Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[Tak]

Originally Posted by zalem

I would say there are many who don't believe GSD has any redeemable value at all and didn't self-correct. Poor GSD, it gets bashed so badly in the Gundam forum. I suppose it's kind of like how M7 gets thrashed too.

For me, GS / GSD had always been about Lacus and Kira. That itself is enough, and has numbers to prove it (ie. New Type). Good enough for me, I can forgive its other misgivings.

- Tak (I used to frequent the Gundam forum a lot myself, but since the days of 00? Not so much)

[zalem]

Originally Posted by Tak

For me, GS / GSD had always been about Lacus and Kira. That itself is enough, and has numbers to prove it (ie. New Type). Good enough for me, I can forgive its other misgivings.

- Tak (I used to frequent the Gundam forum a lot myself, but since the days of 00? Not so much)

That's exactly the reason why I can't hate GSD. I love Kira and Lacus, so no matter how messed up it got I still was hooked on watching it. But for people who hate Kira and Lacus, that's just more reason to hate GSD. They whine about god-mode and whatever other criticism they can throw out. Already with news of the movie's preproduction there are some whining about "Jesus Yamato" and spam-bots and god-mode.

Ok, getting way OT but I do tire of all the Kira bashing sometimes.

GS, like MF, is a lot more character driven, unlike 00. So I guess it's a matter of preference. If you prefer character driven/focused stories or stories with a more ensemble cast and more focus on the plot.

[BetoJR]

It all boils down to personal preferences. I'll be the first to admit liking Gundam 00 myself - even if most of the characters aren't really likable - but I'll also admit that, to me, it doesn't even come close to Macross Frontier when it's GOOD. Even more so when it's great.

But, really, this is a circular argument - kinda like those puerile "mine is bigger than yours" arguments.

[Urei]

Let's leave it at that and get back to the Macross shall we?

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by ZippyDSM

I guess G00 is to high a concept for most MF is more simple and whimsical.

Please don't act like Gundam 00 is Legend of Galactic Heroes... it's not.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Please don't act like Gundam 00 is Legend of Galactic Heroes... it's not.

True.

Legend of the Galactic Heroes is on a totally different league when it comes down to plot.

- Tak

[Balder8472]

is macross frontier going to have another season? because it kinda ended things in a very open way

[justavisitor]

it's going to be a retelling movie....like original macross and DYRL...and no one can predict what kind of ending we will receive from the movie

Hope it answers your question

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Tak

True.

Legend of the Galactic Heroes is on a totally different league when it comes down to plot.

- Tak

Exactly, I find it hilarious he thinks just because we prefer Macross Frontier to Gundam 00 we're incapable of following "intellectual" shows lol. Since when did Gundam 00 equal intellectual in the first place? Tytania which is also airing right now is LOGH lite and it still smokes 00 in that regard. Gundam 00 isn't even the best sci-fi work that Yousuke Kuroda (Series Composition, Screenplay for 00) has done, Infinite Ryvuis is far superior in script, plot and character development.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Exactly, I find it hilarious he thinks just because we prefer Macross Frontier to Gundam 00 we're incapable of following "intellectual" shows lol. Since when did Gundam 00 equal intellectual in the first place? Tytania which is also airing right now is LOGH lite and it still smokes 00 in that regard. Gundam 00 isn't even the best sci-fi work that Yousuke Kuroda (Series Composition, Screenplay for 00) has done, Infinite Ryvuis is far superior in script, plot and character development.

Obviously you haven't seen some of the recent episodes of Tytania which have been horrible on characterization, especially with regard to Lira and Estrades. Plus you can't tell me that Fan's part of the story hasn't been a drag on the overall "intellectual" appeal that is the Tytania portion of the story. I'm hard pressed to think of a single character in Gundam 00 that has been completely botched in terms of characterization or has behaved out of normal character from one episode to the next without good reason.

Might as well throw my opinion into the whole Gundam 00 vs. Macross Frontier debate even if I recognize that preference comes down to just that.

