Valvrave the Liberator - Character Discussion - Sashinami Shouko

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

This equates to Saki giving her virginity to Haruto and was still trying to support him until her capture, but no one hates Haruto for being so oblivious to her care.

I still do, but he has paid what I believe to be an equivalent price for his mistakes: seeing Kyuuma die, so no point in going any further with the hate since I also had a friend who was killed when I was the same age as Haruto.
I still find him to be an idiot tho. :/

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

This equates to Saki giving her virginity to Haruto and was still trying to support him until her capture, but no one hates Haruto for being so oblivious to her care.

haruto tried to take responsibility for that but saki refused remember, then their relationship returned to before that incident and it is no where near to how badly shoko betrayed him this episode also what finalfury said in that he's paid for his mistakes

[KleenexGhost]

SkullFaerie Thanks

Whatever they have planned for Shoko will hopefully be worth it. I don't just mean another death but something more than that.

Have her live. Hell, even have her try to be the one to try and get the students to have faith in the pilots again since there will probably still be students that think of them as monsters.

[DevilHighDxD]

^These past 3 episode had L-elf, Saki and Haruto open their mouth and scream in extreme despair, Shoko need something worst than her father being killed and need to joined the rest of the MC in this trend .

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

^These past 3 episode had L-elf, Saki and Haruto open their mouth and scream in extreme despair, Shoko need something worst than her father being killed and need to joined the rest of the MC in this trend .

Burn her at the stake? No wait, she's gonna find out Ryuji gave the OK for the Valvrave project, then she'll get burned at the stake.

[kivredia]

Don't really understand how the scene between Saki and Haruto compares to that of Shouko in the last episode.

Haruto wasn't in conscious control of his actions, he didn't even remember what happened and only saw the aftermath. There was no active decision from his part, if it was Pino or just some basic instinct that took over is still not clear.

Shouko made the decision to not trust the pilots anymore and then sell them out to the enemy. Yes, she was clearly overwhelmed by the situations and her feelings which is understandable. So the first part about trust and lashing out at Haruto is understandable.

But after what has happened, how many times the pilots put their lifes on the line and her being the person who has the power over the state and the trust of the student body as well. She just goes and sells out their biggest military assets. I'd expect more from someone in her position even under the circumstances.

When all is said and done, she was the only one involved who could make a choice and see her orders followed. Her decision was utterly wrong.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

haruto tried to take responsibility for that but saki refused remember, then their relationship returned to before that incident and it is no where near to how badly shoko betrayed him this episode also what finalfury said in that he's paid for his mistakes

You mean when he projected his self punishment onto her, and basically was asking to have a unhappy marriage of repentance for himself and her as well?

I'm just pointing how much of a double standard this is. Then, how about Haruto himself? He made Shoko his primary reason for fighting (Shoko made him her sole pillar of support), yet he never told her what was going on. He thought for her, and assumed she couldn't handle it. Don't say this episode was proof she wouldn't have, because she basically found out about the kamitsuki in the worst possible way, and many factors lead to the subsequent decision she made. He fought for primarily fought for her and protected her, but when it was proven he didn't show the same amount of trust she did for him, Isn't that as much of a betrayal as the selling him out? It was his own consequence of keeping her in the dark, she found out the way she did, and reacted accordingly.

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

You mean when he projected his self punishment onto her, and basically was asking to have a unhappy marriage of repentance for himself and her as well?

I'm just pointing how much of a double standard this is. Then, how about Haruto himself? He made Shoko his primary reason for fighting (Shoko made him her sole pillar of support), yet he never told her what was going on. He thought for her, and assumed she couldn't handle it. Don't say this episode was proof she wouldn't have, because she basically found out about the kamitsuki in the worst possible way, and many factors lead to the subsequent decision she made. He fought for primarily fought for her and protected her, but when it was proven he didn't show the same amount of trust she did for him, Isn't that as much of a betrayal as the selling him out? It was his own consequence of keeping her in the dark, she found out the way she did, and reacted accordingly.

Worst way possible hmmm. Not likely.

Anyway, before you were equating an unconscious action/response to a conscious action. Haruto was unconsciously acting when he penetrated Saki while Shoko's decision was while she was still sober/conscious. If unconscious actions/responses were treated the same way as conscious actions/responses, then a lot of court cases and other issues would have different outcomes than they previously had.

Unconscious actions/responses =/= conscious actions/response.

The idea of blame is to chastize someone for a decision/action/response they made while remaining self aware. A select number of people do no blame people with mental disorders for their actions since they are aware that those people are in less control of their actions than a "normal" person.

Regardless of how mentally distraught Shoko was, she still was able to use her cognitive functions (aka think for x amount of seconds) to make a decision in response to the newly revealed information.

Haruto's Kamitsuki affliction can be considered to be similar to a mental disorder since his Id is in higher control of his body than both his ego and super ego during select times or in the presence of specific stimuli than a "normal" person.

