2012-03-03, 12:06 | Link #101 |
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that line of thinking is fine if the situation turns out ok in you favor. i am talking about the fact that if you look at these events in a more realistic p.o.v. you have to admit luck plays a big factor. of course luck in the naruto world is called will of fire.
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2012-03-03, 12:35 | Link #102 | ||
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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I think Kakashi's guidance could only go so far. He would urge Sasuke to give up vengeance on Itachi -- not postpone it until he was better trained, not move it down on his 'things-to-do' list. This meant Sasuke having no intentions of ever going after Itachi unless it was under Konoha's direction. Even if he got the opportunity, it wouldn't be the personal revenge he desired. This is something I don't think Sasuke could commit to. Even if Kakashi had taken him under his wing right after the massacre and treat him like a son, the moment Sasuke got wind of Itachi ever being around, he would see red and do something reckless. Anyways, I agree with you. What Itachi did was definitely the exact opposite of how you turn someone into hero. I think he had just become committed to playing the role of villain. He believe it was better for Konoha if everyone believe he was a psychopath rather than learning the ugly truth about the Uchiha. And he believe it was better to keep Sasuke's hatred focused on himself rather than just allow Sasuke learning to deal with it and find strength his own way. I'm not sure there if there was any real way for Itachi ensuring Sasuke followed the right path after he murdered their family. Though certainly, he only made things worse pushing him towards hatred. Quote:
Sasuke doesn't literally believe they are laughing behind his back. He believes the peace and prosperity Konoha enjoys--which allows them all to smile and laugh--is all thanks to the death of his people. Technically, he's correct. Though most of Konoha's people not aware or responsible.
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2012-03-03, 14:57 | Link #103 | ||
ANIUE!111
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2012-03-03, 15:12 | Link #104 | |||||
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2012-03-03, 15:20 | Link #105 | |
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If you were Kakashi and one of your students at age of 12 said that the goal of his life is to kill his brother then you would be worried about him. But a few days after your sensei/nakama/teammate died you would also say lets go and get revenge, it surely is an emotional decision, but not lifelong obsession. The problem is that nobody experienced what Sasuke has, so Kakashi can say "wise" words, but he just can't understand what it is to be in Sasuke's situation. And Kakashi had his crazy stuff too when he was young, that's what we have seen in the kakashi gaiden. He was deeply affected by how his father died, in a negative way, and that's not nearly as bad to what Sasuke has gone through. Then he got his friend Obito to make a real hero of him, instead of some fighting machine that follows rules. A fighting machine that follows rules doesn't exist anyway, at some point Kakashi would have become a missing ninja, like Kisame who at some point snapped, or many others. |
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2012-03-03, 21:41 | Link #106 | |
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But I now see Sasuke looking at Naruto and saying: Spoiler for "MW2:
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2012-03-03, 22:45 | Link #107 | |
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Had he made even stronger, deeper bonds with Naruto, Sakura and other rookies, I beleive it would be quite clear to him that not everyone would deserve to be punished for what transpired, and he would likely focus his need for justice on those who do. And by extension, their voices of reason and opinions would have also probably held more weight. I'm sure Naruto and Sakura at the very least would be more than willing to help him go about seeking justice in a more appropriate manner. As I said earlier, had Sasuke continued going on the path he was on, I honestly believe he would be very different considering the social "coloring" (to use Itachi's metaphor) he'd experience with team-7. Back then, Sasuke was willing to sacrifice his life for Naruto/team-7 on more than one occasion, so I believe spending years with them after that point --instead of years with Orochimaru and wallowing in hatred, resentment, and bitterness-- would have conditioned him to have different moral standards. In a nutshell, considering all his experiences thus far, it should be clear that his hatred was nurtured the most, so that is what has manifested itself in his character the most. You get out what you put in :/ |
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2012-03-03, 23:12 | Link #108 |
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I don't know how different Sasuke would have really been. If he had learned the truth independent of Itachi and Tobi, I could still see him coming to the conclusion that all those that benefited from his clans destruction are with fault. It's still an extreme stance, but it boils down to the basic fact that the peace of the village, the peace of the general populace, is dependent on the death of the Uchiha clan. This is entirely unacceptable, and despite the no direct involvement, the general populace still indirectly benefit from the Uchiha clans segregation and eventual destruction.
No matter who your friends are, that is a tough pill to swallow. And while I agree that hsi hate was "nurtured", the underlining problem is still evident and quite powerful. |
2012-03-04, 00:20 | Link #109 | |
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I'm not saying Sasuke would be a knight in shining white armor, I actually still believe he'd be --at least compared to Naruto and Sakura-- the darker shade of a hero as he always was, but far from the pitch black color he seems to be now. I also believe he'd still be after those directly responsible, even tempted to kill them (and perahps being talked out of it), but I seriously doubt he would be as irrational as he is acting now, wanting to kill everyone. I think the strong relationships he was on the way of forming would go a long way in helping him be more rational and see that even though they did gain peace from the Uchiha's massacre, they still had nothing to do with it. Again, he was willing to sacrifice himself for Naruto/team-7 on more than one occcasion, so I doubt that spending years with them after that, he'd be willing to slaughter all his friends and other villagers upon hearing the horrible truth. Best case senario, he would have formed an even stronger bond with Naruto (since Naruto would have unquestionably been by his side through this) and they would have vowed to change the village(and perhaps later the ninja system) together, when one of them would become strong enough, and come into an appropriate position to do so. Worse case senario, he would have probably fallen to the level of darkness he was in right after fighting Orochimaru, where he was essentially an anti-hero, but didn't believe in killing innocent people, imho. I think it would have been pretty cool to see them form an elite group the way Yahiko and Nagato did. |
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2012-03-04, 02:14 | Link #110 | |||
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2012-03-04, 22:25 | Link #111 | |
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Itachi was meant to be a good guy from the start, that's why Sasuke made a cryptic reference to the fact that Itachi was crying after the massacre as soon as chapter 7. It was just very badly written from then on.