Macross Frontier to me had far more issues with characterization at certain points then Gundam 00 has had so far and I'd like to once again point out the example of everyone's darling in Sheryl Nome to attempt to illustrate this. Nothing has been quite so bizzare in my 2008 mecha experience as Sheryl the brave pop star idol who can stand up to any challenge suddenly becoming Sheryl the girl in need of moral support who wavers under the pressure of the same event she just stood defiantly in the face of a few minutes ago suddenly becoming Sheryl the galaxy's greatest wit (TM) suddenly becoming Sheryl the sassy high school student suddenly becoming Sheryl the lovestruck idol who is infatuated with Alto. "I'm invincible, no wait....yes nothing getss to me....what'll I do...gotta get what I want....so sad....I can't give up....I need you Alto...I'll do this for myself because I'm Sheryl Nome", that's what Sheryl's character seemed to be screaming to me, totally schizophrenic and I still don't know what to make of it to this day.

The girl changed personalities, roles relative to the other cast, and characterization almost as fast as she changed costumes during one of her concerts (As in on the fly with whatever personality/role they decide to zap onto the character as the plot demands it. Case in point the final episode where the plot demanded she pull a tag team with Ranka). Ranka also suffers from this problem too I found wherein her character was seemingly whatever the plot wanted it to be at any given moment instead of feeling solid and entrenched in her experiences. I still to this day cannot comprehend why people feel that Sheryl is such an amazing character when there's so many glaring issues with how she was handled. If Sheryl is so great then Ranka might as well be too since they both had about the same level of care put into bringing them up as characters, but no apparently Ranka is considered one of the worst characters of the year. Boggles the mind it does....and don't even get my started on Grace O'Connor. Only Marianne was able to top the "Wait a minute she's the bad guy?! WTF where did this come from?!" factor in 2008. That said, despite my misgivings with how both Ranka and Sheryl were developed I still found them to be likeable characters in the end, just not from a critical standpoint.

So at the end of the day while some of it's characters might be a fair bit dryer then those seen in Macross (I actually don't see this as a problem since I'm tired of all of the over overacted personalities we see a lot in anime characters these days and welcome a reserved vocal perfomance and portrayal for characters like Setsuna, Tieria, Sumeragi, Sergei, Ribbons, Wang, Marie etc) at least Gundam 00 is consistent in how it's characters behave and develop and you actually get to see them transition from one role into another smoothly, not just strictly as the plot seems to demand it. Some people might not identify with one or more of the characters or perhaps even all of them, but I find it hard to claim that they are less consistent in the long run then Macross Frontier's. Of course one show is over while the other is not and there's still plenty of room for Gundam 00 to blow it on the character front, but as it stands right now Gundam 00 is the better show for me character wise.

I don't expect anybody to agree with me on this (and really I can't expect many too either since it's the Macross Frontier board after all), but simply to hear me on it.

Originally Posted by ZippyDSM

I guess G00 is to high a concept for most MF is more simple and whimsical.

This is the first time I've seen G00 lorded over MF instead of the other way around and while a part of me wants to see it as justice given how I've been given the impression I've gotten that some people think I'm a lesser mecha fan for preferring Gundam over Macross, my inclination towards promoting the idea that taste and preference is not universal nor solely marred in one's intellectual capacities wins out in the end. I have to say that this is more then a little uncalled for (and not to mention insulting to Macross fans such as myself who sometimes just prefer to chill to the lighter hearted atmosphere of the franchise when Gundam just gets too heavy) and only serves to exacerbate the divide between fans of Gundam and Macross where there really not need be one. Is it not possible to be a fan of both Macross and Gundam anymore? To me both are just as important to the evolution of mecha anime, just as storied, and just as worthy of attention by mecha fandom (not to mention there's more then enough of it to go around) that there should be no need to choose between them. It's fair to prefer one over the other in the long run, but as a fellow Gundam 00 fan who indeed does prefer Gundam to Macross more often then not let's try not to be condescending shall we?

And in response to the response to this, Gundam 00 is most certainly not Legend of The Galactic Heroes nor is it trying to be.

