AnimeSuki Forums

Tong · 2012-01-10, 00:01

You know what would be fun?

That Oblivion that makes combat more deep and dangerous, I forgot the game but looks amazing.

Vexx · 2012-01-10, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I don't mind having my house broken into... As long as it gives me the option to hunt down the bastard to get my stuff back and stick his head on a pike for all to see.

Exactly... it'd be another line of quests.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2012-01-10, 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

You're completely missing the point of a simple potential game feature... but carry on.

It just seems like every obstacle and interference in the game is "griefing" using that criteria O.o When the guard hassles you for cash, that's "griefing", when the merchant overcharges you, that's "griefing", when the dragon swoops in at random when you were trying to do something else... wolf packs attack... bandit ambushes... Astrid grabbing you in the night..

We just happen to be thinking of other ways to add interest and breadth to the game via mod or whatever.

Mod? Mod whatever.

I am just pointing out the Bethesda forum posters who have the audacity to force their idea of "fun" on everyone. Put it simply, to have items stolen is a FORCED quest. A repeatable one at that. By your idea I would be forced to catch thieves every two in-game weeks as the game repeatedly steal stuff from me.

Would you like the main quest forced on you? Would you like the Brotherhood quest forced on you? Would you like ANY quest forced on you? No?

How about forcing your character to become a vampire? That sounds like a fun quest isn't it? Making you take a quest whether you wanted it or not?
Then don't force a "hunt the thief" quest on me.

Ithekro · 2012-01-10, 02:07

Depends on the kind of game. And what kind of Game Master/Dungeon Master the game programmers had him mind for the AI.

Random Encounters are just that, Random. Random chance that your home gets broken into or you get robbed is another things certain GMs do to get you on quests. Especially you the players aren't following where the GM wants them to go for a quest chain. Otherwise you just randomly got robbed as a random encounter....sucks to be you. Most players would want to go after the thief at that point even if there was no quest.

So instead of it be a repeatable quest...have a random single time quest that starts with you getting robbed, or your home broken into. You could let the guy go and take your stuff and not follow up on it, but then the reward could be more if you do...plus, he stole YOUR stuff. Its personal then.

The quest could lead to a chain, or any number of other chains if you found things that belong to other NPCs...you return them, maybe for a reward, or maybe just to get some other quest chain started. Even if it is the even more random one where they see you with their stuff and think you are the thief. Or a vendor takes it but sends you off to get more of whatever it is, or to find the rest of a set that was stolen. Quest starters.

In the cases of Main Quests...they are usually forced on you by way of the plot. Especially in RPGs. In a Roleplaying game, if the players go off and do random stuff for too long while the GM has a story to tell...he'll find a way to make them play his story.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2012-01-10, 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

So instead of it be a repeatable quest...have a random single time quest that starts with you getting robbed, or your home broken into. You could let the guy go and take your stuff and not follow up on it, but then the reward could be more if you do...plus, he stole YOUR stuff. Its personal then.

See, how many times do you intend the theft to repeat itself?

That's what I am asking. How many times do you think home invasions should occur before it stops being amusing and it is no longer worth buying a house?

A GM in a proper dice and paper game session can tell if the player is sick of the random thefts and decide it is time to stop bothering the player. The computer does not. That's the differnce; a GM doesn't do things randomly, he is free to ignore chance encounters and dice rolls if he deems it harms the gameplay. But we got no such luxury in a PC game. If you put something into the game that happens over and over, then you better make sure it isn't ANNOYING once you redo it the hundredth time.

The proper response when you have your stuff stolen isn't to take it back from the thief; it is to never use that house again. Players are not retarded, they know when they are been punished for paying money for a useless storage system that doesn't work. The same way you won't use a car that won't start.

It's like, if one of the shops in Skyrim sells food that has 1% chance of being poisoned. Would you buy food items from that shop?

GMs can throw challenges at the player to make things fun, but a GM knows when to tone it down. A Computer does not know the meaning of restraint. If you code something in, it would just keep happening, day after day. Houses that get broken into just wouldn't be used at all. Unless you are a masochist.

Ithekro · 2012-01-10, 02:44

I said single.

