[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GreyZone]

^It was NEVER said that there was a knocking sound at all. Lambda insisting that a knocking sound happened is as credible as Beatrice saying that magic exists. So no, there would NOT be a logic error, because there was no error. The only possible error could be Shannon and Kanon appearing before Erika at the same time (unless you use Renall's "Kanon apparently hid behind Gohda"-excuse)

[Kealym]

At this point I'm willing to argue that the manga supports my "Kanon has a body just this once" idea. One of the boons of the manga has been visual clarification, and Kanon is in very plain sight during the scenes in question.i

[DokEnkephalin]

Ah, I'd made the connection before and after that Battler wasn't the detective, but missed it for that scene. Erika wasn't there to witness it, and it wasn't even validated contextually in Red.

[Renall]

Regarding the knock: Lambda always speaks in negatives when using red about the letter and knock. "Soandso didn't touch the letter" or "soandso didn't make the knocking sound by doing this or that." Negative statements remain true even if the thing they're discussing is a non-event. I can say "I wasn't at the store on Main Street today," even if I was on Main Street, if there isn't any store on Main Street.

If you reach from the reds the conclusion that no one could have placed the letter, it isn't a contradiction; it's a contraindication that the condition described could have been true in the first place.

The problem, I think, is in the translation. Lambda uses "the" as an article for the letter/knock in a few places, but I think it's clearly intended that she should be using "a" in all such instances. This is probably something that isn't like that in the original script, at least not as we'd understand it linguistically.

Originally Posted by Kealym

At this point I'm willing to argue that the manga supports my "Kanon has a body just this once" idea. One of the boons of the manga has been visual clarification, and Kanon is in very plain sight during the scenes in question.i

Here's the issue I have with that:

• Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
• Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
• In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.

The only way around this is to say Kanon was always a "person" but never an existent independent body. But that gets dangerously close to letting us say Kinzo is a "person" or "character" even though he's dead, because doesn't exist == doesn't exist. Someone else trying to perpetrate the appearance of his existence is philosophically indistinct from Yasu posing as Kanon to validate the appearance of his existence.

Plus, per the end of ep6, Kanon and Shannon aren't two people. And we can't give him a body but not personhood, because that's impossible (or at least cheating).

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by Renall

Negative statements remain true even if the thing they're discussing is a non-event. I can say "I wasn't at the store on Main Street today," even if I was on Main Street, if there isn't any store on Main Street.

Sort of; if there was a qualified witness to the knock, then LambdaDelta's negation of the qualifiers of that knock would still be a contextual verification of a knock. If you said you weren't at the store on Main Street today and then added that there is no Main Street store, that would affirm that Main Street exists today.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Renall

The problem, I think, is in the translation. Lambda uses "the" as an article for the letter/knock in a few places, but I think it's clearly intended that she should be using "a" in all such instances. This is probably something that isn't like that in the original script, at least not as we'd understand it linguistically.Here's the issue I have with that:

• Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
• Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
• In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.

The only way around this is to say Kanon was always a "person" but never an existent independent body. But that gets dangerously close to letting us say Kinzo is a "person" or "character" even though he's dead, because doesn't exist == doesn't exist. Someone else trying to perpetrate the appearance of his existence is philosophically indistinct from Yasu posing as Kanon to validate the appearance of his existence.

Plus, per the end of ep6, Kanon and Shannon aren't two people. And we can't give him a body but not personhood, because that's impossible (or at least cheating).

You can get by this by having "The number of people" be a variable (x) thats not been entirely defined. Its in a state of quantum superposition until its finally observed with an absolute red in part 6. This red causes a ripple that affects the previous episodes so that Kanon, as an individual person, could no longer be used in any of intended solutions. (Retrocausality)

Its one of the possible solutions if we try to apply quantum physics theories to umineko.

[AuraTwilight]

Counterpoint: That's stupid.

Elaboration: "X" and "X+1" aren't numbers. if Erika alters X in a meaningful sense that causes the Red to comment on it, but X is undefined and can change through different games without changing X, than Erika doesn't change X either, making the relevant red in question utterly meaningless.

