Eden of the East - Episode 11 [END] Discussion / Poll

[izmosmolnar]

Thanks for enlightening me about the Avenue.

Well, I couldn't distinguish other hungarians 20-30 meter away from me, despite that we/they also have some unique characteristics among other Europeans.
Especially if I'd be just after a memory whipe. I mean let's imagine said scenario: *Erases his own memories* *notices girl across the street* "Oh, I don't even have a frickin clue who I am, but that girl is surely from the same country as I am! Even though I'm stark-naked, let's start a conversation with her by waving my revolver and ignoring the two cops between us!"

There are just far too many circumstancial evidence suggesting Saki and Akira's meeting wasn't a coincidence at the White House IMHO. I tend to believe he knew something about her prior to his memorywhipe, and she is the reason he was in the US.

[drobertbaker]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

As for the prince in a kingless land...

I think that all the concern we've seen in these threads about biblical accuracies and the fine points of Christian theology is totally up the stump, if you know what I mean.

I believe that these Japanese guys have about as much knowledge about Christianity and the Bible as I do about Shinto and it's ancient texts. In my experience, they like to use biblical mythology and especially its symbols, but they have no clue what it's about. See Chrno Crusade with the intrepid nuns battling the demons. (I can't believe Rosette died at the end! I still cry everytime I think about it... <sob>... )

I do like the Overman analogy. Again, I have my doubts about Japanese knowledge of Neitzsche, but you never know. In any case, IX certainly does represent the model of the Overman (and Zarathustra). It's a shame he has to achieve his freedom from ressentiment by wiping his memory.

[General_Asakura]

I have to say that this episode, no the entire series felt like a setup for the movie that is to come.

I liked it Though

[Dextro]

Ok Ok hold on just a minute! Did they mention "The Patriots System"?!?!? WTF!?!? Is this some sort of Metal Gear Solid anime and I wasn't aware of it? Is it a coincidence? A nod to Hideo Kojima's work?

All I know is that I stood flabbergasted at the screen when I saw *la-le-li-lo-lu* written on the subs, preety weird stuff...

[karumofin]

oh by the way, to those who think the taxi driver has relevance, in episode for the doctor guy says he was selected when riding a taxi... coincidence? i think not.

[MeoTwister5]

The Patriot System is likely referring to the Patriot missle defense system, who's function is to shoot down ICBMs with rapid targetting missles.

I do like the Overman analogy. Again, I have my doubts about Japanese knowledge of Neitzsche, but you never know. In any case, IX certainly does represent the model of the Overman (and Zarathustra). It's a shame he has to achieve his freedom from ressentiment by wiping his memory.

I don't think ressentiment really applies here, it's not like he has resentment of a more powerful social class. Nietszche termed his ressentiment as an overpowering jealousy of a the more powerful social classes who are more or less the Haves and those with ressentiment the Have Nots in his "A Genealogy of Morals". If anything, call Akira a wavering Overman who couldn't truly handle the pressure of his desired role and status because he was still affected by more abstract terms such as friendship, whereas a true Overman is not bound by such things.

I think this crystalizes the essence of this show and what makes it such a milestone statement.

Japanese society is in the midst of a massive social change from their age-old inward-looking feudal mindset to a 21st century world-oriented empowerment of the individual. I think this was what Saki was struggling to articulate on the escalator way back when they were leaving America.

Problems of this change are apparent to all, but many are having difficulty even understanding it, much less doing anything about it. These problems obviously manifest in the hikkikomori or NEETs as shown in Eden of the East. And in the high death rates of salarymen by suicide and overwork (like in X's family).

A common reaction in Japan to having a hikkikomori in the family is denial and shame. It really reminds me of the hippies in the West during the 1960s and the social transformation they embodied.

Their society is creaking and groaning under the weight of the old ways and they are desperately looking for ways to make this transition without the whole ediface crashing down.

This program articulates these issues and is very boldly stating that this change is not the end of the world, that it's actually a good thing, and that these new ways need to be integrated into the society, not locked away, for the betterment of all.