Like most quests, you only get it once. It just starts at a random time. Either it never happesn, or happens because you are failing to do something and the game needs to kick you in the ass to get you to move.

Vexx · 2012-01-10, 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

See, how many times do you intend the theft to repeat itself?

That's what I am asking. How many times do you think home invasions should occur before it stops being amusing and it is no longer worth buying a house?

A GM in a proper dice and paper game session can tell if the player is sick of the random thefts and decide it is time to stop bothering the player. The computer does not. That's the differnce; a GM doesn't do things randomly, he is free to ignore chance encounters and dice rolls if he deems it harms the gameplay. But we got no such luxury in a PC game. If you put something into the game that happens over and over, then you better make sure it isn't ANNOYING once you redo it the hundredth time.

The proper response when you have your stuff stolen isn't to take it back from the thief; it is to never use that house again. Players are not retarded, they know when they are been punished for paying money for a useless storage system that doesn't work. The same way you won't use a car that won't start.

It's like, if one of the shops in Skyrim sells food that has 1% chance of being poisoned. Would you buy food items from that shop?

GMs can throw challenges at the player to make things fun, but a GM knows when to tone it down. A Computer does not know the meaning of restraint. If you code something in, it would just keep happening, day after day. Houses that get broken into just wouldn't be used at all. Unless you are a masochist.

That's not really how such a quest would be programmed and like Ithekro says, it could be a one time event or be based on any number of variables (including whether certain factions in a town had been put down or not). Software can be quite nuanced and subtle. I used to do system simulations for a living that were used to train pilots, astronauts, etc. It can be far more well modeled than "if house, then 40%==steal" or "if sleep, then 20%==attack".
And yeah, you might *need* to buy food that has a 1% chance of poison if you're passing through a crappy town and are out of food.

It just seems really odd that you're okay with all the existing "random encounters" in the game but this idea seems to have you in a panic. Snow Yeti may leap on you in the mountains... so don't use mountain roads at all?

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2012-01-10, 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

That's not really how such a quest would be programmed and like Ithekro says, it could be a one time event or be based on any number of variables (including whether certain factions in a town had been put down or not). Software can be quite nuanced and subtle. I used to do system simulations for a living that were used to train pilots, astronauts, etc. It can be far more well modeled than "if house, then 40%==steal" or "if sleep, then 20%==attack".
And yeah, you might *need* to buy food that has a 1% chance of poison if you're passing through a crappy town and are out of food.

It just seems really odd that you're okay with all the existing "random encounters" in the game but this idea seems to have you in a panic. Snow Yeti may leap on you in the mountains... so don't use mountain roads at all?

I can kill snow yetis. I also did not pay money so I could get the privilege of being attacked by snow yetis.

houses are suppose to be safe. That's why people pay for them. If they are not safe, I am better off carrying everything on Lydia and just live on the streets like a hobo.

And if food is risky to buy then I will go hunt my own meat.

My point is that you think randomly throwing in punishments is somehow rewarding. People AVOID being punished. Like how someone might climb the throat of the world using a horse from the wrong side of the mountain just to avoid the ice troll.

I ask you again, would you like your character to be randomly turned into a vampire again your will? Or what if you got turned into a werewolf in the Companions quest without the option of refusal? The whole "isn't it FUN if something break into my expensive house and stole things!" is just insane. I will flatout refuse to BUY the damn house.

Keroko · 2012-01-10, 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

How about forcing your character to become a vampire? That sounds like a fun quest isn't it? Making you take a quest whether you wanted it or not?
Then don't force a "hunt the thief" quest on me.

Oblivion had that one, actually. Sleeping in the middle of nowhere, or even outside on empty bedrolls, had a chance of a vampire pop in for a midnight snack on your neck.

Made me save before every nap I took.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2012-01-10, 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Oblivion had that one, actually. Sleeping in the middle of nowhere, or even outside on empty bedrolls, had a chance of a vampire pop in for a midnight snack on your neck.

Made me save before every nap I took.

We have autosaves now. So that's not necessary.

