[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by Dormin

Has anyone thought that maybe Nanjo just sucks at being a doctor? Who he did ever save?

Well, there was Beatrice...oh, wait, he didn't. He saved Yasu, sort of, but not so much hir sexuality. Then again, that might have been a congenital condition; Lion's gender is left conspicuously vague, and I can't imagine any injury even from a near fatal impact causing permanent genital deformity.

My problem with a Yasu culprit scenarios is, even more than the perversion of Knox's 1st and Van Dine's 11th, is the 'whydunnit'. The motive for this scale of murder is so batshit insane that it lacks credibility, and you may has well replace her with a Fu Manchu twisting Chinaman. At least with the siblings you've got financial desperation, a history of resentments, competitiveness and a certainty that everyone else would do unto others what they don't do to them first, but it's the knowledge of a bomb that could cover their tracks that really liberates them to do it. Yasu isn't greedy or needy, doesn't have a personal grudge against anyone except Battler, who slighted her by betraying her expectations when he was young, rash and melodramatic.

[Dormin]

more than the perversion of Knox's 1st and Van Dine's 11th

I don't know, I really don't... If we take it that Yasu is Shkannontrice then the culprit is actually mentioned, but the trick only is crossdressing. Therefore "Yasu" is not a new, unmentioned character. I don't know if this is in clear violation with the Knox's 1st. I guess it is a matter of interpretation.

Van Dine's 11th:

“11. Servants—such as butlers, footmen, valets, game-keepers, cooks, and the like—must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. It is unsatisfactory, and makes the reader feel that his time has been wasted. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person—one that wouldn’t ordinarily come under suspicion; for if the crime was the sordid work of a menial, the author would have had no business to embalm it in book-form.”

I always thought that this should be viewed not literally, but as a "culprit cannot be anyone that is obvious", and the part "servant cannot be the culprit" is just a joke because "the butler did it" has become sort of a cliche.

But yes, Yasumotives are on bit shaky ground. In the end there are many factors and flaws that make make at least me consider the possibility that she never planned on killing anyone. But then again, the line between boards and prime should be noted and how this affects Yasu as "culprit".

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Well, there was Beatrice...oh, wait, he didn't. He saved Yasu, sort of, but not so much hir sexuality. Then again, that might have been a congenital condition; Lion's gender is left conspicuously vague, and I can't imagine any injury even from a near fatal impact causing permanent genital deformity.

My problem with a Yasu culprit scenarios is, even more than the perversion of Knox's 1st and Van Dine's 11th, is the 'whydunnit'. The motive for this scale of murder is so batshit insane that it lacks credibility, and you may has well replace her with a Fu Manchu twisting Chinaman. At least with the siblings you've got financial desperation, a history of resentments, competitiveness and a certainty that everyone else would do unto others what they don't do to them first, but it's the knowledge of a bomb that could cover their tracks that really liberates them to do it. Yasu isn't greedy or needy, doesn't have a personal grudge against anyone except Battler, who slighted her by betraying her expectations when he was young, rash and melodramatic.

Actually it can very well be that the Yasu of the gameboard isn't that kind.
In creating PieceYasu PrimeYasu pushed on her all her angry feelings toward... well, everyone.
Let's think at the scene in which Maria kills Rosa multiple times in horrible ways. At the moment Maria is furious at Rosa so in her fantasy she does so... although I think in the real world she would be more prone to protect Rosa, not kill her.
In the same way PieceYasu might be just Yasu's anger acting.
It's pretty easy to kill someone in a fantasy scene so as long as the Yasu culprit theory work only in tales we can accept an interpretation of Yasu with no problems in killing.
It'll be different though if Yasu is/was trying to be culprit in Prime as well in the same gruesome way she is in the gameboard.

For it to be believable we need to assume Yasu's representation in Ep 7 is terribly biased. Which can be (Kinzo's representation was biased after all) but if that's true it destroy any chance to feel sympathetic toward her.
She became a manipulative liar who first tried to trick others into taking part to her Beatrice cult, then tried to seduce George when she failed to have Battler and when she realized after all she still wanted Battler or simply couldn't deal with the insult of Battler forgetting them blackmailed, tricked and used everyone to get her revenge in the worst possible way.
It became a little hard to like her if that's the truth about her.

