Why don't fansubbers want to restrain themselves with DRM?

[Kurz]

Originally Posted by LytHka

I have to congratulate TheFluff here for figuring out that all of these are just hypotheses. As bayoab said, it's just fun thinking how these things would look like. Obviously, TheFluff missed out on that completely.

Hmm... Actually he isnt trying to stab at you (He could however it can be taken that way if you are looking for it, keep your display of public affection to PM LytHka).

I believe He is viewing from a leecher stand point.

I thought of something interesting is it possible to create a file to self destruct after a year or two? Since by then if the series is popular enough it'll already be licensed and in the states. So it'll force people to actually get the dvds if they want to watch it again. Though I dont think Directshow can be the medium for this to work.

[primalmx]

An interesting idea, but shoudl the server go down due to an attack, hardware failure, or a power line being tripped we dead in the water :P Now lest say, ideally, somehow we manage to solve all these issues, and the serve is running nicely

Groups will then arrise who will refuse to do this, releasing non-drm subs to spite the drm-supporting groups. People will flock to those subs, I mean, what would you rather a drmed copy or perhaps a slighlty lower quality non drm one... I vote for non drm


~prime

[Zero1]

This is what I've been missing. So you guys want to encrypt the subs somehow, but not the video and audio. This means that when you are ordered to quit subbing it by some licensor, you just kill the sub stream.

It's not the distribution of translation/subtitles that the companies care so much about (at least I think not), it's the fact that you are spreading their copyright audio and video.

I don't see how that is any more effective than just pulling the torrent, since in the end the video and audio is still distributable, sans subtitles. If you was working from DVDs, then hey; you've been distroing clean DVD rips, that will get the licensors nice and angry. I can see this being semi effective in as much that to most people, raw anime is next to useless, but it seems like a half baked solution to me.

Yes, I quite agree about AMVs, it's a shame more people just don't use DVDs.

As for keys and whatnot, I know they suck, but I was basing it on a current, viable, existing method, rather than some Super DRM that has yet to be put into a single working model.

[Ronbo]

Fan-Sub groups claiming that they own or control their translations? That’s a first for me! I actually got a chuckle over that one.

Although copyright law is there to protect an authors work, any derivative work created without authorization is not entitled to such protection! This includes translations.
Licensees themselves have to be very careful in just how their contracts are worded as anything that is not specifically listed as controlled by them automatically becomes the property of the licensor.

In the case of unauthorized derivative works created by fan-sub groups, if one is to take that train of thought to the next level then anything created by them automatically becomes the property of the copyright holder in question.

So with that thought in mind any fan-sub group that applies DRM to their releases would in fact be applying that technology to the property of others and I can just see where that would lead to.

[ender]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Read again how what I wrote works. There is never an actual stream of text. It is OCR and you can make it harder in many ways (add noise pre-rendering).

This would never work - before OCRing, you always convert the image to have only 2 colors, and if you add so much noise that image converted this way would still have too much noise, human eyes would likely also not be capable of reading the text fast enough to follow both the subtitle and the picture at the same time.

[Jekyll]

Originally Posted by bayoab

I am very sure you are aware that Elliptic Encryption has a complexity such that you will not be decrypting it anytime before 2020.

2020 would be pretty sad for elliptic curve crypto, when a simple 4096bit RSA key ensures data safety for nigh eternity.
Actually, those pesky quantum computers might trouble RSA, but fansub watchers won't have those in the near future, I guess.
What I want to say is: Using elliptic curve crypto wouldn't make much sense. In comparison to RSA or ElGamal you just get smaller key sizes for the same security, which is not really all that useful. Also, elliptic curves cryptography is not as well studied as conventional public key systems.

Originally Posted by bayoab

Read again how what I wrote works. There is never an actual stream of text. It is OCR and you can make it harder in many ways (add noise pre-rendering).
[...]
First of all, this isnt DRM. Second of all, we are talking about subtitles streams. Unless we are streaming it directly into your brain through wireless waves like the PS9, of course its crackable. You just copy down the damn subtitles. The point of DRM is to make it HELL to automate it. "But if a computer can do it, I can just reverse it" is completely incorrect. Theory of computation should have taught you that just because a computer can do it doesn't mean a human can figure out a way to undo it.