The Japanes have been somewhat resistant to change in it's history, going so far as to implement an isolationist existence during the era of the Shoguns.

[slayer545-sama]

Originally Posted by Dextro

Ok Ok hold on just a minute! Did they mention "The Patriots System"?!?!? WTF!?!? Is this some sort of Metal Gear Solid anime and I wasn't aware of it? Is it a coincidence? A nod to Hideo Kojima's work?

All I know is that I stood flabbergasted at the screen when I saw *la-le-li-lo-lu* written on the subs, preety weird stuff...

The patriot system is A MISSILE SYSTEM TO DESTROY OTHER MISSILES! I have been captain the military and know more than ALL OF YOU! I can say to you also it was imprecise and why the USA did not want it now. Furthermore Juriz helped that system as well as the F-18! The F-18 used AIM-9 missiles for close range destruction of other Tomohawks but I would have used AIM-120 for longer range before they would make it near the land!

[Jan-Poo]

Is it even possible to intercept missiles with air-to-air missiles? I've never heard anything of the sort before.

[Lvrhina]

Yay for two movies in the next 6 months to find out what actually happens ><

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Is it even possible to intercept missiles with air-to-air missiles? I've never heard anything of the sort before.

well, those fighters were F-15 which can carry sparrow missiles or the japanese Mitsubishi AAM-4 that can fly at Mach 4 and the tomahawks only can fly at 550 mph. Japan doesn't have F-18 and those clearly had the marks of the JSDF.

[drobertbaker]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I don't think ressentiment really applies here, it's not like he has resentment of a more powerful social class. Nietszche termed his ressentiment as an overpowering jealousy of a the more powerful social classes who are more or less the Haves and those with ressentiment the Have Nots in his "A Genealogy of Morals".

You know, they're going to yell at us if we do this again. But at the risk...

What I was referring to as ressentiment and what I recall Nietzsche meaning was the myths and morality created by the slaves in the master-slave relationship whereby it's really good to be a slave and the slaves are morally superior to the master. According to Nietzsche, this is the genealogy of morals.

Wikipedia seems to contradict itself on this point:

"Ressentiment is a sense of resentment...ressentiment is not to be considered interchangeable with the normal English word resentment...
...speaks to the special relationship between a sense of inferiority and the creation of morality"
I guess this is another illustration of how much we should depend on Wikipedia.

The mindwipe certainly gives him freedom from his past baggage, which I guess is why he did it again. That approach rubs me the wrong way. Experiences can confuse us, but in the end we're better off integrating all our experiences into a new and better understanding. You can't just forget about stuff you don't want to remember! Although people do it all the time.

p.s. Nietzsche is my favorite philosopher and I have all his stuff (including Kaufmann)! Unfortunately I have to move again and haul all that crap around once more.

[k//eternal]

I don't think he wants to know that he made himself a king. That knowledge kind of makes him less "genuine", which is probably also why he needed to rid himself of his phone (i.e., the evidence of making himself king).

Personally, I'm curious what strings will be pulled to establish this new monarchy.

EDIT: Oh hey, I just noticed that the song at the end is playing on the radio at the beginning of the first ep.

[drobertbaker]

Originally Posted by golthin

well, those fighters were F-15 which can carry sparrow missiles or the japanese Mitsubishi AAM-4 that can fly at Mach 4 and the tomahawks only can fly at 550 mph. Japan doesn't have F-18 and those clearly had the marks of the JSDF.

The planes are JASDF flagged F-15s - square engine intakes.

I see AIM-120 Slammers or AAM-4 (they're twins) mounted.
The missile I see fired is the new AAM-5 short-range missile.

My father used to tip over V-1s using the wing of his Spitfire!

FANATICS!

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by drobertbaker

You know, they're going to yell at us if we do this again. But at the risk...

What I was referring to as ressentiment and what I recall Nietzsche meaning was the myths and morality created by the slaves in the master-slave relationship whereby it's really good to be a slave and the slaves are morally superior to the master. According to Nietzsche, this is the geneology of morals.

