Why?

[JOJOS'STAR]

I like it young, nice and clean with no hair between know what I mean.
^__________________________^ ouaf ouaf

No seriously pedophilia is the 8th capital sin.
But anybody who isnt necessarly a mazoshiste will agree that a little "ichi" bite from times to times just makes the plesure more intense ^^

So, young, ok. Too young, not.

If the taste of urine turns you on you have a serious problem.

[Thany]

Originally Posted by JAppi

Well, I don't really have a view on this discussion. (Well actually I do but my reasonings for likeing what I like would probably scare everyone.)

So I'm waiting for kj1980 to post something.

I don't think you can scare more us than your avatar does ^^
By the way about the subject, I dunno.
I guess it comes of cuteness or something.

[JAppi]

Hmm, just out of curiosity FinFangFoom, what exactly is your definition of "child pornography"? Does it include Doujinishi and manga?

If it does then those statistics may be a tad bit off. According to American law manga and doujinshi depicting underaged children is perfectly legal. (as long as no real children were involved.) So all that shota and loli stuff is 100% legal here *and* in the united states.

Also stating the statisics doesn't really get to the root of the problem. That just states that there is a problem. We already established that a while ago.

[Shii]

Why is there a problem? Is the United States exporting 90% of the world's pornography a "problem"? That's contrary to Judæo-Christian values, after all. What makes this more of a "problem" than that?

(Disclaimer of bias: The girl in my avatar is 12 years old.)

[FinFangFoom]

Originally Posted by JAppi

Hmm, just out of curiosity FinFangFoom, what exactly is your definition of "child pornography"? Does it include Doujinishi and manga?

If it does then those statistics may be a tad bit off. According to American law manga and doujinshi depicting underaged children is perfectly legal. (as long as no real children were involved.) So all that shota and loli stuff is 100% legal here *and* in the united states.

Last I checked your right, I think it was a recent supreme court decision that depicting minors in sexual explicit material is legal if like you said "a no real children were involved" although I know it was under appeal but havn't really followed it to see what came of that. So that's probably why anime and manga can get away with it. Also I think anything that is not sexually graphic is ok also. So you can have a picture of a naked child at a nudist colony, but if the picture is graphic in any way, like a HUSTLER shot, it's illegal.

I assumed that by "child pornography" they meant real children, but in the quote they don't really specify, so maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am.

[QUOTE/]Also stating the statisics doesn't really get to the root of the problem. That just states that there is a problem. We already established that a while ago. [/QUOTE]That's really hard to say for sure. It only goes to show that there is a market for underage girls in sex, it's hard to say if anime and manga producers are targeting the same demographic or not. I would guess that people who enjoy watching cartoon minors engaging in sexualy explicit conduct are not far from wanting to see the real thing either.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's a Japanese problem only by any means. Statistics in America for child abuse are staggering. If you could get away with it here as much as Japan, I'm sure the demand would be great.

Originally Posted by ashibaka

Why is there a problem? Is the United States exporting 90% of the world's pornography a "problem"? That's contrary to Judæo-Christian values, after all. What makes this more of a "problem" than that?

(Disclaimer of bias: The girl in my avatar is 12 years old.)

What do you mean by this?

[Shii]

Doujin depicting underage children.

[Vulkar]

if it counts for anything, I prefer women my age (20) or very very near it...and well I've never really been into the whole kawaii (sp?) 12 year old shy girl thing anyway. I mean I hate Shinobu in Love Hina with a passion!

<-----and look at my avatar. She's not 12!

[Shii]

Well, I don't think this is a "what type are you" thread

[FinFangFoom]

Originally Posted by ashibaka

Doujin depicting underage children.

I would say the reason it's worse is pretty obvious. Anyone looking extensively at pornography is doing it because they are attracted to the people portrayed in the magazine or video. And you will find very few people who are happy just to look at porn but abstain from sex (by choice ) . But what they watch and read are surly going to influance what it is they want when it comes time to act it out in real life. I'm sure most people reading said Doujin aren't really child molestors, but I wouldn't doubt if many of them fantasize about it. And if they are put into a position where they have a chance to live out their fantasy, it would seem more likely that they would go for it.

Sorry if I come across as sounding like I think what I say is a fact, I'm just reasoning. I know I could be way off. I'm sure the extreme amount of child abuse in America has waaaaay more to do with regular porn than Doujin and Anime. I just think if you look at it in terms of percentages, enjoying cartoon minors would seem to be more likely to influance someone towards child abuse than watching real grownups.

[Shii]

Originally Posted by FinFangFoom

I'm sure most people reading said Doujin aren't really child molestors, but I wouldn't doubt if many of them fantasize about it. And if they are put into a position where they have a chance to live out their fantasy, it would seem more likely that they would go for it.

Well, unlike in regular pornography, they're only anime characters, not real people. And many people have romantic attractions to anime characters where they wouldn't towards actual people of the same age and gender (c.f. all the men who love Yukito of CCS or Bridget of GGXX).