Tong · 2012-01-10, 08:19

A mod like this would be annoying as hell.
And lol, don't compare something that's meant to be in-game with some half-made unplanned mod.
A game never obliged me to do something, and I would never want something like that. The line between annoying and challenging is very thin.

DuoRanger · 2012-01-10, 09:55

someone should make a mod about the marriage crap, i mean Look aela's quests of rampage bcuz of skjor death

or special quests using this idea

Vexx · 2012-01-10, 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I can kill snow yetis. I also did not pay money so I could get the privilege of being attacked by snow yetis.

houses are suppose to be safe. That's why people pay for them. If they are not safe, I am better off carrying everything on Lydia and just live on the streets like a hobo.

And if food is risky to buy then I will go hunt my own meat.

My point is that you think randomly throwing in punishments is somehow rewarding. People AVOID being punished. Like how someone might climb the throat of the world using a horse from the wrong side of the mountain just to avoid the ice troll.

I ask you again, would you like your character to be randomly turned into a vampire again your will? Or what if you got turned into a werewolf in the Companions quest without the option of refusal? The whole "isn't it FUN if something break into my expensive house and stole things!" is just insane. I will flatout refuse to BUY the damn house.

The Astrid scenario is a big weak point in your assertion -- that's a scenario forced on the player. They can't leave the room without someone dying. There's no way to know beforehand that this will happen.

And... you have to know the snow yeti is there to avoid it - the NPCs just keep going on about the 7000 steps you will walk rather than rappelling up the side of the mountain. And it does cost you money to attack snow yetis... cost of equipment, cost of potions, time of ascent - play time if the yeti keep kicking your ass.

The Blood-Silver storyliine... how is the player supposed to know that playing detective is going to have the entire city guard killing them?

How do you *know* the food was or was not risky before you decide to hunt instead?

How do you know you and Lydia won't be pickpocketed on the streets? Or accosted by bandits? A house would definitely be safer, especially if you had a helper watching it or hired security.

You're assuming the worst possible implementation of a "I was stolen from" or "I was pickpocketed" quest line and that it is somehow fundamentally different than many of the other quests in the game. As for the werewolf or vampire idea... why *wouldn't* there be a risk of becoming one if you engage in battle with them? That's how they work, its dangerous. Why are houses "supposed to be safe"? The player is certainly spending the entire game breaking into them.... depending on their hobbies.

This is a non-linear immersive game, so there's no reason not to have consequences that one might experience in an immersive environment. And actually, Skyrim does. Its full of "forced" consequences for choices the player makes -- the player often doesn't know the ramifications of any choice made.

I really had no intention of this subthread being more than a "hmm, interesting". Its not in the game and we're discussing meta-game theory about where to draw the line in logical consequences, immersion, and roleplay.

Keroko · 2012-01-10, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

We have autosaves now. So that's not necessary.

Still, it was a thrill that had me pondering "Sleep here and take the risk, or keep on walking?" every time I saw a bedroll.

Fun times, really.

Tong · 2012-01-10, 16:05

Why to study Gaming-Psychology if there's AnimeSuki...

Urzu 7 · 2012-01-10, 20:48

I still think the things we have discussed could work well if implemented well. The thing is, it is easy to see a developer not implementing it just right and making some mad. But for the game idea of houses being broken into, I was thinking just a small amount of things get stolen, not that many things, and perhaps certain items would be off-limits for what can be stolen. And hey, maybe a perk a developer could implement is that when you hunt down the thief, you get your stuff back and sweet loot, too! Maybe you trace him back to a thieves den and get a lot of sweet loot for going after your stuff.

There is other ways they could balance out the challenges of this. Like I said, the best houses don't get stolen from, and for the cheaper houses that do, maybe after a high enough level, the break-ins stop, or perhaps only houses in seedy towns/cities get broken into, and if you take on sidequests to help clean up the town and minimize crime, break-ins cease and you get other rewards for helping the city.