Also, Reds are descriptive, not proscriptive. Your solution of retroactively negating Kanon-body as a solution means that Red statements can change reality. This simply is not the case.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Its not an issue of red changing reality, more like forcing it to take a shape. As long as you dont violate something and cause a logic error you can force reality to behave as what you are saying. Thats the whole point of EP6s scene with Battler and Erika in the room. As well as their confrontation in EP8. Saying a red is basically showing a part of the catbox for that particular episode.

Hell, I think you can attribute Erika's wild mood changes between episodes because of it. A world where she's the detective requires there to be 18 people in rokkenjima, by denying the possibility of such a word existing she's essentially wiped out of existence.

e-Double hell, it explains RK07s sudden change from Higurashi to Umineko when it comes to actually revealing everything in a story. It is thematically consistent with the story he was trying to tell us.

RK07 could have done a better job with the whole quantum physics element in the story if he tried to further expand on it. Anyone interested in story that does use it to greater effect should read Murasaki no Qualia. I have a feeling that lots of people that like Umineko would like reading something like this.

[GreyZone]

We could also assume that Shkanon was there only as 1 person but at some points used the "voice" of the other servant and by that creating the illusion that both are there. Also note how Shkanon ONLY appeard as two before Erika, when there was a larger crowd. The dining hall had 18 people and later on at the door to the study there were some other people as well.

That means in the end it would be the direction of "Kanon hid behind Gohda" after all... But this could be what Lambdadelta ment, when she told Battler that Beato was going "too easy on him". Such tricks were possible in Beatrice's games as well, but they would make the games a lot harder to solve.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Counterpoint: That's stupid.

Elaboration: "X" and "X+1" aren't numbers. if Erika alters X in a meaningful sense that causes the Red to comment on it, but X is undefined and can change through different games without changing X, than Erika doesn't change X either, making the relevant red in question utterly meaningless.

Also, Reds are descriptive, not proscriptive. Your solution of retroactively negating Kanon-body as a solution means that Red statements can change reality. This simply is not the case.

A 19th person was denied in Red, thereby Furudo Erika can never be 18+1. Indeed, the red statement that Erika "increases it by 1" pretty much spells out that the true number wasn't 18 but 17

Erika represents a "fictional" 17th person. Whom I argue to be Kanon. Kanon never existed, at any point, at any one of the games. I'll argue that indeed, the Ushiromiya's recognized Kanon as a "person", but in reality Kanon never existed.

[GreyZone]

Furudo Erika existed. She was onboard a ship during the storm. It was in a TIP as far as I remember.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Furudo Erika existed. She was onboard a ship during the storm. It was in a TIP as far as I remember.

Not as the detective or a visitor in Rokkenjima.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Furudo Erika existed. She was onboard a ship during the storm. It was in a TIP as far as I remember.

Furudo Erika existed in the world of Humans at one point, before the fatal crash of her boat.

Supposing the Ushiromiya's were to find her, the only time any of the family members are depicted outside is during EP. 3 when the Cousins were on the beach(pre-storm). In all games, the family's depicted inside of either the mansion or the guest house during the storm.

[DokEnkephalin]

I take it the Red Truth can only assert things that are true in decohered consistent histories, not any of the values of the superposed state itself. So if the use of magic is reliant on an unknown quantity X from the fundamental level, then the presence of that quantity would appear in one of those superposed states. The Red Truth can't assert the value of either, mystery or fantasy, but only the constants of their effects.

I wouldn't call this a quantum physics element, it relies pretty much on a misunderstanding of how quantum physics works. But it is interesting as a plot and logical premise, makes a far more complex thought experiment than Schroedinger's Cat.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

A 19th person was denied in Red, thereby Furudo Erika can never be 18+1. Indeed, the red statement that Erika "increases it by 1" pretty much spells out that the true number wasn't 18 but 17

Erika represents a "fictional" 17th person. Whom I argue to be Kanon. Kanon never existed, at any point, at any one of the games. I'll argue that indeed, the Ushiromiya's recognized Kanon as a "person", but in reality Kanon never existed.