[magnuskn]

I fear your "characterization" of Sheryl fails, just simply because you state a lot of "facts", without backing them up in the slightest. If you care to, give us specific examples, instead of blanket statements, so we can discuss those properly.

The real fact is that tons of people love Sheryls character, how she was built up and deconstructed over the span of the series. If her portrayal would have been as "schizophrenic" as you state, I don´t think we´d have gotten so many amazing people here dissecting and still loving her character arc over the last months.

Yeah, Rankas character arc failed. It began to be noticeable during the second half of the series, and then came crushing down hard around episode 20. She still has a more interesting personality than most of the walking zombies from Gundam 00.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I fear your "characterization" of Sheryl fails, just simply because you state a lot of "facts", without backing them up in the slightest. If you care to, give us specific examples, instead of blanket statements, so we can discuss those properly.

The real fact is that tons of people love Sheryls character, how she was built up and deconstructed over the span of the series. If her portrayal would have been as "schizophrenic" as you state, I don´t think we´d have gotten so many amazing people here dissecting and still loving her character arc over the last months.

Yeah, Rankas character arc failed. It began to be noticeable during the second half of the series, and then came crushing down hard around episode 20. She still has a more interesting personality than most of the walking zombies from Gundam 00.

Specific examples? Okay, first there are her reactions to other people leading up to and during her first meeting with Alto. First she came across as cold, unconcerned arrogant and distant, then suddenly it was playful, world wise and full of humility, then the next time they met it was back to the first Sheryl. Next there was the Sheryl during the time spent in the shelter during the one Vajra attack with her alternating between calm and reassuring and then hysterical and desperate and then something somewhere inbetween. Next it was her seemingly conflicting demeanor in dealing with the potential fate of Galaxy from one scene to the next where I could never quite tell if she trying to reassure herself and everyone else and to steel herself and show resolve, or if she was giving in to the idea that her home might be gone forever. Honestly it felt like it was both at the same time again, hence adding the schizophrenic feel of her character. Then there was her awkward introduction as a student in the school, which was more silly then schizophrenic and reminded of the episode of Code Geass R2 where everybody was wearing those hats and everyone was suddenly behaving like a character in a high school parody anime. In a way it almost felt like it brought her character development back to square one.

This brings us up to about the halfway point of the show where we now find out that she had been drugged by Grace all of this time, which I could almost swear was Kawamori's way of trying to deal with the bizarre portrayal of her character and her inconsistent behaviour up to that point since it could then potentially be argued that any inconsistancies in her behaviour, sudden unexplained mood swings etc were a result of the drugs that Grace was giving her. It really came across as a fix more then a legitimate plot element. After that she's fairly consistent in portraying a downtrodden character who's life has been shot to hell by sudden revelations, but the damage was done and as a result it baffles me how people can call Sheryl Nome a great character, maybe a satisfactory one, but given the awkwardness of her character in the early episodes I cannot see her as great or smoothly and consistently developed in the long run.

Of course the majority obviously doesn't see it this way, but really the whole entire world could love Sheryl's character development for all I care and it wouldn't change a thing for me since I evaluate characters on my own terms with my own sets of criteria and that's all their really is too it. Furthermore, what you refer to as an "interesting personality" to me might come across as over the top and forced, whereas what you refer to as "zombies" might come across to me as more reserved and determined. Really I don't care as like I said I'm not here to change anybody's minds (it pays to read the entirety of a person's post instead of just the parts containing their conclusions), I'm just here to say my part in the debate. And boy do I have deja vu right now. Obviously your free to like Sheryl's character and really I do too but for those flaws I cannot shake off in how she came across to me. I still don't find her as consistent as the average Gundam 00 lead though and I still prefer Gundam 00's "zombies" in the long run.
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[Swampstorm]

The key to this discussion lies in how you understand the word "inconsistant". When you say that someone's behavior is inconsistant, you aren't comparing their behavior at two different instants in time (i.e. today I'm cheerful, but yesterday I was grumpy). Rather, you're comparing their behavior to your preconceptions of how the person 'normally' behaves in a given situation. So when you say that someone is behaving inconsistantly, you're implying that you find the person in question to be unpredictable.

