Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei - generic discussion thread (NO SPOILERS)

[Anh_Minh]

That was the cutest.

[cyth]

So a good number of episodes behind us, and I can honestly say I'm past the "let's glorify everything Tatsuya does." It's still ridiculous how bad that is, but I accept it as a part of life. The magic system and Tatsuya's potential, the power fantasy aspect of the series still intrigues me (because I'm a dumb, late 20's male consumer), also miko Miyuki was cute.

I guess I'm wondering how are the rest of the "haters" feeling about the series now?

[Ultragunner]

well, I guess the majority of them have moved to SAO II thread , you should see the "discussion" over there, I hate to admit it but Mahouka got by way better than its fellow

BTW, Doki has subbed the 4th Chibi ep, you can see it on their site

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by cyth

So a good number of episodes behind us, and I can honestly say I'm past the "let's glorify everything Tatsuya does." It's still ridiculous how bad that is, but I accept it as a part of life. The magic system and Tatsuya's potential, the power fantasy aspect of the series still intrigues me (because I'm a dumb, late 20's male consumer), also miko Miyuki was cute.

I guess I'm wondering how are the rest of the "haters" feeling about the series now?

I won't say I'm a hater of the series; I just haven't understood it yet. I'm patiently waiting for the anime to finally impress me before it ends and am feeling rather betrayed because of the hype. But I feel like the past 2 episodes were actually able to sustain my interest better than the previous ones. Though that's not necessarily saying a lot.

However there are things that I can respect about the anime/franchise:

*the magic system: as an avid fan of the Toaru Series, I respect fantasy series that take the time to detail the framework of their supernatural powers, analyze and construct them accordingly and make the rules that govern them the central determinant in how battles play out. That aspect hasn't necessarily adapted well into the anime. In hindsight, I don't remember it being done well in Index either so maybe its just an inescapable attribute of these kinds of LN series. It would probably need Hyouka levels of background animation to be effective at explaining things for the anime medium.

*non-harem setting: a breath of fresh air in sea of harem LN series with a bland generic MC. Reflecting this we have a male:female protagonist ratio better than 1:{everyone else}; praise-worthy considering the medium it came from. It has other problems though...

*soundtrack: sometimes its forgettable but other times, its just a strange combination of techno music. It certainly stops things from getting completely stale in the anime.

I really wish I had other things to praise about the anime but sadly I just don't feel that enthusiastic about it; or at least not as enthusiastic as I feel I should be, considering the parallels I can draw between this series and the Toaru Series.

Things I'm not too hot about:

*Miyuki and the entire brocon thing: Even though it isn't a straight up harem series, Mahouka couldn't escape the little sister trope and instead put it right at the front. Maybe if Miyuki was a better character it would offset this but alas, I don't think I'll ever like her; even if I read the LNs.

*MC being an emotionless yet praised gary-stu despite being labelled as a "Rettousei"......please hear me out before bashing : I know that there is an in-story reason for him being emotionless. I know that there are people who would strongly disagree with me calling him a gary-stu; also I despise using the term in the first place and concede that it isn't automatically a good or bad thing if a character is one. I also know why he is a Rettousei. What I don't like is that these 3 ideas exist simultaneously; in-story reasons or not.

TL;DR…

elaboration

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*my major personal complaint as far as the anime is concerned: In the ep14 thread I made a rather rantworthy statement:

Originally Posted by me

why does it feel like every time someone opens their mouth to talk they are deliberately trying to bore me?

I was completely serious when asked this and I think I figured out why I feel that way. Its because everyone, I mean everyone, speaks with such an extremely formal manner. It may be the voice actors or the script as well but if everyone speaks so formally, none of them end up appealing. Tatsuya is supposed to be the only emotionless one here yet I feel that everyone comes off bland. Of course not everyone speaks formally all the time. But when people stop doing so, I immediately start to like the character. By this regard, I like Erika, Leo and Azusa. Though Erika and Leo have different problems in my eyes that I won't go into here.

^
This is how I currently feel. Despite what I've said, I'll finish watching the anime because I WANT to like it. I want it to interest me enough to dive into the LNs. But nearly two thirds into the season and I still don't know what the show's main draw is. Index's was "a story when Science and Magic crossed paths." SAO's was "if you die in the game, you die in real life" (at least for the first half). What about Mahouka? I hope to reach a personal answer to this by the end of the anime.

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

well, I guess the majority of them have moved to SAO II thread , you should see the "discussion" over there, I hate to admit it but Mahouka got by way better than its fellow

I know right. SAOII hasn't really committed any major sin yet either. I guess Mahouka had the benefit of not being a sequel to a popular anime series which also was fun to bash.

