Log Horizon Anime General Discussion Thread (NO SPOILERS)

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What, that basically, it happened offscreen somewhere else?

Not exactly, it's more "it hasn't happened YET". A lot of these will be dealt with in the next few episodes, unless the production cuts out some of the juicer details of Shiroe's plans.

And yes, several pages back, it was answered -- many people just gave up and didn't bother anymore, literally stopped caring. Not being able to die, coupled with tasteless food, made morale plummet. Shiroe is actually the exception here, and even then prior to heading to Suzukino, even he was wondering about what was the point of it all.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What you don't seem to understand, is that it never was about easy answers. Not about finding a kindly NPCs to tell them "do X and you'll go home". It's about understanding their situation so they can make informed decisions. Even if there's no way out, understanding the world they're in will aid them in bettering their circumstances. (For example, how to make good food should have been figured out in two days, tops, and then the info disseminated to everyone.)

And people are researching and trying to understand the situation they're in. We, the viewers, just don't see this research in explicit detail. We see things like Nyanta having figured out how to cook and explaining it to us. But the research that led him to learn this has taken place.

So I'm still not quite sure what the issue is here...

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Demiglace, for all his faults, had the leadership and charisma to bring order and unity to his town. Too bad he used it to become a two-bit tyrant. But it's not out of question that out there, there are people with just as much leadership, and a better moral compass and long-term view.

Actually, it was his two-bit tyrantness that allowed him in bringing order to this town so swiftly. "My way or a quick trip to the cathedral" means that there was little motivation for people to voice their disagreements. Any leader that wants to bring order and unity without ruling through fear though, has to face people disagreeing with you. If someone steps up to a leader and says "Why should I listen to you? Who made you the leader?" Demikas would just kill the guy until he stopped voicing his complaint. A more passive leader would have to find solid arguments and motivation to convince the guy that they are the best option.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Actually, it was his two-bit tyrantness that allowed him in bringing order to this town so swiftly. "My way or a quick trip to the cathedral" means that there was little motivation for people to voice their disagreements. Any leader that wants to bring order and unity without ruling through fear though, has to face people disagreeing with you. If someone steps up to a leader and says "Why should I listen to you? Who made you the leader?" Demikas would just kill the guy until he stopped voicing his complaint. A more passive leader would have to find solid arguments and motivation to convince the guy that they are the best option.

I wouldn't be above doing some occasional killing, considering how they resurrect anyway ... a sort of "ritual duel" thing maybe, just to clarify who's the strongest around. The problem is not just that he was violent, it's that he was also rather dumb and used his power only for his own enjoyment.

[aohige]

Those are pretty trivial compared to the enslavement of Landers.
I fear the worst for those two little girls.

[Myssa Rei]

Yeah, the anime did gloss on that didn't it? Book 1 was explicit about how Brigandia sold children Landers to be slaves of the players in Suzukino.

[whitecloud]

sex slaves for pedo?

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by aohige

Those are pretty trivial compared to the enslavement of Landers.
I fear the worst for those two little girls.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Yeah, the anime did gloss on that didn't it? Book 1 was explicit about how Brigandia sold children Landers to be slaves of the players in Suzukino.

Ehwww. Not nice.

[Neki Ecko]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Yeah, the anime did gloss on that didn't it? Book 1 was explicit about how Brigandia sold children Landers to be slaves of the players in Suzukino.

But you have to remember that it is on NHK Education, so they will leave some scenes and details out. I think even the Author was saying that on his 4chan interview.

Speaking of that interview, I believe that would probably be the norm now for other authors since that interview, alot of good things happen for him like being shipped to stateside, getting a dub and etc, etc, etc.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Yeah, the anime did gloss on that didn't it? Book 1 was explicit about how Brigandia sold children Landers to be slaves of the players in Suzukino.

Actually it's more towards "young women" (若い娘) rather than just "children" if I'm not wrong.

But still....

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Keroko

And people are researching and trying to understand the situation they're in. We, the viewers, just don't see this research in explicit detail. We see things like Nyanta having figured out how to cook and explaining it to us. But the research that led him to learn this has taken place.

So I'm still not quite sure what the issue is here...

Let's take that, right there. Nyanta somehow figured it out. Why didn't he immediately tell every single person on his contact list? Why didn't he save everyone from horrible-food hell? To be able sell good food at outrageous prices? That seems out of character.

From what we've seen, their research is... inefficient. Done in isolation, in-between other occupations. Instead of being the "day job" of whole teams of people sharing their results.

