasu as Kanon:

Anyway, just wanted to share. >_>

I've found pretty interesting the first meeting between Kanon and Battler. In the manga this seems to be even more underlined when Kanon thinks again at his meeting with Battler... The first time I saw it I got the feeling Kanon was crushing on him...

Originally Posted by Dormin

3. Episode 6: duel of lovers. Battler loses first. George wins. If we accept that the duel is "the heart" of yasu, wouldn't that mean Yasu truly loves george? Even more than battler? Doesn't that mean if we thin yasu to be culprit, he always kills the man he truly loves?

Battler doesn't lose, he's forced to leave the game because trapped in a logic error, or, if you want to apply it to Rokkenjima and not to the fantasy narrative, because he was away from the island for 6 years. This gave George the time to declare himself a thing that pushed Yasu to chose him over Jessica.
However, although Beato and therefore Yasu's feelings for Battler were supposed to disappear with that choice, in the end they survived and Beato/Yasu tried to get Battler back.

Originally Posted by Dormin

6. If we think about accomplices i find it hard to believe people like genji would actually go with mindless massacre. I guess nanjo is bribable as shown, but genji is heavily against incest, and imo murder is kinda worse. I think that at least genji would realize kinda quikly if yasu was going to flip, i think he was kinda watching over him since childhood

Well, we don't really know which scale of values Genji have. Some people can be strongly against a crime but have no problem with another.
However I think that in Prime no one was so easy to bribe as in the gameboard.

It's a common theory that Yasu was the killer in the games but that's highly unlikely she wanted to kill people in Prime. Even the meta narrative supports the idea all Beato wanted to do was to kill the characters/pieces of a story, not real people.

[GuestSpeaker]

Episode 6: duel of lovers. Battler loses first. George wins. If we accept that the duel is "the heart" of yasu, wouldn't that mean Yasu truly loves george? Even more than battler? Doesn't that mean if we thin yasu to be culprit, he always kills the man he truly loves?

Taken from a later interview, meta Yasu at least (and possibly real Yasu if you subscribe to Yasu = Ikuko) loved all three of them enough to want to keep the lid on the catbox by killing off Beato so all romances could survive (maybe that is where Ikuko came from. Don't forget, according to Ryu Battler is apparently found by Ikuko years later. Suicide attempt I wonder?). In Ryu's mind, she loved eached of them too much to even consider letting one of the romances go, to the point she would kill herself. He must really have laughed when people kept asking him if the romances were real (or been sad no-one got it).


As for the first meeting, on my first re-read of ep 1 after getting Shkannontrice, I read that scene as Kanon saying "even I (have some feelings for Battler....)" due to Battler's white knight carrying of fertiliser. I mean, sure, Yasu says she transferred the seed of love from Shannon to Beato, but she clearly wasn't as in control of love as she liked (It seems to me she assumed this had turned off all ability to love for the other two, at least from what i read in ep 2). Maybe she also isn't completely good at keeping her feelings confined to one personality. Leading a double life isn't easy after all...