If implemented right, these things can be overall good, I think. It is just a matter of them being handled right. And in Skyrim, there can be things that can be seen as similar to this that can be frustrating to some. I was at a low level and three hard thugs (they were hard for my low level) came up to me to "teach me a lesson" for stealing. I hadn't started stealing yet at that point in the game. I probably accidently stole something. Anyway, I had to reload a save a few times before I killed the thugs. But it was kind of fun to have something like that in the game. I don't mind interesting and added challenges like this in the game, and games like this, if they are handled well.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2012-01-10, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

I hadn't started stealing yet at that point in the game. I probably accidently stole something.

The thugs, when killed, would have a note telling you who hired them.

If you don't steal then the thugs won't spawn. Please don't compare that to the idea of having an expensive house useless for safe storage,.

Urzu 7 · 2012-01-10, 21:50

They probably won't put something like that in TES VI, anyway. It seems like stuff from old school PC RPGs. I was reading up on TES Arena and how it was very hard and especially hard for RPG noobs. In the beginning of the game, you break out of a dungeon that you are a prisoner of. And it is really hard. Like, if you take too long getting out, you run into enemies that are higher level than you and kill you easily. One of the lead designers of Morrowind said he started at least 20 games in TES Arena and made it out of the dungeon only once (so I guess he had to start from the beginning after each time he died). Old school PC RPGs were frustratingly hard, I take it.

Ithekro · 2012-01-10, 22:00

It isn't useless for safe storage. It would be the game (GM) kicking you for not doing something you were suppose to be doing. Getting you back on the rails. And if it only happened once, that after you finish the quest....your expenisve house is secure for the rest of the game. Consider that it would probably happen eariler in the game when you had a less expensive house...depending on just how that works

(Since I don't play this. I just remember how RGPs go under a pencil and paper GM. A proper GM doesn't pull the same trick twice.)

It would even do for all that would be stolen is money and/or a specific quest item...that might be the trigger fot the quest in the first place. Or something from the house itself that isn't techincally something you were saving, but you might need...like say your bedding...or the door. Something silly, but you still need to go after him for a logical reason.

Urzu 7 · 2012-01-12, 01:04

I heard of something called Skyrim Boost. It makes the game run better. Does the latest version of this Skyrim Boost cause more bugs? I don't know if I'd want it if there are more bugs. Are some people using it and they would recommend using Skyrim Boost?

How do you guys think my PC will run Skyrim with graphic enhancement mods?

Radeon HD 5750 1 GB
AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition (quad core, 3.2 GHz)
4 GB of 1600 RAM.

2012-01-10, 00:01	Link #2001
Tong Many RPGs, Little Time Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: BR Age: 32	You know what would be fun? That Oblivion that makes combat more deep and dangerous, I forgot the game but looks amazing. __________________

2012-01-10, 02:07	Link #2004
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Depends on the kind of game. And what kind of Game Master/Dungeon Master the game programmers had him mind for the AI. Random Encounters are just that, Random. Random chance that your home gets broken into or you get robbed is another things certain GMs do to get you on quests. Especially you the players aren't following where the GM wants them to go for a quest chain. Otherwise you just randomly got robbed as a random encounter....sucks to be you. Most players would want to go after the thief at that point even if there was no quest. So instead of it be a repeatable quest...have a random single time quest that starts with you getting robbed, or your home broken into. You could let the guy go and take your stuff and not follow up on it, but then the reward could be more if you do...plus, he stole YOUR stuff. Its personal then. The quest could lead to a chain, or any number of other chains if you found things that belong to other NPCs...you return them, maybe for a reward, or maybe just to get some other quest chain started. Even if it is the even more random one where they see you with their stuff and think you are the thief. Or a vendor takes it but sends you off to get more of whatever it is, or to find the rest of a set that was stolen. Quest starters. In the cases of Main Quests...they are usually forced on you by way of the plot. Especially in RPGs. In a Roleplaying game, if the players go off and do random stuff for too long while the GM has a story to tell...he'll find a way to make them play his story. __________________

2012-01-10, 02:44	Link #2006
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	I said single. Like most quests, you only get it once. It just starts at a random time. Either it never happesn, or happens because you are failing to do something and the game needs to kick you in the ass to get you to move. __________________