[magnum12]

Originally Posted by Dormin

First of all we should consider if Ryu has any kind of knowledge in guns. If OC said that Yasu also has a pistol, okay, but I can easily see different kind of wounds explained by Ryu simply not thinking about subject at all. Maybe the size of the exit wound etc etc never played important factor in the story, I myself haven't even considered this possibility, as I believed that any "hole" in a body can be written of as a gunshot.

But there are also other explanation for the variable sizes of the gunholes, like for example passage of the bullet inside the corpse. If the bullet contacts any major bone inside the body, the bullet usually shatters and results in much larger exit wound. If the shot is "clean" the gunshot wound can be relatively small.

M-maybe the iconic shannonhat slumped over the wound?

The first one I find hard to swallow because Ryu seems to be an author that does his research well. Heck, with Higurashi,

Spoiler for Higurashi spoilers:

Hinimizawa Syndrome

I found to be a really entertaining solution because its an extremely plausible solution when analyzed scientifically. Barring minor creative liberties, it really showed that Ryu did his homework on the subject matter. I've actually established a theory as to the actual

Spoiler for higurashi spoilers:

identity of the parasite based on HS' characteristics

. Considering that my field of study is related to this, its double reason to be intrigued.

Due to how he does his research, I find it rather hard to beleive that R7 would make such a critical research flub in a genre where accuracy is pretty important. I do know from an interview that R7 said that Yasu doesn't know anything about guns. This actually throws another hole into the Yasu culprit theory as it relates to EP4. I find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't know anything about guns would know about a gun being compatible with multiple types of ammo. This also brings into question Yasu's actual competence with a firearm. Normally this is a moot point due to short range, but it's really important when it relates to the 2nd twilight, where the most plausible solution given circumstances seems to be a long range shot in bad weather.

The second and 4th point are actually related to my major grievance with the Yasu theory in terms of the inconsistency with Shannon's deaths. Since we can reasonably assume that the angle of the shot, the range of the shot (obviously point blank), the type of gun used (a pistol as per OC), and the type of ammo used are the same, the wound should be identical in every way. The Shannon hat is actually pretty strong evidence that there is an inconsistency in regards to the bullet piercing Shannon's head. If it truly penetrated Shannon's head (which it most certainly should given the circumstances are identical to the death in EP4) and if the hat was in a "slumped" angle, why isn't there a hole in the hat nor is a there a big blood stain on the back side of the hat (based on the manga version)?

Changing topic to Kinzo's depiction, I'd say the EP7 depiction of Kinzo as a disgusting rapist monster is dead on. Evidence for this being true comes from precident sent in EP5 with just how low his method of "obtaining" Natsui stooped. This sets a precedent for the question of whether Kinzo's heart is worthy of being understood. I'd argue no, it isn't, by sole virtue of him being a rapist and how he seemed to enjoy treating Natsui like garbage.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by Dormin

I don't know, I really don't... If we take it that Yasu is Shkannontrice then the culprit is actually mentioned, but the trick only is crossdressing. Therefore "Yasu" is not a new, unmentioned character. I don't know if this is in clear violation with the Knox's 1st. I guess it is a matter of interpretation.

I agree it's more interpretive than clear-cut. If Red declarations identify Shannon and Kanon as distinctly unique existences, then Beatrice and Yasu would also have to be considered as such. Now Shannon and Kanon fall under the VD's 11th, Yasu falls under Knox 1st, and the only question is whether Beatrice can get a pass. However, if they're all considered to be one character, then it's certainly a violation of Knox 10th.

Van Dine's 11th:


I always thought that this should be viewed not literally, but as a "culprit cannot be anyone that is obvious", and the part "servant cannot be the culprit" is just a joke because "the butler did it" has become sort of a cliche.

I'm just going by the revised version Willard had cited in Red (Rule #11. It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!,) since they obviously don't all apply, and even Will points that out by citing one without the Red (but still makes a kill with it! Ill gotten gains!) One of R07's critiques of Van Dine was that it was outdated, but it was so full of critical response to contemporary examples that it couldn't possibly stand the test of time -- these rules are so short-sighted, narrow-minded and redundant it just looks like his personal bitch list. But there's a reason some of them were given in Red (I put Will's citations at the end of this page: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Van_Dine%27s_Commandments)

Originally Posted by jjblue1

For it to be believable we need to assume Yasu's representation in Ep 7 is terribly biased. Which can be (Kinzo's representation was biased after all) but if that's true it destroy any chance to feel sympathetic toward her.