The part that I find confusing is in how you use the word "inconsistant" to connote that a character is somehow "illogical". While this meaning would be appropriate if we were specifically talking about logic statements (two statements that are inconsistant are contradictory, and thus illogical), this doesn't apply to the word "inconsistant" in general.

While I suppose that there's an element of personal taste involved here as well, I don't think that there's anything wrong with having a character who's unpredictable along for the ride. If anything, it's fun.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Specific examples? Okay, first there are her reactions to other people leading up to and during her first meeting with Alto. First she came across as cold, unconcerned arrogant and distant, then suddenly it was playful, world wise and full of humility, then the next time they met it was back to the first Sheryl.

I´d put her at first rather rude behaviour down to jetlag. Also, she was not happy about having "flight students", which translated to her to amateurs, doing the flight stunts during her show. And what happens, Alto proves her right almost immediately!

The next time she appears, it is for the stroll around with Ranka... there her normal personality is on display. She isn´t normally rude, but, yeah, a bit conceited. After all she is Sheryl Nome(-yo!). As far as she is concerned, she built up her career by her own strength. Here she is rather flattered by Rankas unknowing adulation and also likes what she sees in her... a sweet girl with a lot of talent, who also wants to be a singer.

As for the "next time they met it was back to the first Sheryl."...

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Next there was the Sheryl during the time spent in the shelter during the one Vajra attack with her alternating between calm and reassuring and then hysterical and desperate and then something somewhere inbetween.

*This* is the next time she appears... from the very beginning in episode three, so we go directly to this paragraph.

Where exactly was she hysterical and desperate? I´ve watched this scene lots of times, and besides natural concern over a battle unfolding outside and then the danger of suffocating, she is determined to escape the danger on as much her own merits as she can.

Her confrontation with Alto is already showing her tsundere side which we all here love and care about... it is pretty divorced from the situation they are in, besides that imminent danger maybe putting both of them more on edge.

Seriously, you are relating a completely different characterization here as from what really happened. What gives?

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Next it was her seemingly conflicting demeanor in dealing with the potential fate of Galaxy from one scene to the next where I could never quite tell if she trying to reassure herself and everyone else and to steel herself and show resolve, or if she was giving in to the idea that her home might be gone forever. Honestly it felt like it was both at the same time again, hence adding the schizophrenic feel of her character.

Uh, okay. Her home was attacked and all communications were cut off, so of course she is feeling uncertainity about its ultimate fate. But her outward behaviour is quite consistent... she tries to assure people that Galaxy will be okay, she will return there, etc.

That she herself is conflicted somewhat is natural, if you payed attention. She hated living on Galaxy, but nonetheless it is her home. So she hopes that everything goes well and tries to lift the general morale. There is no contradiction.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Then there was her awkward introduction as a student in the school, which was more silly then schizophrenic and reminded of the episode of Code Geass R2 where everybody was wearing those hats and everyone was suddenly behaving like a character in a high school parody anime. In a way it almost felt like it brought her character development back to square one.

Yeah, well, episode eight doesn´t really stand out as the highpoint of the series, what can I say. The animation was atrocious and the general feeling of "wacky high school comedy" didn´t serve well after the drama of episode seven or even the rest of what had come before. So we have to take into account that all the personalities of the characters were somewhat exaggerated for this episode by design.

And also, we have here one of the really obvious plotholes of the series, because one ship from Macross Galaxy, the Kaitos, was rescued and basically nobody bothered to interrogate any of those people. Until the very last two episodes that ship didn´t turn up again anymore and then it was basically a three-second sight.