TBF, I do not agree with the idea of double standards. :/
I think I blamed Haruto a good amount in this forum tho. :v

[Kurohane]

@kivredia and final fury
The point I was making with Saki is that it's obvious she cares for Haruto a great deal, yet he doesn't really notice it at all. Haruto cares for Shoko a great deal, yet she made that decision. Shoko has been put down the bash bin, because Haruto did so much for her, yet Haruto is oblivious to Saki's devotion to him, though she cares for him so much, and he isn't bashed as much or it's just not as much vocalized. Only a few people criticize him for it on here (myself included). My reasoning wasn't about the rape per see, but it's an example of how greatly Saki feels for him and still continued that support until her capture. My point was how she cares a great deal for him and he's oblivious to it all. Isn't that just as bad as betraying a person? That's why I called this a double standard.

[BadtheGuy]

Her relationship with Haruto was a joke since the beginning because of everything he hid from her. This is karma. It all came back to bite everyone in the ass. If only there were no secrets and deceit in the first place.

[kivredia]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

@kivredia and final fury
The point I was making with Saki is that it's obvious she cares for Haruto a great deal, yet he doesn't really notice it at all. Haruto cares for Shoko a great deal, yet she made that decision. Shoko has been put down the bash bin, because Haruto did so much for her, yet Haruto is oblivious to Saki's devotion to him, though she cares for him so much, and he isn't bashed as much or it's just not as much vocalized. Only a few people criticize him for it on here (myself included). My reasoning wasn't about the rape per see, but it's an example of how greatly Saki feels for him and still continued that support until her capture. My point was how she cares a great deal for him and he's oblivious to it all.

Okay, got that wrong. Well, we'll see how it all pans out. There's a good chance the ending will be "bad" anyway because there are only 3 eps left anyway. But that can include any kind of "resolution" for all the subplots including the romance or any kind of redemption.

I honestly hope for a surprise and a tone shift with everyone deciding that it's time to cut off the head of the snake no matter the cost. In that frame there might be enough room for each character to have some conclusion.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by BadtheGuy

Her relationship with Haruto was a joke since the beginning because of everything he hid from her. This is karma. It all came back to bite everyone in the ass. If only there were no secrets and deceit in the first place.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

@kivredia and final fury
The point I was making with Saki is that it's obvious she cares for Haruto a great deal, yet he doesn't really notice it at all. Haruto cares for Shoko a great deal, yet she made that decision. Shoko has been put down the bash bin, because Haruto did so much for her, yet Haruto is oblivious to Saki's devotion to him, though she cares for him so much, and he isn't bashed as much or it's just not as much vocalized. Only a few people criticize him for it on here (myself included). My reasoning wasn't about the rape per see, but it's an example of how greatly Saki feels for him and still continued that support until her capture. My point was how she cares a great deal for him and he's oblivious to it all. Isn't that just as bad as betraying a person? That's why I called this a double standard.

I definitely agree with you on that respect but considering that I believe I also criticized Haruto a lot, I do not feel that I am part of the double standard you mentioned. I know you didn't say or imply that I did but I just wanted to make it clear that I am not or hope I am not using a double standard with these two characters. That and the forums at the time of episode 10 season 1 were not safe to enter imo.
EDIT: Oh, one correction tho. He's not oblivious to her affection. Well, he's pretty dim-witted tho so maybe but still maybe not. He did have her on his mind tho at certain times which imo is something since someone named Amata couldn't even do that much.
He's just afraid of what he will do to her since her figure arouses him a lot.
Episode 1 Season 2 almost had him go beast mode at the sight of her cleavage lol. I can't really blame the hormone production during puberty tho. :x
He doesn't love her though and I think that's the main draw about this whole relationship of theirs.

[DevilHighDxD]

Being oblivious and selling out/betraying close allies is two different thing, Haruto is oblivious to any love related thing except for Shoko. I and countless others already bashed him hard enough for ignoring Saki while being so obsesses with Shoko. There no double standard other than just people trying to shift all the blames to Haruto. Shoko's betrayal caused Kyuuma's death and his Valvrave destruction, Haruto's oblivious didn't costed anyone life except my Saki's happiness.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

Being oblivious and selling out/betraying close allies is two different thing, Haruto is oblivious to any love related thing except for Shoko. I and countless others already bashed him hard enough for ignoring Saki while being so obsesses with Shoko. There no double standard other than just people trying to shift all the blames to Haruto. Shoko's betrayal caused Kyuuma's death and his Valvrave destruction, Haruto's oblivious didn't costed anyone life except my Saki's happiness.

Actually, I see it as Haruto's obliviousness led to Shoko making the decision that she did and I do think that all the lies of omission that happened, did eventually lead to this massacre. Shoko has blame sure, but so equally does Haruto.