The Senju on the other hand are probably an afterthought. And if they're not, they were handled even worse than Itachi's "tough love" for Sasuke. Quote:
Being a woman isn't an handicap because of any physical capacities or lack there of, it's an handicap because the author feels like it should be, period. Your fix is even more fallacious than the original quote though. |
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2012-03-05, 07:46 | Link #112 |
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I reread that chapter and I see what you're saying. I suppose I agree that it's open ended on purpose, meaning that it could refer to either sasuke or itachi crying at that time. but after tobi's revelation to sasuke about what happened, sasuke remembers itachi crying and says that he forgot about it until tobi's story. so going by that, it seems like sasuke was talking about himself crying in chapter 7. so if that hint is nullified, I don't think there is another until the deidara and sasori arc when itachi smiles after naruto defeats his clone which is so far down into the plot that itachi being good is clearly a retcon
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2012-03-05, 08:52 | Link #113 |
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^It's not a retcon. A retcon only occurs when previous facts and information are ignored in place of new facts and information. We knew nothing of the massacre beyond Sasuke's personal experience, so, of course, any new information only served to expand on the incident, not simply rewrite what we already knew (which wasn't much).
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2012-03-05, 08:56 | Link #114 |
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First, you don't "nullify" hints.
Secondly, no Sasuke wasn't talking about himself, he was blatantly talking about Itachi. And he hadn't forgotten the sight of Itachi crying (though he tried to), he thought he had been mistaken because he couldn't accept it. There were many others hints about it which is why the theory of Itachi being secretly a good guy started as soon as his introduction. As I said it's just that the author made a mess of it which make many of Itachi's actions completely incoherent in insight. |
2012-03-05, 10:42 | Link #115 | ||
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i agree that if only sasuke was nurtured with love and encouragement from his peers instead of hate, he wouldn't be in this situation. but i also believe that it was also his choice. if he had only allowed himself to believe that he could move on and make something of himself without letting his dark past cloud his future, he wouldn't turn out to be such a vengeful little prick. but he gave in to his anger and it brought him to this dark path he's in now.
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2012-03-05, 12:55 | Link #116 | |||
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sasuke was not blatantly talking about itachi. he was saying random words that could have related to anything. you said yourself that it was a 'cryptic reference' and sasuke was certainly crying that day. you say there are many other hints, but I don't really see any. do you have examples? (in the first series I mean) I also don't see how it's incoherent. it was a bad/evil/unreasonable decision to wipe out the uchiha, but political leaders make bad decisions all the time. it makes sense that itachi would take the blame so that the uchiha wouldn't be known poorly in history. it makes sense he would want the village and sasuke to have a villain to go after instead of finding out the truth. he made himself a diversion and continued to protect the village while in akatsuki Quote:
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it just means that the interpretation was changed. the whole first series we were led to believe that itachi was evil by the facts presented. no facts get ignored in place of new facts. |
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2012-03-05, 20:51 | Link #117 | ||||
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And you have dodged the actual point I made to answer with this, Sasuke hadn't forgotten, he said he thought he had been mistaken because he couldn't make sense of it. Quote:
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It'd be fine had he intended to create an half crazed sociopath hellbent on but revenge at any cost but claiming he intended to make Sasuke a hero by torturing him and telling him to kill his best friend? Yeah right. |
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2012-03-05, 21:35 | Link #118 |
ANIUE!111
Join Date: Oct 2006
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I think it's worth noting that this is the first time we're getting confirmation of Itachi's intentions from him directly rather than from the mouth of a known chronic liar. So far, Itachi has said nothing of his actions being intended to make Sasuke into a hero or weighing Sasuke's life more heavily than the village. As of right now, based on what Itachi has said right here, he spared Sasuke primarily because he wanted an avenger, not a hero and not because he just loved his little brother so much. I'm interested in seeing where this conversation goes, since it may make certain inconsistencies line up better. If Itachi in fact doesn't value Sasuke over the village, for example, it makes his rather harsh backup plan of Geassing him into submission a little more understandable.
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2012-03-06, 02:21 | Link #119 | |||||
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2012-03-06, 03:31 | Link #120 | |
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And there are countless other examples, for example Naruto's father deciding the way he did. Then there's also another reason why Itachi did this, but it's kinda inconsistent with this chapter where Itachi is amazed that Sasuke can use susano. This other reason is simply that Itachi wanted Sasuke to become strong as him because he knew that after his death many people, including Danzou will try to kill Sasuke. For me the part of their (Itachi, Minato, even Tobi) behavior that seems to be the most stupid is their faith that these children will survive some crazy stuff. For example why is Itachi so sure Sasuke would survive his encounters with Orochimaru and Deidara, or survive Itachi's amaterasu and other attacks. Or Minato thinking that the masked man will not try to kidnap Naruto whereas he waited a long long time for the moment Kushina's seal became weak and had no problem getting to Kushina. And so on... |
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weekly spoiler discussion |
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