That being said, Sheryl here is back to her playful characterization from episode five ( which you didn´t bother to mention before, come to think of it ). So her characterization continues to be pretty consistant. Basically, she joins because of Alto, but then also discovers the EX-Gear and that she wants do learn to fly with it. And then she does. Typical Sheryl, and fully within her characterization.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

This brings us up to about the halfway point of the show where we now find out that she had been drugged by Grace all of this time, which I could almost swear was Kawamori's way of trying to deal with the bizarre portrayal of her character and her inconsistent behaviour up to that point since it could then potentially be argued that any inconsistancies in her behaviour, sudden unexplained mood swings etc were a result of the drugs that Grace was giving her. It really came across as a fix more then a legitimate plot element. After that she's fairly consistent in portraying a downtrodden character who's life has been shot to hell by sudden revelations, but the damage was done and as a result it baffles me how people can call Sheryl Nome a great character, maybe a satisfactory one, but given the awkwardness of her character in the early episodes I cannot see her as great or smoothly and consistently developed in the long run.

Wow, you are really skipping lots of stuff here. I won´t waste my time recapping all the other stuff which happens to her here, I need something for my planned essay after all, so lets stay with the parts you mention.

As far as Sheryl being now that downtrodden character... if you´d been told at the age of seventeen that you´d die soon because of an incurable disease, I guess that´d come as a big shock for you, correct?

Well, Sheryl continues to show her great determination and graciousness still after that, and decides to shorten the rest of her lifespan to help the people of Frontier survive. This doesn´t happen completely unexpectedly, because it had been consistently shown during the series that Sheryl is thoughtful of others and tries to help them, even if it discomforts her greatly ( think wanting to give Alto his present, when she even couldn´t leave bed because of her fever ).

She hides a lot of this helpful personality under a shell of a somewhat arrogant starlet. It should be noted that such a somewhat fake personality may be necessary to survive in showbiz, where everyone wants something from you, because of your fame. I´m not suggesting that she faked all of it, a lot of it is real pride over what she accomplished by her own merits and she normally really is as playful as she comes off in the episodes until her illness.

But her *real* personality shone through since the very beginning. I´d love to say "Strawberry Pie-wa" was already the beginning, but, realistically speaking, it can be seen by episode two already.

Sorry, but you fail to convince me that her personality had wild changes. By all I have seen ( and hopefully elucidated somewhat eloquently ), she was portrayed very consistently throughout the series.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Of course the majority obviously doesn't see it this way, but really the whole entire world could love Sheryl's character development for all I care and it wouldn't change a thing for me since I evaluate characters on my own terms with my own sets of criteria and that's all their really is too it. Furthermore, what you refer to as an "interesting personality" to me might come across as over the top and forced, whereas what you refer to as "zombies" might come across to me as more reserved and determined. Really I don't care as like I said I'm not here to change anybody's minds (it pays to read the entirety of a person's post instead of just the parts containing their conclusions), I'm just here to say my part in the debate.

This is a discussion board, and a very Sheryl-centric one. It is quite easy to see when you look at the posts. So, if you come here and begin slagging Sheryl for her character being "schizophrenic" and "inconsistent", you have to live with people vocally disagreeing. That what discussion is all about.

I challenged you to provide specific examples where you thought those attributes you said apply to Sheryl, you did so, now I refuted them. I´ve been long enough on discussion boards that I know that I most probably won´t change your mind.... but that doesn´t mean that I can simply let stand what I perceive to be completely false arguments.

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[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

The key to this discussion lies in how you understand the word "inconsistant". When you say that someone's behavior is inconsistant, you aren't comparing their behavior at two different instants in time (i.e. today I'm cheerful, but yesterday I was grumpy). Rather, you're comparing their behavior to your preconceptions of how the person 'normally' behaves. In other words, you're implying that the person in question is unpredictable.

The part that I find confusing is in how you use the word "inconsistant" to connote that a character is somehow "illogical". While this meaning would be appropriate if we were specifically talking about logic statements (two statements that are inconsistant are contradictory, and thus illogical), this doesn't apply to the word "inconsistant" in general.

While I suppose that there's an element of personal taste involved here as well, I don't think that there's anything wrong with having a character who's unpredictable along for the ride. If anything, it's fun.