Actually, it was his two-bit tyrantness that allowed him in bringing order to this town so swiftly. "My way or a quick trip to the cathedral" means that there was little motivation for people to voice their disagreements. Any leader that wants to bring order and unity without ruling through fear though, has to face people disagreeing with you. If someone steps up to a leader and says "Why should I listen to you? Who made you the leader?" Demikas would just kill the guy until he stopped voicing his complaint. A more passive leader would have to find solid arguments and motivation to convince the guy that they are the best option.

It's more complex than that. He couldn't have done it alone. He convinced his whole guild to be dicks with him. He convinced the other people that he could do horrible things to them and that there was nothing they could do about. (Despite the anti-PvP system in the town. Considering his temper, I don't think it'd be difficult to go for double-KOs where the guards would send both him and a provocateur to the Cathedral.) It's not just about the combat strength of his character. It's about hearts and minds.

Also, while a more decent human being would have more trouble extracting absolute obedience from people... he wouldn't need to.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Let's take that, right there. Nyanta somehow figured it out. Why didn't he immediately tell every single person on his contact list? Why didn't he save everyone from horrible-food hell? To be able sell good food at outrageous prices? That seems out of character.

From what we've seen, their research is... inefficient. Done in isolation, in-between other occupations. Instead of being the "day job" of whole teams of people sharing their results.

Aaaaand we're back to the main complaint being that people aren't acting exactly the way you want them to/expecting them to react to the apocalypse in a frankly unrealistic organized way. People thrown into an apocalyptic game aren't all magically going to band together to figure out the secrets behind it. Because, you know, people are different and will react to situations differently. The day job of whole teams? That would require a little something called "organization and structure" something which, you might have noticed, is a bit lacking at the moment.

It might come later, as the guilds are banding together in Akiba, but expecting that level of organization so shortly after a world-changing apocalypse? Any teams that might have formed would have been the exception, not the rule.

As for being out of character... how so? From what we've seen so far of him, Nyanta himself is not exactly someone who goes and talks to everyone on his contact list. He's perfectly fine to converse with people he meets, but he's not going out of his way to contact people himself.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's more complex than that. He couldn't have done it alone. He convinced his whole guild to be dicks with him. He convinced the other people that he could do horrible things to them and that there was nothing they could do about. (Despite the anti-PvP system in the town. Considering his temper, I don't think it'd be difficult to go for double-KOs where the guards would send both him and a provocateur to the Cathedral.) It's not just about the combat strength of his character. It's about hearts and minds.

Also, while a more decent human being would have more trouble extracting absolute obedience from people... he wouldn't need to.

It's a bit more complex, true, but the point is that it only really worked as swiftly as it did because he ruled through fear. If you don't rule through fear, you have to convince other humans that your word is the best. And you would have to back up those words. Repeatedly.

In other words: You have to try to please everyone. That is not easy. It is a long, long, arduous process.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Demiglace, for all his faults, had the leadership and charisma to bring order and unity to his town. Too bad he used it to become a two-bit tyrant. But it's not out of question that out there, there are people with just as much leadership, and a better moral compass and long-term view.


So share the load. Plenty of players, plenty of different tasks.


Yeah. Immortal.


They're also overpowered enough to avoid making that such a big problem. Especially if they're smart and share information.

"Demiglace, for all his faults, had the leadership and charisma to bring order and unity to his town. Too bad he used it to become a two-bit tyrant. But it's not out of question that out there, there are people with just as much leadership, and a better moral compass and long-term view."

It was mention, or implied, that Susukino isnt very popular, and Brigandia is the only major guild there.And it was also mentioned that Brigandia was already a bad guild even before the "Apocalypse".

"Yeah. Immortal."
No, they arent. There are differences between immortal and unable to die permanently

"They're also overpowered enough to avoid making that such a big problem. Especially if they're smart and share information."
Their powers are related to their level, and they are overpowered only if they face lower leveled enemies . and information need to be processed and coordinated before spreading them. There can be many false rumours, and people can do stupid things by believing those rumours.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Let's take that, right there. Nyanta somehow figured it out. Why didn't he immediately tell every single person on his contact list? Why didn't he save everyone from horrible-food hell? To be able sell good food at outrageous prices? That seems out of character.

From what we've seen, their research is... inefficient. Done in isolation, in-between other occupations. Instead of being the "day job" of whole teams of people sharing their results.