2012-01-10, 08:19	Link #2011
Tong Many RPGs, Little Time Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: BR Age: 32	A mod like this would be annoying as hell. And lol, don't compare something that's meant to be in-game with some half-made unplanned mod. A game never obliged me to do something, and I would never want something like that. The line between annoying and challenging is very thin. __________________

2012-01-10, 16:05	Link #2015
Tong Many RPGs, Little Time Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: BR Age: 32	Why to study Gaming-Psychology if there's AnimeSuki... __________________

2012-01-10, 09:55	Link #2012
DuoRanger Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: who knows?	someone should make a mod about the marriage crap, i mean Look aela's quests of rampage bcuz of skjor death or special quests using this idea

2012-01-10, 20:48	Link #2016
Urzu 7 Juanita/Kiteless Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New England Age: 40	I still think the things we have discussed could work well if implemented well. The thing is, it is easy to see a developer not implementing it just right and making some mad. But for the game idea of houses being broken into, I was thinking just a small amount of things get stolen, not that many things, and perhaps certain items would be off-limits for what can be stolen. And hey, maybe a perk a developer could implement is that when you hunt down the thief, you get your stuff back and sweet loot, too! Maybe you trace him back to a thieves den and get a lot of sweet loot for going after your stuff. There is other ways they could balance out the challenges of this. Like I said, the best houses don't get stolen from, and for the cheaper houses that do, maybe after a high enough level, the break-ins stop, or perhaps only houses in seedy towns/cities get broken into, and if you take on sidequests to help clean up the town and minimize crime, break-ins cease and you get other rewards for helping the city. If implemented right, these things can be overall good, I think. It is just a matter of them being handled right. And in Skyrim, there can be things that can be seen as similar to this that can be frustrating to some. I was at a low level and three hard thugs (they were hard for my low level) came up to me to "teach me a lesson" for stealing. I hadn't started stealing yet at that point in the game. I probably accidently stole something. Anyway, I had to reload a save a few times before I killed the thugs. But it was kind of fun to have something like that in the game. I don't mind interesting and added challenges like this in the game, and games like this, if they are handled well. __________________

2012-01-10, 21:50	Link #2018
Urzu 7 Juanita/Kiteless Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New England Age: 40	They probably won't put something like that in TES VI, anyway. It seems like stuff from old school PC RPGs. I was reading up on TES Arena and how it was very hard and especially hard for RPG noobs. In the beginning of the game, you break out of a dungeon that you are a prisoner of. And it is really hard. Like, if you take too long getting out, you run into enemies that are higher level than you and kill you easily. One of the lead designers of Morrowind said he started at least 20 games in TES Arena and made it out of the dungeon only once (so I guess he had to start from the beginning after each time he died). Old school PC RPGs were frustratingly hard, I take it. __________________

2012-01-10, 22:00	Link #2019
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	It isn't useless for safe storage. It would be the game (GM) kicking you for not doing something you were suppose to be doing. Getting you back on the rails. And if it only happened once, that after you finish the quest....your expenisve house is secure for the rest of the game. Consider that it would probably happen eariler in the game when you had a less expensive house...depending on just how that works (Since I don't play this. I just remember how RGPs go under a pencil and paper GM. A proper GM doesn't pull the same trick twice.) It would even do for all that would be stolen is money and/or a specific quest item...that might be the trigger fot the quest in the first place. Or something from the house itself that isn't techincally something you were saving, but you might need...like say your bedding...or the door. Something silly, but you still need to go after him for a logical reason. __________________ Last edited by Ithekro; 2012-01-10 at 23:34. Reason: spelling (or using the correct words, even though the incorrect ones are properly spelled)

2012-01-12, 01:04	Link #2020
Urzu 7 Juanita/Kiteless Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New England Age: 40	I heard of something called Skyrim Boost. It makes the game run better. Does the latest version of this Skyrim Boost cause more bugs? I don't know if I'd want it if there are more bugs. Are some people using it and they would recommend using Skyrim Boost? How do you guys think my PC will run Skyrim with graphic enhancement mods? Radeon HD 5750 1 GB AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition (quad core, 3.2 GHz) 4 GB of 1600 RAM. __________________ Last edited by Urzu 7; 2012-01-12 at 01:44.