So, you propose a program that hooks into the video player window (cross platform compatibility will be hell), uses SSL2 (secure against sniffing, as long as you do it right) to connect a webserver, streams bitmaps of subtitles (OCR argument/"The subs wouldn't be encrypted, they just aren't going to be human language."), adds noise to the bitmaps (anti-OCR) and blits them on top of the video in the player window?
What is going the stop somebody from using a debugger, analysing the program and writing a program that snatches the bitmaps right out of the RAM, before the noise-adding stage? They could even snatch the client certificate, and write their own client that connects to the subtitle server.
If I got you wrong on the bitmap-part, and you propose some kind of human-unreadable (encrypted?) format that will have to be rendered before blitting the subs to the video player window, one could even make the program that snatches the data out of memory output ASS or something.
Doesn't sound too secure to me.

(Please note, that this whole "snatching data out of the RAM" business has been done and is indeed possible. Example: As far as I remember, there is a programm (actually two, but they are used for different stages of the process) that retrieves DRM keys from a running instance of WMP9.)

[Starks]

Originally Posted by primalmx

An interesting idea, but shoudl the server go down due to an attack, hardware failure, or a power line being tripped we dead in the water :P Now lest say, ideally, somehow we manage to solve all these issues, and the serve is running nicely

Groups will then arrise who will refuse to do this, releasing non-drm subs to spite the drm-supporting groups. People will flock to those subs, I mean, what would you rather a drmed copy or perhaps a slighlty lower quality non drm one... I vote for non drm


~prime

Then we simply return to the concept Whitehat subbers and Blackhat subbers.

[ArchMageZeratuL]

Whatever methods are being described here, there is one very important point to keep in mind: DRM, or any variation of it is based on "security through obscurity". Since anyone can get access to the cryptographic decoding key (at least, for as long as the fansub is "valid"), then anyone can de-protect the file if they know the exact algorithm.

Meaning that any DRM scheme is only valid for as long as the encryption/decryption scheme remains hidden. You would have to make it closed-source software, and you better make it hard to reverse engineer. As soon as anyone discovers the algorithm, he can freely obtain the keys from the server (regardless of whatever protection methods) and easily decode the videos. Just look at the WMV cracking programs. It doesn't matter how long or secure the keys are. They could be 2048 bits for all that anyone cares. You have the key, and you have the decoding algorithm. That's all it takes.

Applying the protection to the subtitles is not any different from encrypting the video itself - in order to protect against DirectShow transcoding, the decryption will have to be done on the player level, at any rate. Quark's suggestion has a few interesting ideas, but I don't see it working in practice - if the player isn't using Overlay, how will it even detect the player window? And can another process even draw over the player's overlay?

Perhaps we have come to a point where people are too desperate to be ethical. DRM is not the solution for that. In my humble opinion, creating a free fansub, and reserving yourself the rights to revoke people's access to watch it is not incredibly ethical. If you think that it shouldn't be watched after it's licensed, say so in the fansub. If people disrespect it, it's THEIR problem, NOT yours. You've done your part.

The distributors won't be happier just because you're copy-protecting their media.

[Sylf]

If I have DRMed fansubs burnt on a DVD Rom (not DVD Video format), take it on the road along with my laptop... I won't be able to watch that on the road, in the airplane, whatever. No access to DRM server.

DRM server goes down. All files are dead. (Yes, I'm starting to repeat what's been said MANY times already.)

Local side copy protection? That's same as DVD's copy protection. Besides, talk about amount of software license fees these studios pay to the company who develops the copy protection software. Who in the fansub scene willing to pay that? If not, who's going to write the better copy protection software that's better than the commercial products?

When we start relying on some in-house software solution, 1) as if that's going to stop any crackers. 2) how do we keep the cross platform compatibility?

And on the note of softsubs : I have my reasons for favoring hardsubs. I really don't want to switch to softsubs. So that's another negative point about using subtitle DRM.

Originally Posted by AMZ

Perhaps we have come to a point where people are too desperate to be ethical.

That's what I'm starting to get the feel of.

[Coderjoe]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Derivative works are covered under fair use. Translations are not considered derivative works and are therefore illegal. (US copyright law.)

Originally Posted by US Code Title 17 (Copyright) Section 101 - Definitions

A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications, which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.

I see "Translation" listed under derivative work.

Originally Posted by US Code Title 17 (Copyright) Section 106 - Exclusive rights in copyrighted works

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;

(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and

(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

Looks like only the owner of a copyrighted work has the right to prepare derivative works from it.

Now, on to fair use...

Originally Posted by US Code Title 17 (Copyright) Section 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

(section 106A covers "Rights of certain authors to attribution and integrity")

So... do fansubs really fall into any of these: "for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research"?

[Coderjoe]

Anyway, back to the issue at hand, being DRM...

DRM will never work. All ANY copy protection does is cause problems for legitimate users and a small number of people attempting to share with friends. Large-scale bootlegging and warez people will not be inhibited.