But whose bias would it be? It's not an adversarial board here, Bernkastel is effectively Auau's reader, and has effectively passed that job on to Willard, giving him omniscient authority for the story. Bernkastel has no interest in painting Beatrice as sympathetic (though of course her late show for Ange and Lion is definitely heavily biased.) Willard may want to believe the motive is in the heart, but he's not as naive a sucker as Battler, and will analyze more objectively to seek out contradictions. And Claire is just a mouthpiece for a handful of characters who share one body.

[AuraTwilight]

One of R07's critiques of Van Dine was that...

Excuse me, back up a second. When did Ryukishi say any of these things? It seems like you're just inferring all of this yourself. This isn't something Ryukishi can be claimed to think.

But whose bias would it be? It's not an adversarial board here, Bernkastel is effectively Auau's reader, and has effectively passed that job on to Willard, giving him omniscient authority for the story. Bernkastel has no interest in painting Beatrice as sympathetic (though of course her late show for Ange and Lion is definitely heavily biased.) Willard may want to believe the motive is in the heart, but he's not as naive a sucker as Battler, and will analyze more objectively to seek out contradictions. And Claire is just a mouthpiece for a handful of characters who share one body.

Uh...I think you answered your own question here. Claire is telling the story. Claire is channeling Yasu's memories, sentiments, and emotions.

[Dormin]

Returning to the topic of guns, has anyone ever addressed the issue of actual sound of a gunshot?

The scale of the island (like between mansion and guesthouse) hasn't been properly addressed iirc, but the sound of gunshot is really, really loud. At least everyone in the same building should be able to hear a clear bang, and it would probably carry much further.

Aside from that, the thought of anyone actually firing a gun indoors without any protective equipment like earplugs is also kinda wild thought, though not impossible in any way. I guess they could identify the culprit by checking which person has trouble hearing because damaged ears.

Maybe the culprit was actually an ex spec-ops soldier and synchronized timing of the gunshots with the distant thunder.

[magnum12]

I actually have a theory (backed up by science) that answers the bulk of those questions.

The culprit is using a supressor for most of the murders.

As for the science to back it up:

The decible rating for a thunder storm is 120 dB, about 10 dB short of the pain threshold for loudness in humans.

The noise rating for a rifle can be anywhere between 140 and 170 dB. This is louder than a pistol.

Suppressors lower the dB of a gunshot by about 30-40 dB not to mention altering the noise profile of the shot.

The sound emited by rifle fire is low frequency. It is also of a lower frequency than pistol and shotgun fire.

That last one is pretty important since low frequency sound waves are much more effective at punching through most systems anad methods of sound dampening. Now for the kicker.

Suppressors that are compatible with Winchiesters exist.

Of course I'm making the assumption that the island is not that far away from the storm so its going to be pretty loud outside. Still, this is further evidence of Yasu being incompetent with fire arms if she doesn't take the noise of the gun into account when doing all of this stuff. Unless this is supposed to be some "truth hidden in the boards" style warning about Prime's culprit being someone who IS competent with fire arms.

[GreyZone]

In EP6 Kanon was having a flashback about Kinzo showing him how to use firearms, even letting him use them for test shots, if I remember correctly.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

In EP6 Kanon was having a flashback about Kinzo showing him how to use firearms, even letting him use them for test shots, if I remember correctly.

I think I remember Kanon also thinking/saying something about how Shannon is better with firearms than he is. Can't remember exactly when.

On a different issue, I've been wondering about something. Do people here think that Kinzo knew about Yasu at the time when he had the epitaph set up? I was looking around on a blog that was talking about the series, and it seemed to assume that the reason Kinzo left the epitaph open for anybody to try was because he knew Yasu was alive and on the island.

(The argument was, I think, that Kinzo's sexism is such that had Lion been born female, he would not have let her be a candidate for the headship - as he certainly didn't do that with Beatrice 2. But that with Lion/Yasu being born male, and Kinzo knowing about the not being dead thing, he could make the epitaph open to anyone, believing it would go to Yasu.)