[karice67]

Thanks for sharing such a long discussion about the series. I agree that the music is one of its draws - it's actually grown on me, although it still feels below what I've come to expect from Iwasaki Taku.

I do find this interesting though, it being the major criticism that the show and Tatsuya have attracted since the beginning:

Originally Posted by OH&S

...but I thought the premise of the show was that he was weaker in some way than the other students. Yet he effortlessly defeats all of his opponents; for goodness sake at least struggle a bit.

Although Tatsuya is weaker in some ways than others (and this has been shown in the show), that's not what the premise of the show seems to be to me at all...

Rather than "is weaker," isn't it more fruitful to consider it like this?

"Tatsuya is meant to be weaker than the other students. But look at all the things he can do: there is no way that this is true! What the heck does it mean -- that contradiction between his measured magical ability and his actual skills at applying magic?"

[Verisimilitude]

Originally Posted by karice67

Thanks for sharing such a long discussion about the series. I agree that the music is one of its draws - it's actually grown on me, although it still feels below what I've come to expect from Iwasaki Taku.

I do find this interesting though, it being the major criticism that the show and Tatsuya have attracted since the beginning:



Although Tatsuya is weaker in some ways than others (and this has been shown in the show), that's not what the premise of the show seems to be to me at all...

Rather than "is weaker," isn't it more fruitful to consider it like this?

"Tatsuya is meant to be weaker than the other students. But look at all the things he can do: there is no way that this is true! What the heck does it mean -- that contradiction between his measured magical ability and his actual skills at applying magic?"

I agree. To me, Tatsuya being an "Irregular" doesn't mean that he's weak; he's an irregular because he's an irregularity in the system. In fact, I suspect that's one of the reasons why Tatsuya was crafted to be so powerful/OP (depending on your opinion); to show how ridiculous the current system on how a magician is evaluated when it applies to him. Currently, despite his combat abilities, he's stuck being a Course 2 student because he can't really use most magics effectively; but the ones he can he does it well. His friends (Erika and Leo for example) are also like that; of course, the difference being that Tatsuya can frigging nuke people.

Another thing to consider is his position in his family. Him and Miyuki are part of the Ten Master Clans, making them essentially magical aristocracy/royalty as far as the Japanese magician community is concerned (If Tatsuya was actually able to use his real surname, I'd doubt any of those Course 1 students would dare mock him to his face. ) But yet we can see the obvious inequality in their treatment. His aunt even tells the servant how he can't betray the family if he's Miyuki's guardian. So, why is someone like Tatsuya treated like crap even among his own family to the point where they're worried about him betraying the clan, which theoretically should be more understanding of his situation vis a vis his treatment in magical society?

These are but just some of the questions to consider.......

[fujin of shadows]

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

well, I guess the majority of them have moved to SAO II thread , you should see the "discussion" over there, I hate to admit it but Mahouka got by way better than its fellow

BTW, Doki has subbed the 4th Chibi ep, you can see it on their site

Can you give me the website?

[Ultragunner]

^ it's "Doki Fansub", you can google it, I'm not too sure if I can post the link here though

[OH&S]

TL;DR…

quotes

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It certainly becomes easier to reconcile that contradiction in my head if you think of it that way. But despite the title containing 'irregular', rettousei actually means poor student. I can't think of it any other way.

Even if I open myself up to that line of thinking, I still can't get past the fact that he has such a large variety of skills so early in the story. He wins his fights or resolves his conflicts so effortlessly that I can't be engaged by the situation. There isn't a sense of tension in this show; no challenge or difficult problem to solve. At least not yet anyway.

This is why I'm eagerly awaiting the clash with the Crimson Prince and Cardinal George. I want to see how Tatsuya would act when he is actually challenged. The only thing that could bring this scenario down is the fact that they are both going to be handicapped in what they are allowed to use. For whatever reason they are not allowed to use their full capabilities and that is annoyingly similar to the shonen trope of characters wearing seals for their power.

So yeah. Far too capable, far too early in the series. And then on top of that being labelled a rettousei which ends up being meaningless in battle. I can only compare this to Index's MC Kamijou. He is labelled a powerless Level 0 but that label still carries meaning in his battles. There are things that only he can do in his position and the label that he is given defines it and any advantages and disadvantages he has.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by OH&S

But despite the title containing 'irregular', rettousei actually means poor student. I can't think of it any other way.