Also, one thing that the media cartels (RIAA, MPAA, etc) seem to forget is that IF YOU CAN PLAY IT, IT CAN BE RIPPED. The only way to make a file unrippable would be to make it completely unplayable. This is not an option, as it completely defeats the purpose of distributing the media in the first place.

If the cartels could have their way, they would want a leakproof pipe from their studios to your eyeball or your eardrum. And they would want a pay model like pay-per-play.

[Sylf]

@ Coderjoe
The phrase "pay per play" for some odd reason made me remember an old thread from last year - subs for sale or whatever. They were going to get license from the actual Japanese anime distributors, and use fansubbers as resource of creating translations/subtitles. These so-called professionals are having hard time making sure that things are going to work out just right. (I know it was totally off the wall, but I couldn't help it.)

[LytHka]

Don't be surprised if they pop out from nowhere right now. <_< AFAIK, "they" are just one mentally unstable asian guy who likes blogging.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Jekyll

2020 would be pretty sad for elliptic curve crypto, when a simple 4096bit RSA key ensures data safety for nigh eternity.
Actually, those pesky quantum computers might trouble RSA, but fansub watchers won't have those in the near future, I guess.

I have a quantum computer 2 stories down from my office at the University of California at Santa Barbara. Albeit, it's only a 4 qbit quantum computer, so could factor numbers up to... um... 16, but they're getting better!

[Starks]

Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL

Perhaps we have come to a point where people are too desperate to be ethical. DRM is not the solution for that. In my humble opinion, creating a free fansub, and reserving yourself the rights to revoke people's access to watch it is not incredibly ethical. If you think that it shouldn't be watched after it's licensed, say so in the fansub. If people disrespect it, it's THEIR problem, NOT yours. You've done your part.

The distributors won't be happier just because you're copy-protecting their media.

I whole-heartedly agree...

Originally Posted by LytHka

Don't be surprised if they pop out from nowhere right now. <_< AFAIK, "they" are just one mentally unstable asian guy who likes blogging.

I don't catch your drift...

[Kurz]

I was thinking how would we maintain control once a video file is on a Leechers PC. Here is a rough idea how it'll work.

I propose a Java application that does it all. It is a Bittorrent client and a Media Player all at the same time.

First off There will be a central tracker that people can visit to download special torrents that can be only opened within the Java App's Bittorrent function. Then the file you wanted to download is stored to a Cache with all the other pieces of media and it appears as one file. Then when you want to play a file you must open up the Java app and it'll decrypt the cache to display the files you have within.

The Files themselves before they play check to see a file within the cache if Green (ok )to play.

This Green light file is maintained by a server which at maxium needs to connect every 30 days to maintain validity. Once connected it updates the play list and automatically deletes files that the fansubbers themselves deemed for deletion.

The file begins to play and you can see your Anime in good stride.

And as soon as you close the player the cache is encrypted yet again by a random algorthems and the exact algorthems are held within the bitApp itself. To ensure against tempering. Also this keep someone from doing a low tech solution of copying the cache and storing someplace else as back up. Then when they come to play it back in the player the player would only remember the algorthems for the other cache and not for the backuped one.


Only problem might be the media player... I havent seen a Java app that is cappable to play back media.
Now should the codecs be internal or external? I vote for internal to keep the files inside, and it allows for the ability to make to idiot proof when it comes to codecs.

[Jekyll]

One problem with that would be that Java seems to be quite easily decompiled. Just google for "java decompiler" and you get a couple of hits. With that, somebody could just remove the "green light" check and recompile. With another language it wouldn't be quite so easy, but still possible. This is just security through obscurity.

[Fatalis]

The hilarity.

[Kurz]

It doesnt have to be Java, I choosed it for demostration.

Another thing about those decompilers. Sometimes they suck at Decompiling Apps.
I tried decompling my teachers example of a Java program, It didnt work. The code itself look like garbage when I went to compile it, it didnt work at all.

Maybe it was the program I was using...

Oh well

Originally Posted by Fatalis

The hilarity

Its just a fun topic to see how can we DRM Fansubs. Its probably never going to happen.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by LytHka

EDIT: Though, this is a really fun thread. It might be really amusing for TheFluff and others to point and laugh at these hypotheses, but I assure you, it's more fun watching the mighty pirate kick, bite and scream as if doomsday was already upon them.

Actually, you are correct. It was stupid of me to take the entire suggestion seriously in the first place... I should've learned by now that flaming delusional people doesn't make them less delusional. >_>

On the other hand, it IS fun seeing the ethical talibans being so excited over an idea that'll never work. On the third hand, armchair cryptographers are pretty lame...