It's more complex than that. He couldn't have done it alone. He convinced his whole guild to be dicks with him. He convinced the other people that he could do horrible things to them and that there was nothing they could do about. (Despite the anti-PvP system in the town. Considering his temper, I don't think it'd be difficult to go for double-KOs where the guards would send both him and a provocateur to the Cathedral.) It's not just about the combat strength of his character. It's about hearts and minds.

Also, while a more decent human being would have more trouble extracting absolute obedience from people... he wouldn't need to.

"Let's take that, right there. Nyanta somehow figured it out. Why didn't he immediately tell every single person on his contact list? Why didn't he save everyone from horrible-food hell? To be able sell good food at outrageous prices? That seems out of character."
Well, he might thought that other people would know that already. He had almost no way of knowing, since he was basically isolated from the rest of the world. And its not really out of character. I mean, we dont even see that much character of him, other than he acts gentlemanly, end his speech with Nyaa, and trust Shiroe and other members of DTP completely

"From what we've seen, their research is... inefficient. Done in isolation, in-between other occupations. Instead of being the "day job" of whole teams of people sharing their results."
What else have you seen really?

"It's more complex than that. He couldn't have done it alone. He convinced his whole guild to be dicks with him. He convinced the other people that he could do horrible things to them and that there was nothing they could do about. (Despite the anti-PvP system in the town. Considering his temper, I don't think it'd be difficult to go for double-KOs where the guards would send both him and a provocateur to the Cathedral.) It's not just about the combat strength of his character. It's about hearts and minds."
He is the one of the few lvl 90 in Susukino, and his guild(The only major guild in Susukino) was already known to be a dickish guild even before the "Apocalypse"
It is said that you can hurt someone without triggering anti-PvP system in town, like slapping for example. It is not hard to see man like Demikas do that, or twisting the victims' arms easily. and from Ep.3 Shiroe inferred that high lvl player get stronger and thougher body in general, so it can be inferred that lvl 90 players can win an arm wrestling with lvl 40-50 players all the time.
And about the double KO, Demikas is probably a person who just laugh it off if someone with low lvl attack him, you know, like "its that the best you can do?" or something like that. I dont think any low lvl player can defeat him before they get killed by the guard, and Demikas doesnt have to lift a finger. and even if theydid do a double-ko, would anything change? they just got revived again, and Demikas would be more angry, they both died again, and again.

and about the state in Akiba, from earlier episodes, it is said that bigger guilds get bigger and smaller guilds get absorbed slowly. Those guilds were trying to increase their influence, but try to avoid taking responsibility. It is hard to order people to do something without convincing them first. Most of the major guilds were probably using the "Wait and see" tactics

I tried not to talk meta, only discussing only the given content in anime. Sure I read some spoilers from what happened later in the novel. That is why I said "at the moment", "their current situation" and so on. I tried to discuss solely from anime content. I wont say "they will do "this" or "that" later, so youre wrong". So I'm sorry if its sound rude to you, or anyone

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Aaaaand we're back to the main complaint being that people aren't acting exactly the way you want them to/expecting them to react to the apocalypse in a frankly unrealistic organized way. People thrown into an apocalyptic game aren't all magically going to band together to figure out the secrets behind it. Because, you know, people are different and will react to situations differently. The day job of whole teams? That would require a little something called "organization and structure" something which, you might have noticed, is a bit lacking at the moment.

It might come later, as the guilds are banding together in Akiba, but expecting that level of organization so shortly after a world-changing apocalypse? Any teams that might have formed would have been the exception, not the rule.

Aaaaand we're back to you making what I say a "complaint" instead of a simple statement of how they (the players, not the writer) could have done things better. If you can't catch the nuance, how about we both stop talking about it?

As for being out of character... how so? From what we've seen so far of him, Nyanta himself is not exactly someone who goes and talks to everyone on his contact list. He's perfectly fine to converse with people he meets, but he's not going out of his way to contact people himself.

Because it's an incredibly dickish move is why. He let everyone eat mush, with the effect it has on morale, when all he had to do was spread the "secret" of making edible food.

Now, maybe when he isn't saving lolis, he's an incredible dick. But I don't want to believe that.

It's a bit more complex, true, but the point is that it only really worked as swiftly as it did because he ruled through fear. If you don't rule through fear, you have to convince other humans that your word is the best. And you would have to back up those words. Repeatedly.

In other words: You have to try to please everyone. That is not easy. It is a long, long, arduous process.

You only have to please everyone if you want to be obeyed by everyone. "Obeyed by some, left alone by the rest" would be enough for most endeavors.

It doesn't have to be "everyone gather under one rule now!". Small, independent groups could make some progress and share later. That would result in duplication of effort, but it's not a big problem. Not as big as just letting people mope, anyway.

