Why don't fansubbers want to restrain themselves with DRM?

[Starks]

I noticed that I started a nice debate about DRM and whether the fansub community wants to even touch the technology.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...t=31337&page=3
Read that thread for the full story.

Originally Posted by Zero1

MP4 can have DRM...

If you are truely evil you could encrypt certain tracks and put the key on some website. When the show is licensed, remove the key from the website... The thing with that is you would need a live internet connection to be able to watch it I think.

Thankfully, everyone knows that DRM is retarded and inconvienient, so this feature of MP4 isn't going to go anywhere, and I doubt that companies will use it either. They will stick to things such as WMV or whatever.

If people start releasing encrypted fansubs in MP4, I will personally crack, transmux and distro an MKV version of it >

I appreciate "the old fashioned ways of fansubbing", but I don't appreciate invasive DRM shit.

Originally Posted by bayoab

I just had the sudden thought... WITH softsubs... it might be possible to add DRM. Requiring that the file stream the softsubs from another website. (Yes, you can capture the data stream packet by packet).

The con side of the debate: DRM will make fansubbers no better than the companies who use it. There is also the question of whether DRM even works.

The pro side of the debate: The technology is available to us, why not try? Isn't controlling piracy a venture worth investigating?

[gumbaloom]

It would need thought but if someone impartial like the scarywater admin could set up a DRM licensing server where groups could disable the license for an anime video once an official license had been announced then that would be a good thing. It would certainly kill distribution once the license had been announced.

The question is, who would have the time, money and resources to set up a venture and make it accessible to fansubbers and in an easy to adopt format for encoders?

-gumbaloom

[Sylf]

I've never liked the idea of DRM.

When you put DRM in place, you're restricting the viewers from which software they can use. That type of restriction is a big no-no in my view.

Also, what happens when that central DRM server goes down before the show is licensed? The fans are stuck with files they can't play? They'll be forced to crack the DRM? And if they can crack it, what is going to stop them from cracking the licensed shows?

And it's exactly what Zero1 said - there will be plenty of people who'll be willing to crack it, remux it, and redistribute it.

I'm in the "Say no to DRM" camp.

[Starks]

Originally Posted by gumbaloom

The question is, who would have the time, money and resources to set up a venture and make it accessible to fansubbers and in an easy to adopt format for encoders?

-gumbaloom

We wouldn't know until we tried...

[Access]

It would be too easy to bypass, using avisynth alone or if that didn't work, one of the more sophisticated hacked-driver screencap tools. Anyone with the proper tools could, when the file is playable, re-encode, save, and then distro it over BT or other method even once the DRM tries to become active. Adding DRM only makes it more likely someone will want to hack it (for the reputiation of doing so).

[Eeknay]

It's laughable to put restrictions on content that we've already pirated to begin with. Plus not many people have love for DRM anyway.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Eeknay

It's laughable to put restrictions on content that we've already pirated to begin with.

Quoted for truth.

Why no DRM?
1. It doesn't work (if it can be shown, it can be copied, and there's plenty of people willing to do that copying)
2. Noone wants it except the egosubbers who can't stand the idea of someone else using their scripts, and the talibans in the Fansubbing Ethics camp who think that studios are dying because they can't stop people from distroing their shows after they've been licensed in the US
3. The content is already pirated to begin with, making it the height of hypocrisy to copy-protect it (but hey, so far hypocrisy hasn't stopped anyone around these parts)
4. To paraphrase Cory Doctorow: "Keeping an 'ethical' leecher 'ethical' is like keeping a tall leecher tall". DRM won't stop the people who are already downloading licensed shows, DVD-rips etc. etc. It's also frighteningly obvious that a HUGE majority of the leechers don't give a shit about licensed/not licensed - they don't see any difference between Hollywood movies and fansubs - and neither should they
5. It would be a pain in the ass to maintain
6. It's fucking retarded.

[relentlessflame]

In fact, I'd predict that the nearly inevitable outcome would be that groups would pop up whose sole aim was stealing fansub scripts and breaking fansub DRM. Even if everyone could agree about licensing (considering how contentious it is on these boards alone), a lot of people are opposed to DRM either on principle, or because they're using setups (set-top devices, non-Windows operating systems, etc.) where DRM isn't an option. I also have to admit that the irony of putting "fair use" restrictions on pirated goods is somewhat rich... shouldn't the companies be putting the restrictions on us? It'd be one thing if fansubbing were permitted or encouraged, but in a world where it's at best tolerated, and more often scorned, I don't really see the sense in such a move. Personally, it's not even that the restrictions would bother me, it's the type of hostile environment such a move would result in. I think it'd just create animosity, and there's already plenty of that to go around, it seems.