True, it's actually quite difficult to turn around and question the assumptions on which one's worldview is based. That's the very problem that Hattori and Morisaki are confronting in the show:

' "Rettousei" means poor student, so how can that guy be so powerful? Hasn't he been judged to be bad at magic from an objective point of view? '

Something to ponder: are those judgements really 'objective'? What assumptions underlie them?

Originally Posted by OH&S

Even if I open myself up to that line of thinking, I still can't get past the fact that he has such a large variety of skills so early in the story. He wins his fights or resolves his conflicts so effortlessly that I can't be engaged by the situation. There isn't a sense of tension in this show; no challenge or difficult problem to solve. At least not yet anyway.

At the end of the day, this is what everyone who has problems with Tatsuya can't reconcile, because we're so used to stories of people who, whilst good at what they do, come up against obstacles that they have to work hard to overcome.

Personally, though, I think the obstacles confronting Tatsuya have been represented in the show. The problem is that they're not the kinds of obstacles that viewers usually pick out (i.e. rivals and the like), they're another kind of obstacle...

[OH&S]

^
I don't really disagree with anything you have said. What you have said is perfectly reasonable. I can clearly see that there are societal problems afoot. But wasn't that notion dealt with in the Enrollment Arc, at least in regards to the immediate main characters rather than the school and society as a whole? Tatsuya has already proven the whole thing to be rubbish in his short 'fight with Hattori. Tatsuya's classmates don't seem to be bothered by it now either. They have accepted that it is rubbish and doesn't actually mean anything in a battle. He is also surrounded by people that either agree with this viewpoint or are starting to come to the same realizations as the others.

But does the series keep focusing on this issue? Are these societal problems the obstacles that you are hinting at that Tatsuya faces?

[Ultragunner]

Originally Posted by OH&S

^
I don't really disagree with anything you have said. What you have said is perfectly reasonable. I can clearly see that there are societal problems afoot. But wasn't that notion dealt with in the Enrollment Arc, at least in regards to the immediate main characters rather than the school and society as a whole? Tatsuya has already proven the whole thing to be rubbish in his short 'fight with Hattori. Tatsuya's classmates don't seem to be bothered by it now either. They have accepted that it is rubbish and doesn't actually mean anything in a battle. He is also surrounded by people that either agree with this viewpoint or are starting to come to the same realizations as the others.

But does the series keep focusing on this issue? Are these societal problems the obstacles that you are hinting at that Tatsuya faces?

^ yes, what really made the series so popular to begin with are the social structures and conflicts. However, unfortunately, the anime has failed to elaborate those.

Sorry for the digression to the LN. , but you must have noticed now that despite all the talents and OP abilities our MC possesses, he is forced to stay low...until now

The system is not really "rubbish", it has assessed the abilities of magician quite accurately, the top students like Mari, Mayumi or Katsuto are examples of that, it's just the system is not perfect (well, nothing is perfect, especially when it comes to human, don't you think? ).

Also, the "fight" with Hattori was actually a bit unfair for the poor guy, as it wasn't a magic duel in common sense, not to mention Tatsuya used a specialized and high-end specs CAD. In addition, our characters are going to highschool to study magic, not to and soldier training facility so "battle" really does not mean much in this environment.

What truly "rubbish" is how many people are stuck up to those values, like many of the Course 1 Students. But isn't this also true in real life? I mean grades in school sometimes do not mean anything when it comes to real life work.

And you are right about Tatsuya and his friends (Leo and Erika) are not bothered by the whole system, because they don't need to. Erika's family specialises in swordmanship, while Leo intends to join the Mobile Corps which requires physical abilities more than pure magic prowess. Tatsuya, on the other hand, is great with CAD so he focuses on that, and if he seriously needs to kick some asses, he will, just not with the "conventional way of magic".

Well, all in all, this series isn't about a guy who is trying to go up the ladder or to change any kind of system. It is about an "irregular" or "seemingly poor-performing" student gets through the troubles thrown at him

[OH&S]

^
I'm assuming that the well developed magic system was a bonus then?

But I concur. If the societal issues are main part of the draw then I don't feel the anime has given it justice. And rubbish was too strong a word. The system just needs to take other factors into account to more accurately classify some of its neglected students.

Either way, I'll ponder on this as I continue to watch the anime. I might even give it a rewatch afterwards. No promises though...

[karice67]

Originally Posted by OH&S

^
I don't really disagree with anything you have said. What you have said is perfectly reasonable. I can clearly see that there are societal problems afoot. But wasn't that notion dealt with in the Enrollment Arc, at least in regards to the immediate main characters rather than the school and society as a whole? Tatsuya has already proven the whole thing to be rubbish in his short 'fight with Hattori. Tatsuya's classmates don't seem to be bothered by it now either. They have accepted that it is rubbish and doesn't actually mean anything in a battle. He is also surrounded by people that either agree with this viewpoint or are starting to come to the same realizations as the others.