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by magnum12

Changing topic to Kinzo's depiction, I'd say the EP7 depiction of Kinzo as a disgusting rapist monster is dead on. Evidence for this being true comes from precident sent in EP5 with just how low his method of "obtaining" Natsui stooped. This sets a precedent for the question of whether Kinzo's heart is worthy of being understood. I'd argue no, it isn't, by sole virtue of him being a rapist and how he seemed to enjoy treating Natsui like garbage.

Honestly I don't really get Kinzo's depiction in Ep 7.
I mean the episode first seems to imply Kinzo raped his daughter then everyone is more or less cool with it?
Okay, so Genji isn't exactly cool but the general stance is: don't judge Kinzo harshly it was so hard for him to resist but he tried...
Even Beatrice's behaviour on the matter are glossed over.
Was she raped as she said no but Kinzo didn't listen her or did she says yes out of obligation leading Kinzo to delude himself she was cool with it?
In the end it seems she wasn't so cool with it but again the whole issue is taken rather lightly.
Sure, Kinzo has a position of power but still...

(and I'll never understand Genji's plan. He's afraid Yasu will end like her mother so he hid her under another name and then... get her back on Rokkenjima because he hopes Kinzo will recognize her/bond with her or something. Because a man who jumped on his daughter would hesitate to jump on a female servant that might look like her. Yeah, a female servant is definitely off limits for Kinzo. Nothing like a daughter or a male grandchild with genital troubles. And yes, Yasu's life is totally better now that she's forced to work as a servant at such a young age under a mistress who doesn't want her around and with coworkers who're envious of the fact she gets a single room. Absolutely better. It couldn't be any cooler if she had remained in the orphanage and had gotten adopted...)

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

I'm just going by the revised version Willard had cited in Red (Rule #11. It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!,) since they obviously don't all apply, and even Will points that out by citing one without the Red (but still makes a kill with it! Ill gotten gains!) One of R07's critiques of Van Dine was that it was outdated, but it was so full of critical response to contemporary examples that it couldn't possibly stand the test of time -- these rules are so short-sighted, narrow-minded and redundant it just looks like his personal bitch list. But there's a reason some of them were given in Red (I put Will's citations at the end of this page: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Van_Dine%27s_Commandments)

Well the no servant culprit rule hadit's role back then.
Not only the servant culprit was cliche like the dog remaining silent because the culprit was a family member but some considered it a little classist.
In other words it makes things look like as the lords, masters, higher ups would be good guys while the servants would be the ones who would commit crimes against the oh so noble lords.
It reminds me of when the doctor in 10 little indians claims he can't be the culprit because he's an important, respectable person.

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

But whose bias would it be? It's not an adversarial board here, Bernkastel is effectively Auau's reader, and has effectively passed that job on to Willard, giving him omniscient authority for the story. Bernkastel has no interest in painting Beatrice as sympathetic (though of course her late show for Ange and Lion is definitely heavily biased.) Willard may want to believe the motive is in the heart, but he's not as naive a sucker as Battler, and will analyze more objectively to seek out contradictions. And Claire is just a mouthpiece for a handful of characters who share one body.

Well the narrative of Yasu's life is from Yasu's point of view. It doesn't show scenes unfavourable to Yasu When Yasu prank a servant it's all Beatrice's fault. Shannon tells Yasu she's special. It's not Yasu's fault is she loses things, it's Beatrice. The other servants were definitely mean and should have been more tolerant with her even if she put them in trouble (the shared responsibility thing). Yasu will be totally cool in accepting Kinzo, will not want the gold or the leadership of the family (red later on will reveal she wasn't so cool with the whole story and we know she used Kinzo's money and her authority on the servants).

Originally Posted by Dormin

Returning to the topic of guns, has anyone ever addressed the issue of actual sound of a gunshot?

The scale of the island (like between mansion and guesthouse) hasn't been properly addressed iirc, but the sound of gunshot is really, really loud. At least everyone in the same building should be able to hear a clear bang, and it would probably carry much further.

Aside from that, the thought of anyone actually firing a gun indoors without any protective equipment like earplugs is also kinda wild thought, though not impossible in any way. I guess they could identify the culprit by checking which person has trouble hearing because damaged ears.

Maybe the culprit was actually an ex spec-ops soldier and synchronized timing of the gunshots with the distant thunder.