Yes it certainly doesn't hurt the character's fun factor, but it still irks me nonetheless that through it all I never really got any sort of sense for Sheryl's normal personality. Some might say it makes her complex (characters are allowed to be flexible to a degree after all) but to me it just seemed messy and like she was being dragged all over the place character wise as if she was synced up to the plot's demands in that regard. And I don't mean synced up in the usual way, but as if the plot defined her character for the first half or so instead of the character defining the character through a noticeable set of actions consistent with a definable personality. With room allowed for reasonable flexibility of course.

I don't really feel I've gotten to know a character or that they've been truly developed properly until I can get a small sense for how they might react to a situation in their own unique way as it's presented, and with Sheryl that time didn't come until a little bit over the halfway point. Then again there was a lot of muddling around in the first half too I found so that might have something to do with it. They just never gave her the proper environment for which I could get a feel for her as the plot just kept jerking her from one circumstance to another before I could get her down.

I certainly didn't let it ruin my enjoyment of the show or the character if that's what you think, it's just that it keeps me from feeling that she was all that well written a character and when you combine that with Ranka's portrayal which just gets weird and cryptic as hell in the second half, I am left with a show where two key characters spend half the series alternatively just not feeling very well defined and developed. Combine that time together and I suppose you could say that during the whole show a key character is offputting from a critical perspective....sort of.

Bringing that back to the debate, that's a weakness I felt Gundam 00 just didn't have in any of it's key characters, however dry they might come across personality wise. I feel I've come to understand the key characters in Gundam 00 in their own unique circumstances and not only that, they are also given a chance to show changes in perspective and I felt this was portrayed better then any similar situation in Macross as we got to seem them go through these changes by themselves over time and as a result of their experiences instead of it coming after a talk with Alto or the like.

Then again Gundam 00 is a plot driven show whereas Macross Frontier is primarily character driven with the Vajra there simply to act as an antagonist for the most part. This by the way is another part of what I was trying to convey in that it throws things a bit off for me to have a character driven anime feel like the characters are being driven solely by the plot at times and overall it just felt like the plot and characters were pulling each over all over the place instead of meshing together to form a nice cohesive narrative. Really though it comes down to what you go for, but in the end I feel that in an overall combination of character, story and narrative that Gundam 00 comes out the more intriguing and balanced of the two, even when you take into account that the ratio of plot/character/pacing is different between the two series to begin with. Personal preference of course.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

This is a discussion board, and a very Sheryl-centric one. It is quite easy to see when you look at the posts. So, if you come here and begin slagging Sheryl for her character being "schizophrenic" and "inconsistent", you have to live with people vocally disagreeing. That what discussion is all about.

I challenged you to provide specific examples where you thought those attributes you said apply to Sheryl, you did so, now I refuted them. I´ve been long enough on discussion boards that I know that I most probably won´t change your mind.... but that doesn´t mean that I can simply let stand what I perceive to be completely false arguments.
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I already said I was willing to live with it, I don't know why you missed that implication. Though that's precisely why I don't expect people to see the Sheryl that I saw since they are already so biased towards her as this image of perfection in characterization. Rest assured I had noted pretty much all that you mentioned and yet still something did not click with regard to how her character was portrayed in the sections I mentioned. It's really not something I can put into words though as it's a purely subjective feeling that the character was being developed as needed by the plot and to appeal to fans rather then naturally. In all of those scenes I mentioned there was also no doubt what was intended, it's just that each time I felt that the execution didn't convey what was needed properly and awkwardly mixed her stage persona with her real persona. Then again compared to what I've seen in some of the shows that have aired since the end of Frontier, any qualms I had with her character portrayal look like nothing and she really came into her own in the second half around the time that we lost Ranka completely.
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[justavisitor]

I guess I can see each side's point of view (I should state clearly that i am neutral in this matter)

Well, macross frontier only has 25 episodes...so I guess character personality has to jump fast forward sometimes...Sheryl character in the early stage has displayed several different characteristic but when you are with Grace all the time, one bounds to have some character issue XD