[Starks]

I don't see any other meaningful way for an ethical fansub to control their releases. A DRM -esque option would be potential solution (albeit temporary). I do have my doubts as to how permanent the solution can be.

If a fansub group wishes to hold itself to a moral code of ethics, can that group ever be "moral enough"? No, but they can certainly try!

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Starks

I don't see any other meaningful way for an ethical fansub to control their releases.

How about not releasing stuff to the public? Releasing DRM'ed stuff is more or less the same as what they're doing now, i.e. release warez, stop distributing and make some half-assed attempts to get others to stop too when the stuff in question gets licensed in the US, and then stand aside yelling and pointing accusatory fingers at THE EVIL PIRATES WHO ARE STEALING THEIR BEER!

Really. Releasing free video of any kind and then stopping to distribute it, for whatever reason, and then expect it to magically disappear afterwards, is like expecting a Ferrari parked of in the bad part of town with open doors, the keys in the lock and a post-it note saying "please don't steal this" on the windshield to still be there if left unattended for a week... DRM'ing it is more or less the same, except you close the doors first.

[ArchMageZeratuL]

If you're going to allow people to watch fansubs only for as long as it's not licensed, then why bother even making them in the first place? Let's face it, the vast majority of shows worth subbing eventually get licensed in the USA - even shows like Koi Kaze, Genshiken, and KGNE, which many had no hopes of seeing in a R1 release. When you're subbing a show that draws major attention (e.g. Bleach), do you SERIOUSLY expect it not to be licensed? So why only stop distribution after the license is announced? It's not any less legal after it's licensed - it's illegal before and after.

If you really want to stay legal, release subtitles and let people find the raws themselves. There is (ARGUABLY - there are strong arguments on the two sides, and I haven't heard what a lawyer has to say on the matter) nothing illegal with just releasing the subtitles that you've made - what is illegal is releasing the video and audio that belong to a japanese studio (which will eventually allow some american company to distribute).

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

While fan translations are indisputably illegal (Article 8 of the Berne Convention explicitly reserves the right of translation to the copyright holder and whoever receives permission of them, saying "Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works."), it is unusual for copyright holders to object.

[...]

A popular belief in the fan translation community is that distributing only the translation, as a patch to the original game, is legal. The reasoning is that the patch only contains the new data and directives for where it is to be placed, and does not have the original copyrighted material included in any form, and therefore it is useless unless the user applies it to a (copyrighted) ROM, the acquisition and legality of which they are left completely accountable for. This belief, while untested in court, is probably not supported by international copyright law, but this strong anti-software piracy attitude by the fan translation community may have convinced copyright holders to, by and large, turn a blind eye.

[deathbygirl]

Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL

If you really want to stay legal, release subtitles and let people find the raws themselves. There is (ARGUABLY - there are strong arguments on the two sides, and I haven't heard what a lawyer has to say on the matter) nothing illegal with just releasing the subtitles that you've made - what is illegal is releasing the video and audio that belong to a japanese studio (which will eventually allow some american company to distribute).

I'm not completely sure on the matter, but IIRC there's some kind of caveat stating a "non-personal" translation/transcription of a show is illegal as well. Someone who has a better grasp on the topic can clarify on this, though.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Starks

If a fansub group wishes to hold itself to a moral code of ethics, can that group ever be "moral enough"? No, but they can certainly try!

Well, not to contribute to what seems to be an escalating flame war, but the problem I have with it is that is this: by imposing DRM, you're imposing/legislating morality/ethics, but of course, you would have the original files. What's stopping you from violating the very same ethical/moral rules you felt the need to impose on others? In this way, the leechers and the fansubbers are in the exact same boat. I'm sure you know, as well as I do, the amount of fansubbers in "ethical" groups who don't personally practice what they preach, if not in anime, but other areas (like, say, software? After Effects, perhaps?). The whole thing just opens the floodgates on accusations of hypocrisy and double-standards, and I can only imagine the whole thing would be a mess. The only people with the uncontested right to impose restrictions on their content are the people who actually own the content or have been granted permissions to distribute it. Until fansubbing falls under that distinction, I feel this is a line that is too morally/ethically troubling to cross - even if you believe in and practice the "destroy after licensing" principle.