Well, if it was thundering a lot people might not bother to notice that the gunshot doesn't match with the lightning so it can't be a thunder. Though the house seems to be mostly soundproof because people basically hear nothing.

LOL, it'll be fun if the solution to Erika hears nothing from Battler's room was: the room is soundproof and in order to let Erika hear him screaming Battler had to open the window or the door. Everything else that happened while the door/window was close couldn't be heard by Erika.

Though likely Yasu used some trick to silence the gun.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I think I remember Kanon also thinking/saying something about how Shannon is better with firearms than he is. Can't remember exactly when.

On a different issue, I've been wondering about something. Do people here think that Kinzo knew about Yasu at the time when he had the epitaph set up? I was looking around on a blog that was talking about the series, and it seemed to assume that the reason Kinzo left the epitaph open for anybody to try was because he knew Yasu was alive and on the island.

(The argument was, I think, that Kinzo's sexism is such that had Lion been born female, he would not have let her be a candidate for the headship - as he certainly didn't do that with Beatrice 2. But that with Lion/Yasu being born male, and Kinzo knowing about the not being dead thing, he could make the epitaph open to anyone, believing it would go to Yasu.)

It seems Kinzo had suspicions although I've no idea if he though Shannon or Kanon were Lion.
Sure thing it was rather suspicious for Genji to hire such a young servant... but maybe Kinzo couldn't just wrap his mind over his grandson/son being now a grandaughter/daughter so he suspected Genji was hiding something but never figured out Lion was there.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I think I remember Kanon also thinking/saying something about how Shannon is better with firearms than he is. Can't remember exactly when.

On a different issue, I've been wondering about something. Do people here think that Kinzo knew about Yasu at the time when he had the epitaph set up? I was looking around on a blog that was talking about the series, and it seemed to assume that the reason Kinzo left the epitaph open for anybody to try was because he knew Yasu was alive and on the island.

(The argument was, I think, that Kinzo's sexism is such that had Lion been born female, he would not have let her be a candidate for the headship - as he certainly didn't do that with Beatrice 2. But that with Lion/Yasu being born male, and Kinzo knowing about the not being dead thing, he could make the epitaph open to anyone, believing it would go to Yasu.)

The way Kinzo was reacting, saying that "Beatrice is still trying to resist him" after hearing from Natsuhi that the child fell down, is an indication that the child may not have been male. Maybe he was trying to use a different approach after he saw that the way he tried to raise Beatrice 2 had failed.



And here is the extract from the EP6 script showing that Yasu had contact with guns (unless you suppose it was a lie for some reason):


`Then, the doors to the kitchen and the dining hall came into sight...`\

`All of it brings back fond memories.`\

`......There was the honor and rigidity of serving Kinzo directly.`@
`However, that man wasn't rigid all the time.`@
`......When the family was out of sight and he didn't have to preserve that air of majesty,`@` his face could turn unbelievably childish, and he would sometimes ask me to take part in strange pranks.`\

`.........The Master let me shoot lots of guns, didn't he...`@


This may also be an indication for "Kinzo wasn't such a bad guy all the time" Heck, EP6 has so many clues about things that are only revealed at EP8, it is almost funny.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Excuse me, back up a second. When did Ryukishi say any of these things? It seems like you're just inferring all of this yourself. This isn't something Ryukishi can be claimed to think.

Willard's character was a clear critique of Van Dine, someone who knew and applied the rules but became disillusioned with them. He himself made a self-deprecating acknowledgement that the rules were 'considered' outdated, and didn't care to make any defense against that. The TIPS for SSVD: "Many say that they do not keep up with the times, but they are also highly praised by some for continuing to preserve the basis of the law's spirit to this very day." That's a pretty back-handed endorsement to say that 'some' value these rules without demonstrating any reason what value they have.

Maybe I was unclear in that line, but I only attribute to R07 a critical view of Van Dine -- the specific reasons I detailed are my own, and I didn't intend to put them in R07's mouth.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by Dormin

Returning to the topic of guns, has anyone ever addressed the issue of actual sound of a gunshot?

The scale of the island (like between mansion and guesthouse) hasn't been properly addressed iirc, but the sound of gunshot is really, really loud. At least everyone in the same building should be able to hear a clear bang, and it would probably carry much further.