Even if Erika joins them, there are only 17 people. Therefore, Erika could feasibly be on the island without contradicting any reds at all.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Furudo Erika existed in the world of Humans at one point, before the fatal crash of her boat.

Supposing the Ushiromiya's were to find her, the only time any of the family members are depicted outside is during EP. 3 when the Cousins were on the beach(pre-storm). In all games, the family's depicted inside of either the mansion or the guest house during the storm.

The storm can have effects on the sea long before you notice anything on land.

Also Erika's involvment in prime is not being discussed here. But at least for EP5, it is clearly stated that she was added to the game board. The game is possible with her, but also without her. If you want to have a video game equivalent, you could consider her a "DLC". (someone should create advertisement for the "Erika DLC" )

As for her being a human:
Furudo Erika was proclaimed to be the detective. The only lifeforms involved in the gameboards are humans. Anything that is "not a lifeform", like her being a "ghost" or a "ghoul", would be violating Knox's 2nd.

In other words: As long as Erika is on the gameboard, she is a valid participant and is just like everyone else considered to be a "human", "body" and "person" by the rules.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

I take it the Red Truth can only assert things that are true in decohered consistent histories, not any of the values of the superposed state itself. So if the use of magic is reliant on an unknown quantity X from the fundamental level, then the presence of that quantity would appear in one of those superposed states. The Red Truth can't assert the value of either, mystery or fantasy, but only the constants of their effects.

I wouldn't call this a quantum physics element, it relies pretty much on a misunderstanding of how quantum physics works. But it is interesting as a plot and logical premise, makes a far more complex thought experiment than Schroedinger's Cat.

Its use in the story could be from a flawed interpretation of it, and its been an issue with some of the though experiments he's invoked. But as I see in the story, the red functions as a way to collapse the wave function rather than revealing something that already collapsed.

I think the way I see it is that the story isn't fully written and the game master can alter parts of it on the go and the red is used for that. Versus the story is already written and the red is simply showing whats already set in stone.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Its use in the story could be from a flawed interpretation of it, and its been an issue with some of the though experiments he's invoked. But as I see in the story, the red functions as a way to collapse the wave function rather than revealing something that already collapsed.

I think the way I see it is that the story isn't fully written and the game master can alter parts of it on the go and the red is used for that. Versus the story is already written and the red is simply showing whats already set in stone.

While that may be the case for a given Fragment author, we happen to know that Beatrice (and, if Battler truly does undertstand everything, Battler) knows the real origins of Kanon. That means they can only possibly use such a "quantum trick" (for lack of a better term) if they're willing to willfully disregard what they know to be true. Why would they do that? Just in case?

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Renall

While that may be the case for a given Fragment author, we happen to know that Beatrice (and, if Battler truly does undertstand everything, Battler) knows the real origins of Kanon. That means they can only possibly use such a "quantum trick" (for lack of a better term) if they're willing to willfully disregard what they know to be true. Why would they do that? Just in case?

Because they want it to be true? Its the reason why these reds are sometimes so hard for Beatrice to say. She genuinely wants Shanon, Kanon and herself to be independent people, by using the last reds she effectively nulls any possibility of that happening.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Its use in the story could be from a flawed interpretation of it, and its been an issue with some of the though experiments he's invoked. But as I see in the story, the red functions as a way to collapse the wave function rather than revealing something that already collapsed.

I think the way I see it is that the story isn't fully written and the game master can alter parts of it on the go and the red is used for that. Versus the story is already written and the red is simply showing whats already set in stone.

From Virgilia's 'all truths' explanation, the way multiple worlds are built from Fragments, and Beato's Golden assertion of magic, all coherent histories still persist after the wave is collapsed, it's just that the observer only experiences one. They can all be viewed from Meta, but the Game Master gets to control which one to display to the opponent. Skirmishes in the game are the conflict that arises between observers at the instance of decoherence, and the resolution of those conflicts determine which coherent history they will have to follow.

So Red Truth doesn't 'create' the reality, but it can define between contestants which reality will be shared.