[Quol]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Because it's an incredibly dickish move is why. He let everyone eat mush, with the effect it has on morale, when all he had to do was spread the "secret" of making edible food.

Now, maybe when he isn't saving lolis, he's an incredible dick. But I don't want to believe that..

He probably has an everybody-for-themselves attitude, he would help those that are in a dire situation or those that ask for help, but he wont be a superman and look for trouble. (might just be me, but i think keeping a 15 year old from being raped is more important than food)

If one of those players asked him "hey can you teach me how to make delicious food" he would probably respond with a "yes" but he wouldnt go and tell people "want to learn how to make food?"

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Quol

He probably has an everybody-for-themselves attitude, he would help those that are in a dire situation or those that ask for help, but he wont be a superman and look for trouble. (might just be me, but i think keeping a 15 year old from being raped is more important than food)

If one of those players asked him "hey can you teach me how to make delicious food" he would probably respond with a "yes" but he wouldnt go and tell people "want to learn how to make food?"

All he had to do - during some downtime period when he wasn't fighting off thugs, and we know he had them - was call his friends and tell them. I'm not saying he should have stood in the street and yelled.

[Quol]

He doesnt seem to have the morals that shiroe has as long as he can take a nap he will be happy. He doesnt seem to care as much about the general community as much as others, when he returned to serara and she asked how it was outside he responded with a "It was the same as always." rather than a "It was as horrible as always."

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

All he had to do - during some downtime period when he wasn't fighting off thugs, and we know he had them - was call his friends and tell them. I'm not saying he should have stood in the street and yelled.

Well, I dont know if you ignore my post or not, but, whatever.
It is very much possible that he has a lot more to think on his mind, i meant, everyone does. He just probably doesnt want to worry Serara and others too much, and as he said, be gentlemanly. It is quite possible that the thought of sharing the secret didnt cross his mind, or that he might think that the "secret" aren't secret, ie, people have discovered it.
You know, he didnt run away, or ask for his friends' help when he got stuck with Serara in Susukino. it is believable that he didnt want to bother them. And he also believe in Serara that a reinforcement will come to rescue them

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Aaaaand we're back to you making what I say a "complaint" instead of a simple statement of how they (the players, not the writer) could have done things better. If you can't catch the nuance, how about we both stop talking about it?

Critique then. Doesn't change the rest of the post. The level of organization you're talking about is quite simply impossible with the world in its current state. In order to have an efficient research structure with multiple teams of various people doing research you need an organized central group, which quite simply doesn't exist yet.

Such an organized group might appear when things calm down in Akiba and there actually exists an organization level high enough to do this, but right now? You might, at most, have a couple of loose groups trying to figure things out.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Because it's an incredibly dickish move is why. He let everyone eat mush, with the effect it has on morale, when all he had to do was spread the "secret" of making edible food.

Now, maybe when he isn't saving lolis, he's an incredible dick. But I don't want to believe that.

You know as well as I do that the only actual explanation for this is a meta one. Just as it will be for every other discovery being made by people in the background being brought forward when they are relevant for us viewers.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You only have to please everyone if you want to be obeyed by everyone. "Obeyed by some, left alone by the rest" would be enough for most endeavors.

It doesn't have to be "everyone gather under one rule now!". Small, independent groups could make some progress and share later. That would result in duplication of effort, but it's not a big problem. Not as big as just letting people mope, anyway.

Indeed. But it wouldn't make everyone follow a single set of rules like with Demikas. And it would still take longer to get a measure of order compared to simply going "My way or the cathedral." It's the difference between swift, but short-term order versus slow, but long-term order.

And this isn't even theoretical. We are shown this in the series. While Demikas had order in Susukino through his rule of fear, in Akiba they're still in the negotiation and discussion phase, trying to get order from the chaos.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Quol

He doesnt seem to have the morals that shiroe has as long as he can take a nap he will be happy. He doesnt seem to care as much about the general community as much as others, when he returned to serara and she asked how it was outside he responded with a "It was the same as always." rather than a "It was as horrible as always."

Nah, I dont think thats it. He was saying that the situation outside is "the same as always" probably was to reduce Serara's worries. From his speech before he fought Demikas, it is clear he wanted to do something, but unable to. Its not that he doesnt have the moral, he just cant act on it

[Quol]

Then maybe he doesnt believe that giving taste to people would be that much of a big change. When i thought about not being able to taste food it didnt really seem like that much of a problem, perhaps he has the same thought.