Wikipedia sems to contradict itself on this point:

"Ressentiment is a sense of resentment...ressentiment is not to be considered interchangeable with the normal English word resentment...
...speaks to the special relationship between a sense of inferiority and the creation of morality"
I guess this is another illustration of how much we should depend on Wikipedia.

The mindwipe certainly gives him freedom from his past baggage, which I guess is why he did it again. That approach rubs me the wrong way. Experiences can confuse us, but in the end we're better off integrating all our experiences into a new and better understanding. You can't just forget about stuff you don't want to remember! Although people do it all the time.

p.s. Nietzsche is my favorite philosopher and I have all his stuff (including Kaufmann)! Unfortunately I have to move again and haul all that crap around once more.

Actually Nietzsche had a point when you consider that most human conflict stems from socioeconomic disputes between rich and poor. To Nietzsche, Slave Morality comes off as the weak people's attempts to somehow justify their woes and find some dignity of sorts in their plight by exepmplfying the righteousness of their suffering and labelling the selfish power of the Masters as evil.

In contrast to the Master Morality who exemplifies their status as the ideal aim of man to reach. Here we see the results of having a dual nature of Morality: one moral direction creates an opposing moral direction. You end up with two conflicting moral compasses because not everyone can lay claim to belong in the same side of the spectrum.

This is paralleled by the opposition between Mononobe and Akira. If I had to make a really loose comparison, Mononobe somehow signifies the Master Morality that attempts to exert his powerful if violent will on the masses because he thinks it is the right thing to do. In contrast Akira could be the Slave Morality, standing with the weaker humans who think they have no say in the upheavals to come and trying to break down the oppression of the more powerful classes.

Edit - Might as well add that Nietzsche never really sided with either moral stances anyway. Even while the concept of the Overman is related more closely to Master Morality, he in his writings has leaned in sympathy for the Slave Moralities as well.

[Kaioshin Sama]

So many parts of this finale made me feel like I was watching Gundam 00 without the mecha with a different goal and a smaller scope:

Spoiler for the final 2 and some Gundam 00 spoilers:

Eden of The East: Ato Saizo, a famous business leaves his legacy in cash and a giant computer system (Juiz) to the Selecao who he hopes will find a way to save the country of Japan and it's future by playing his game.

Gundam 00: Aeolia Schenberg, a famous business man/scientist leaves his legacy in Gundams and a giant computer system (Veda) to Celestial Being who he hopes will find a way to save humanity's future by following his plan.

Eden of The East: For the sake of Japan's stability and the Neets and victims of Careless Monday having someone to blame Takizawa makes himself a villain and takes the fall by erasing his memory.

Gundam 00: For the sake of world unity and the fighting powers to have a common enemy Celestial Being makes itself a villain and takes the fall by letting itself be all but destroyed.

Eden of The East: It's not over though, Mononobe hijacks the game and other players and twists the rules in order to find a shortcut to winning and becoming a messiah figure and for a time all but controls Juiz.

Gundam 00: It's not over though, Ribbons hijacks the Aeolia's plan and the Earth Federation which was supposed to be under the indirect watch of Celestial Being and tries to become a messiah figure for humanity and for a time controls Veda.

Eden of The East: Despite Takizawa's sacrifice some bitchy emo guy named Ohsugi tries to blame him anyway because he got burned with his girlfriend getting involved with his groups activities....despite the fact that Takizawa tried to save his ass. Eventually he comes around though and helps Takizawa out.

Gundam 00: Despite Setsuna's sacrifice some bitchy emo guy named Saji tries to blame him anyway because he got burned with his girlfriend getting enveloped in his groups activities......despite the fact that Setsuna's comrade Allelujah saved his ass. Eventually he comes around though and helps Setsuna out.

Eden of The East: Akira Takizawa who has since the beginning been led along by Mononobe manages to steal the game back from him with the help of the other Selecao and the Eden group and win it while becoming the true messiah in the process, but the story isn't over and will be continuing in the movies.