But does the series keep focusing on this issue? Are these societal problems the obstacles that you are hinting at that Tatsuya faces?

Those are some of the obstacles (the other group of obstacles I see being associated with the Yotsuba/Maya, which I do concur has been touched on only occasionally...).

But even just looking at those 'societal' obstacles (the way I'd put it is 'institutionally-based obstacles'), I don't think they've been forgotten - they've shown up at least two-three times in the 9 Schools Competition so far...

And this has me questioning another criticism about the Enrolment arc, which was that these rather serious issues were given very superficial treatment, what with the 'solutions' that were given in episodes 6 and 7. But given what we've seen so far in the 9 Schools Competition arc, specifically,

• The reactions to Mayumi et al recommending Tatsuya for the engineer's team
• The fact that student body seating during assemblies is still divided according to whether one is a Bloom or a Weed
• Hattori and Kirihara's conversation in episode 10
• Kudou's speech in episode 10 about the important thing being 'how one uses magic' rather than 'how powerful the magic is', and
• Jumonji lecturing Tatsuya in episode 14

It sure doesn't look to me like the issue has been forgotten at all...

[OH&S]

^
Certainly not forgotten. I guess what it comes down to is how much weight each anime viewer gives to those scenes. I certainly remember all of the scenes but I didn't personally give them too much importance as I felt the Enrolment Arc addressed the plight. Certainly it is a part of Mahouka's world that won't completely disappear in the short to medium term but should I keep thinking about it as an overall theme while continuing the series?

[karice67]

^
At this point, it appears to me to be a major overarching theme, one that the series has been developing through each of its two arcs thus far. Will it continue on into the next arc (I assume we'll get one based on the episode count of the first arc, even though this arch has already gone past that)? If so, then I'd say that it'd be cemented as a major overarching theme of the entire story, which we won't get to see because there are already too many LNs for a 2-cour series.

But whether you keep paying attention to it is up to you, really. Do you want to consider more extensively the questions that it seems to be raising, which involves, amongst other things, recognising that what Mahouka has been saying about inequality goes deeper than the black and white dichotomy that quite a few commentators had reduced it to? That there are various shades of gray to the issues being presented?

Personally, I remember all those scenes because I like considering political questions about equality and the like. Basically, I pay attention to it because that's what I find most interesting about Mahouka...but it's not everyone's cup of tea. And I'll be honest -- the frankly average production values don't really help. *shrugs*

[bietchie11]

^ Katsuto did not lecture Tatsuya. To sump up what he said:

"Your argument sounds convincing. I can't argue with you.
But honestly, i simply don't give a fuck.
I command, you obey. Period.
If anything happens, i will take the responsibility."

*Tatsuya ears: target acquired*

Tatsuya: " You will take the responsibility? Ok, alright. As long as i don't get blamed, it's not hurt if i screw around a bit i guess."

[kagato3]

A big important thing that has been said in passing is there are factions that are requireing Tatsuya to keep a low profile. Miyuki has already stated that with his talent he could already be in university and she feels he is forced tobe in school with her. He truly is frustrated he can't use non combat magic very well. And really being good at combat isn't very helpful to obtaining his goals which for the life of me I can't remember if they cut from his conversation with Mibu. Sadly the series isn't well suited to non novel form

[XFire]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

^ Katsuto did not lecture Tatsuya. To sump up what he said:

"Your argument sounds convincing. I can't argue with you.
But honestly, i simply don't give a fuck.
I command, you obey. Period.
If anything happens, i will take the responsibility."

*Tatsuya ears: target acquired*

Tatsuya: " You will take the responsibility? Ok, alright. As long as i don't get blamed, it's not hurt if i screw around a bit i guess."

Tatsuya: *Laughs maniacally*

Leaders: *Scared/confused/concerned looks*

Tatsuya: *coughs*

[~Yami~]

to be honest, I'm very annoyed with the lack of development of Miyuki's character....

I'm pretty sure that there are many people that wonders why Miyuki become main girl because she is pictured as boring character (unlike Saegusa, Erika, Honoka, Shizuku, or even Mizuki)

the other thing is how they pictured Honoka and Shizuku in different group with "Weed" groups. To be honest, I prefer "Weed" team to "Bloom" team. I hoped in the future, Bloom and Weed could hang out together more often