[Sylf]

Reasons for discontinuing distribution of licensed series? I have my own reasons. I'm just playing a risk game. Not doing licensed shows won't completely wipe away the chance of getting in legal trouble, but it decreases it. Asking people to discontinue is just a part of that. Once I ask, I don't go policing after people myself. Once people have the file, they can do whatever they wish with them. While seeing people selling them on e-bay does piss me off, I don't really try to kill those sellers. I know I see some stuff on other torrent sites, I don't go hunt them down and ask them to stop. *shrugs* I don't consider myself to be all that morl based fansubber.

And this is where I go off topic (which I've been doing a lot lately) - I'm not sure releasing subtitles only would be totally legal. Translated script also would carry the creative elements of the show - plot, etc, which would be a part of copyright. Distributing translation of copyrighted material should be also illegal. Wouldn't it?

Anyway. While I lead a unlicensed-show-only fansub group, I don't want DRM touching any of the stuff I deal with. They do more harm than good. (And if they go as far as wartermarking, they'd be destroying the image more than the subtitles we put on. Why would I want to allow that?)

[Access]

Right, a translation is a derived work so it in itself is illegal to distribute (unless the original work is in not copyrighted or in the public domain). You could try to argue fair use / educational value, but not for a complete translation of a full episode.

[LytHka]

DRM on fansubs would probably leave a good impression on the industry and this would be the only reason why I'd go with it, but there is just too much work involved with it, because the only sane thing would be to create a new media container and even that one would most likely get hacked. Plus, a few people have already made good points why not go with DRM, one of these would be more playback restrictions. And, yah, even with a working DRM, transscribers still exist.

@Starks: "Fansubs for Fansubbers" has just introduced a new feature. In a closed distro community, you'd have a lot more control over fansubs. In this case, I bow down to all fansubbers (and DVD rippers) who haven't distributed their stuff outside their group.

[bayoab]

I am not going to comment on specifics of the DRM issue because of a certain pot who decided to call the kettle black after he admitedly tries to compete with commercial releases. I will however comment on this:

Originally Posted by Sylf

Reasons for discontinuing distribution of licensed series? I have my own reasons. I'm just playing a risk game. Not doing licensed shows won't completely wipe away the chance of getting in legal trouble, but it decreases it. Asking people to discontinue is just a part of that. Once I ask, I don't go policing after people myself. Once people have the file, they can do whatever they wish with them. While seeing people selling them on e-bay does piss me off, I don't really try to kill those sellers. I know I see some stuff on other torrent sites, I don't go hunt them down and ask them to stop. *shrugs* I don't consider myself to be all that morl based fansubber.

The point of DRM would be to stop the mass spreading of the release after the release is pulled from the places of control. I have seen it multiple times the day a series gets licensed where the ethical fansubber pulls the torrent and someone throws a mass torrent on PB or Box or somewhere else. This just entirely defeats the purpose of pulling the torrent. The point of pulling distribution is to pull the mass spreading of it.

I am sure most ethical fansubbers do not care if people who download it pass it to their friends (no, this does not mean the internet is their friend) or other limited distribution methods. But selling subs, mass distributing them after licensing, etc all are just disrespectful of the people who subbed it and their wishes. This is an issue of respect for the people who subbed it, not an issue of ethicality. (I am sure someone is going to go "I want my releases to spread wide even after licensing". I feel sorry for you that you need that much attention.)

I will also say not all DRM is bad, but since none of you are involved with things where they actually use interesting forms of DRM instead of just "HAH, license key to play bitch", I won't even bother. And yes, implementing a good form of DRM in video files would be a bitch without special containers/codecs.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by LytHka

DRM on fansubs would probably leave a good impression on the industry

Oh? What makes you think that you actually copy-protecting their content as if it was yours to begin with would make them like you?

Originally Posted by LytHka

@Starks: "Fansubs for Fansubbers" has just introduced a new feature. In a closed distro community, you'd have a lot more control over fansubs.

You know what this resembles a lot? Guess? The warez scene. Closed FTP dumps, a lot of e-penis, and a rabid hate against the P2P networks. Oh, the irony...

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by bayoab

But selling subs, mass distributing them after licensing, etc all are just disrespectful of the people who subbed it and their wishes.

Have you ever considered the fact that mass distributing translations of random stuff might be disrespectful to the people who created it in the first place and their wishes?

[LytHka]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

Oh? What makes you think that you actually copy-protecting their content as if it was yours to begin with would make them like you?

More control? Once it's licensed, "CUT OFF THE SUBS!" and voila! (I meant the NA companies, btw.)

You know what this resembles a lot? Guess? The warez scene. Closed FTP dumps, a lot of e-penis, and a rabid hate against the P2P networks. Oh, the irony...

Indeed. Still, it is surprising how the warez scene actually (intentionally or unintentionally) leaks a lot of stuff.