On the other hand, I guess many ppl like to see Sheryl standing firm to face different challenges, I like it too, even tho I am a ranka fan...even tho frankly, she just says the phrase " I am Sheryl!!!" and then hits all the right button afterward is a little bit bland (it's like the phrase "I am Sheryl" is a magic word XD) but considering that it has only 25 episodes and I can't think of a better way to handle this, I will let this pass

So I guess both sides have reasons behind their arguments (Lol I just provoke both sides do I )

Well about Macross vs Gundam...gundam 00 has 50 episodes, so it's no suprise that the character is more consistent (but I don't like how Graham has behaved in S2..he just blindly wants to fight)

My favourite mecha shows are patlabor, Brave saga Dagarn, and Mashin Eiyūden Wataru 1 and 2 (I doubt ppl in here know these shows because they are so old.....) Those shows are way better than gundam 00 and Macross frontier (oops I provoke both sides again do I XD)

[zalem]

Tytania better than 00? Personally, I don't think so. The Fan side of the story is so weak that it really brings the series down. If it weren't for the excellent Tytania side I would've dropped the series long ago. For a lead character, Fan is badly developed. But I suppose I've already ranted enough about that in the Tytania thread.

Gundam 00 is not perfect with it's characterization though. One character that I think they totally botched up in season 2 is Graham. He has little use or purpose in season 2. They might as well have killed him off at the end of season 1 during his fight with Setsuna. It's a shame because he was one of my favorites.

Still, I think MF's botching of Ranka's character is far, far worse. And again I still have huge problems with the badly handled vajra and galaxy plots. I don't think I can ever let that slide. Maybe they'll fix it in the movie though, hopefully....

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

As far as I know Tak and Crusader have nothing in common and I have no desire to start any sort of bad blood between the former. As for the latter, the only thing interesting about his mode of thinking is how fragmented it is. It's good for a larf so he probably would be welcome for the bizzaro factor alone

I actually find Crusaders posts for Macross Frontier to be very well thought out, cogent and direct to the point.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Anyway, I certainly have no desire to run away, but I would imagine that this is settled and that I can move on to other things now.

Since your argument basically is "I feel like it, I don´t have a better explanation", I think it is settled.

[vivitoru]

Everyone seems really keen on comparing Macross Frontier and Gundam 00 today but I've yet to see anyone bringing one of the most important point (maybe this is too "shallow").

Mecha design wise, I certainly think there is no possible comparison: Kawamori's VF are far more sexier (in addition to being far more intricate) than those Gudams we are currently seeing (it all comes down to personnal tastes but I wanted to say it ).

I also think that the battles scenes in Macross Frontier were better choregraphed and combined with those awesome songs and BGMs (thank to May'n/Sheryl and Kanno's efforts) made the most enthralling action scenes of 2008 (mecha of course). The only action scene in Gundam 00 that would come close to this would be the one in episode 14 (16 min approximatively).

It's curious that nobody even bring out this issue when talking about their enjoyment of those series since the 2 shows are mecha ones after all.

For the characters issue I would just say that Gundam 00 cast (for the most part) is composed of people trained to wage war from their childhood (I assume you don't become a Meister overnight) and that's what they do over the course of 50 episodes: wage war. Of course they would act constitently even if they make choices that do not seem logical at all sometimes (especially Sestuna).

On the other hand we have a cast of teenagers whose world got turned upside down. I think it's a given their reactions wouldn't be as monotonous.
The only two who got into a similar situation over the course of G00 (and I mean during the actual serie) are Louise and Saji with the former being hell bent on revenge while the latter does nothing but lament for the main part.

[justavisitor]

in terms of robot design, sure the VF is sexier, more streamline (is this the right word? XD) but the funny thing is , Gundam as a robot is more attractive because it has many different weapons and features

Freedom has wings, wing zero can transform, virtue has another robot inside etc, each one is different, sure it's actually pretty unrealistic, but on the other hand, from VF-1 to VF-25, there is not much difference in terms of weapons choice or any special feature...

Of course, gundam battle is too focused on 1vs1, while VF battle is much more fitted to our modern time, but Gundam itself as a robot is pretty attractive to audience because it focuses on the robot more XD

that's my opinion of course