Aside from that, the thought of anyone actually firing a gun indoors without any protective equipment like earplugs is also kinda wild thought, though not impossible in any way. I guess they could identify the culprit by checking which person has trouble hearing because damaged ears.

Maybe the culprit was actually an ex spec-ops soldier and synchronized timing of the gunshots with the distant thunder.

This is from "Our confession".

Spoiler for Our confession:

Done with her strangling tool, Beato next grabbed her nearby rifle.

And then aiming at Kumasawa's calf, she pulled the trigger.


The gunshot wasn't loud... it's not like the 'bang' sounds from TV or the movies.

At most, it was as loud as uncorking a champagne bottle.

But then a splot of blood flies, and there's blood oozing out of the discomforting hole as it's being fished into.

She's picking out the bullet shot into the calf.

Now Im no gun expert but here's a sound of one rifle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mbaO7qLzS8. And that's what I imagine when I think rifle fire.

[Renall]

People don't get wet when they go out in the rain in this story. I think the narrative accounting for whether anyone should be noticing gunshots is a pretty unlikely occurrence, along with noticing whether someone was shot at close range from their clothes.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Willard's character was a clear critique of Van Dine, someone who knew and applied the rules but became disillusioned with them. He himself made a self-deprecating acknowledgement that the rules were 'considered' outdated, and didn't care to make any defense against that. The TIPS for SSVD: "Many say that they do not keep up with the times, but they are also highly praised by some for continuing to preserve the basis of the law's spirit to this very day." That's a pretty back-handed endorsement to say that 'some' value these rules without demonstrating any reason what value they have.

Maybe I was unclear in that line, but I only attribute to R07 a critical view of Van Dine -- the specific reasons I detailed are my own, and I didn't intend to put them in R07's mouth.

You realize he has Battler imply the same thing about Knox's rules before reverting his opinion on them in EP5 though, so this hardly means anything. EP8 has Will using them fine with no irony or disillusionment. It's more likely it ties in to Ryukishi's weird, pseudo-Death of the Author point.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

People don't get wet when they go out in the rain in this story. I think the narrative accounting for whether anyone should be noticing gunshots is a pretty unlikely occurrence, along with noticing whether someone was shot at close range from their clothes.

I've always hated how Ryukishi disgregard certain things because for readers they're part of what makes a solution believable.
I'll be fine with a certain slack but such total disregard is... well, too much.
Now I'm starting to think Shannon really switched costumes as fast as superman to him because... who cares?

Also in a way the Our confession narrative imply something in how Beato deals with corpses: either she's so coldblooded nothing shock her so digging in a bleeding wound of a corpse is a piece of cake or Yasu's just thinking she'll do it no problem for her narrative. In real life many people are grossed out by things like this to the point they can even feel sick.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Now I'm starting to think Shannon really switched costumes as fast as superman to him because... who cares?

Remember that in ep5 there is literally no time-space boundary between the mansion and guesthouse and people can teleport between them without actually requiring any travel time. When you look at it that way, Shannon instantaneously changing clothes doesn't seem like such a big deal.

The grand irony is that if Ryukishi had accounted for clothes getting wet in the rain, Shkanon would actually matter to the solution as Shannon/Kanon changing to the other character after she was outside when she shouldn't have been would have actually been integral to the solution. Go figure, right?

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You realize he has Battler imply the same thing about Knox's rules before reverting his opinion on them in EP5 though, so this hardly means anything. EP8 has Will using them fine with no irony or disillusionment. It's more likely it ties in to Ryukishi's weird, pseudo-Death of the Author point.

I couldn't help noticing that soon after Battler began applying the commandments as given in Red, he hit upon the Golden Truth. Accepting the Decalogue gave him a foothold for reasoning rather than excuses not to. Meanwhile, Will delivers less than a handful of Van Dine's rules -- the Law of Conservation of Detail was never given in Red, but do you believe there's no reason for that particular selection, no reason the rest were completely dismissed? And in EP8, Will does give a wry admission to Knox's critique of the rules he cites.

I'm not making any unsupported suppositions here. If you have anything of substance regarding a 'Death of the Author' statement, you can demonstrate it to someone who cares, because I can't find that in any way relevant to solving the mysteries.

[GreyZone]

There is still the whole cigarette thing from EP3, that goes against Van Dine's 20th.