Gundam 00: Setsuna F. Seiei who has since the beginning been led along by Ribbons manages to steal Veda and humanities future back from him with the help of Celestial Being and the Mannequin fleet and win it while becoming the true messiash in the process, but the story isn't over and will be continuing in the movies.

Special Bonus Comparison:

Eden of The East: Everybody gets naked for world peace and greater understanding!

Gundam 00: Everybody gets naked for world peace and greater understanding!

Intriguing finale overall. Now the race is on to see which movie will come out first.

[MikaMiaka]

I voted perfect -- this show can do no wrong and I'm happy to know about the two movies!

Although ep. 11 did not feel rushed, but at the same time, Saki's explanation in the taxi cab to the rest of the crew could have been two episodes (there was so much info), peppered with slice of life and romantic moments. So, yeah, basically, I just want more, heh!

Although, I don't know if I buy the reason given for him erasing his memories. He couldn't stand the hatred? IDK, that seems like an overly emotional and rash decision to me, and it seems like a decision the present Taki would not make now.

I'm not saying that Takizawa isn't an emotional dude, but it was an emotional decision for such a clever and innovative guy.

Maybe it's just cause he wanted to run away, or maybe he wasn't the person he is now ever since he erased his memories and met Saki.

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by slayer545-sama

The patriot system is A MISSILE SYSTEM TO DESTROY OTHER MISSILES! I have been captain the military and know more than ALL OF YOU! I can say to you also it was imprecise and why the USA did not want it now. Furthermore Juriz helped that system as well as the F-18! The F-18 used AIM-9 missiles for close range destruction of other Tomohawks but I would have used AIM-120 for longer range before they would make it near the land!

Ahhh, i prefered the possibility of a MGS cameo, with Ato Saizo being Liquid at the end or some bullshit like this. It would be so retarded, that it would rocks.

[slayer545-sama]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Is it even possible to intercept missiles with air-to-air missiles? I've never heard anything of the sort before.

Ya it is and those looked like F-18 but I agreed that they could be F-15. They still looked like F-18!

Originally Posted by drobertbaker

The planes are JASDF flagged F-15s - square engine intakes.

I see AIM-120 Slammers or AAM-4 (they're twins) mounted.
The missile I see fired is the new AAM-5 short-range missile.

My father used to tip over V-1s using the wing of his Spitfire!

FANATICS!

NICE ONE! I would agreed with you 100% with no doubt although I still see them look alike of F-18!

I miss the times of your father with Spitfires killing V-1s! Those were the times and have heard some stories of Polish people about this. You should know that Poland did have some of these under their hands to fight the Nazis. MAN THOSE WERE THE REAL TIMES! Now it is all shitty electronics!

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Ahhh, i prefered the possibility of a MGS cameo, with Ato Saizo being Liquid at the end or some bullshit like this. It would be so retarded, that it would rocks.

Yeah but the bad guy in the end would have to be #1, which we still do not know who it is. Maybe the president himself of the country??? Like MGS4 and YOU ARE IN LUCK.....I played all three of them!

[Fevvers]

That was an impressive episode; a bit inconclusive, yes, but that's to be expected anyway, regardless we did get vital developments, namely in Akira's resolve, as well as the reason why the NEETs were shipped away and the outcome of their cooperation. The wait for the movies is sooooo going to be torture! >_>

As for the characters, Akira and Saki mainly, I was actually quite pleasantly surprised with the development they got (not a lot, but enough for the current arc), considering the kind of show this is. I noticed a lot of nuance with them, implicit characterization that focuses more on the character's thoughts, looks and actions. Teaches me not to doubt Kamiyama anymore. Heh.

[WanderingKnight]

What I was referring to as ressentiment and what I recall Nietzsche meaning was the myths and morality created by the slaves in the master-slave relationship whereby it's really good to be a slave and the slaves are morally superior to the master. According to Nietzsche, this is the geneology of morals.

Nietzsche actually says that morality is the weapon of the weak to dominate the strong. Therefore morality is a completely antinatural invention of the weak men dominating the world.

(Note that I don't side with him).

I don't know where you want to get with this though.