[DevilHighDxD]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Actually, I see it as Haruto's obliviousness led to Shoko making the decision that she did and I do think that all the lies of omission that happened, did eventually lead to this massacre. Shoko has blame sure, but so equally does Haruto.

Never cared about Massacre of Module 77, Shoko crossed the line when she betrayed the Kamitsuki and resulted Kyuuma's death. Kyuuma's death is her fault alone. Had she not sell Haruto out, he won't go alone rescuing him, which won't caused his dead.

[Blizzard]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Actually, I see it as Haruto's obliviousness led to Shoko making the decision that she did and I do think that all the lies of omission that happened, did eventually lead to this massacre. Shoko has blame sure, but so equally does Haruto.

Massacre was unavoidable once the Council decided to get rid of them and telling outsiders like Arus about their bodies would've only pushed it forward to made things even worse before this. Even if Shoko knew she'd still commence with the conference since she wouldn't believe they'd go that far and can't think far and think positive. I mean if they could so much as imagine it, one of the pilots or the teacher would've spoken out.

This was honestly Cain level of whoops and they're all pretty bad when it comes to dealing with war crimes and still think inside the box. So no, even if she was knew as well, there was nothing more she could do or guess than anyone else. People much smarter, capable, experienced than her knew and no one saw this coming. But the betrayal at least might've been avoided.

But of course bad security and everything is still on her and knowing about the whole magius deal wouldn't have made her think about increase it since they're already supposed to be at maximum alert. *snort* Organizing a peace conference before your recon team are back from mission with new information to work on. If you weren't going to wait for them to make your move then why send them to begin with?

Heck, doing anything, especially of this scale, with all the brains of your team away is puuuure genius. Especially going ahead with it when your master strategist who pulled you through literally anything returns completely useless. She's still at school festival level only instead she'd gathering outsiders and their armies to talk about ~peace~ while thinking nothing could go wrong. Fun fun peace peace frieeeeendship~~

Ah! Sorry I got out of topic >.<

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Blizzard

Massacre was unavoidable once the Council decided to get rid of them and telling outsiders like Arus about their bodies would've only pushed it forward to made things even worse before this. Even if Shoko knew she'd still commence with the conference since she wouldn't believe they'd go that far and can't think far and think positive. I mean if they could so much as imagine it, one of the pilots or the teacher would've spoken out.

This was honestly Cain level of whoops and they're all pretty bad when it comes to dealing with war crimes and still think inside the box. So no, even if she was knew as well, there was nothing more she could do or guess than anyone else. People much smarter, capable, experienced than her knew and no one saw this coming. But the betrayal at least might've been avoided.

But of course bad security and everything is still on her and knowing about the whole magius deal wouldn't have made her think about increase it since they're already supposed to be at maximum alert. *snort* Organizing a peace conference before your recon team are back from mission with new information to work on. If you weren't going to wait for them to make your move then why send them to begin with?

Heck, doing anything, especially of this scale, with all the brains of your team away is puuuure genius. Especially going ahead with it when your master strategist who pulled you through literally anything returns completely useless. She's still at school festival level only instead she'd gathering outsiders and their armies to talk about ~peace~ while thinking nothing could go wrong. Fun fun peace peace frieeeeendship~~

Ah! Sorry I got out of topic >.<

But Cain did expect more resistance than he got, which means there must have been a why.

As you said, there were a lot or preparatory factors that could have protected the students. However, that would have only worked if L-elf was back to normal and could have organized it. The PR part was Shoko's department, the security was his. Since he wasn't there to do the job anymore, it really should have fallen to Haruto as leader of the pilots, but you know how that goes....

Shoko was out of her depth here, but I think she would have been more prepared and made more safety and back-up plans if she knew. Also, Haruto explanations are abysmal, with both Shoko and the ARUS. I refuse to not place some of the blame on him too.

[finalfury]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I refuse to not place some of the blame on him too.

And he watched Inuzuka die before his eyes saving him due to his foolish naivete getting him into that mess. That should be a fair price to pay for his mistakes. Or is not losing 10-20% of his military power and losing a close friend and fellow Valvrave pilot not enough for him to pay in order to atone for his foolishness? At this point, delegating blame to him becomes he paid for his actions with the elimination of one of his close allies.

Then again, I've blamed Haruto a lot and it's gone to the point where it's pretty much implied that if something happens, Haruto is at fault for a portion of it.

EDIT: He's lost 20-40% of his military fighting force as of now. L-elf is a key card needed otherwise he's done fighting and Sunrise should just axe the story or implement a "deus ex machina" in it.

[Twi]

ARUS pretty much set this up with Magius, they weren't going to listen one way or another. That being said, he needs to learn how to speak and think. The only thing that could have reasonably been avoided was the betrayal, but...well, no need to beat a dead horse.