[FinFangFoom]

Originally Posted by ashibaka

Well, unlike in regular pornography, they're only anime characters, not real people. And many people have romantic attractions to anime characters where they wouldn't towards actual people of the same age and gender (c.f. all the men who love Yukito of CCS or Bridget of GGXX).

I guess you could be right. I've watched Hentai and have no problem with it,
And when I said

I'm sure most people reading said Doujin aren't really child molestors, but I wouldn't doubt if many of them fantasize about it. And if they are put into a position where they have a chance to live out their fantasy, it would seem more likely that they would go for it.

I've never really seen much Doujin, so maybe I'm speaking to soon. The stuff I'm imagining would be more like if the girls looked like the girls in Gunslinger Girl or something like that. Maybe I have the wrong picture in mind. But if it's like that, then I don't think what I'm saying is a stretch.

[Kurara]

Well.. What I was worrying about or concerned about isn't wheter dojinshi with girls under 15 should be legal or not.. I actually think it should be legal because I think it could keep people from looking for the real thing, I guess.. I don't think it's harmful either.

I just feel very confused about it. Many, many people look at those doujinshi... Even my boyfriend or other people I know. It makes me wonder if they fantasize about real girls that age. I've seen some of the hentai sites some guys I know look at... They're legal because they're drawings.. But.. The girls in it sometimes look like they could be 4 or 5 years old and they wear kindergarten outfits.

I always thought that people were young until they were about 35.. Has that changed at all? I mean.. The way certain people make it sound.. Even in this thread.. Is that girls under.. say.. 15 years old are better and more innocent and that older women are no good and that men date them only because they can't date someone under 18. x.x;; Is this really how it is now? I don't usually notice that IRL.. I've noticed it a lot in this forum and in the people I know online... Even in my boyfriend.. Even if I'm totally.. confused and worried about it.

I just don't really know what to think anymore. A lot of the reasons you guys have stated don't really have any value to me because I can contradict them a lot.. Like the innocence thing.. I guess maybe I just don't want to hear a reason, but to hear that it's not completely true. ... Which is why, I guess, I'd like to talk to someone about this outside of this forum. ...

[Slade]

Originally Posted by Kurara

Okay, this is a sensitive topic. But I needed to talk about it here. Read it at your own risk.. I'm not sure if I can bring this up here but I suppose there's no problem.

Why is it that in a lot of anime series.. Younger girls are so much more popular? I mean, why is it that guys these days.. Japanese AND American guys seem to prefer really young girls..? Maybe I'm paranoid, but as time goes on I keep meeting guys who admit to me that they like young teenage girls. [ I mean, like.. 11-12 years old. x.x ] Is this me, or do most guys really prefer girls that young?

To draw better, I always copy art. So I always look at Japanese art websites.. And I -often- fall on websites with art of really young girls.. [ sometimes children... ] Sometimes in questionable situations. @_@; I'm not bothered or angered by it, because I have no right to be... I just wonder why this is so popular..

I guess I feel old. But I always wondered why it was that way..

Humm.. I can see why you say that. The anime characters don't seem very old... mostly in their teens and sometimes in extremes, in their 10-12s. I personally don't find teenage girls that attractive. All the important women in my life have been older than me and I tend to dislike too cutesy characters when it comes to anime... I tried watching azumanga... but... it was too cute and annoyed me so I couldn't finish watching it. Same with alot of series.

I believe alot of guys like younger girls because the typical stereotype is younger = weaker. And it's a common fantasy of men to dominate the women so they tend to be more attracted to weaker/younger women. Although I don't fully understand why they would want them in a sexual manner... ah well, as long as they don't transfer their fetish for young teens in animes to real life, I don't think it's harmful.

[Shii]

Originally Posted by Kurara

Is that girls under.. say.. 15 years old are better and more innocent and that older women are no good and that men date them only because they can't date someone under 18. x.x;; Is this really how it is now? I don't usually notice that IRL.. I've noticed it a lot in this forum and in the people I know online... Even in my boyfriend.. Even if I'm totally.. confused and worried about it.

No.

That's how it is in anime.



And actually, I see girls on these forums lust over very many young guys in different anime, although I'm at a loss for really popular examples.

[FinFangFoom]

Originally Posted by Kurara

. I guess maybe I just don't want to hear a reason, but to hear that it's not completely true. ... Which is why, I guess, I'd like to talk to someone about this outside of this forum. ...

If all you want to know is if there are guys that prefer girls that are not teenagers or younger, the answer is yes. I know two guys that actually prefer older women, (well, ones dead now ) but both are/were in their early to mid-twenties but prefer women in their 30's (one like's them even in their 40's). The reason is that they prefer women that are experianced and at their sexual peak. O.K, sorry that doesn't really paint them in a noble light either, but it does work both ways.

But really Kurara you worry to much. I think a few months ago you were concerned about men's obsession with asian girls. I've seen your picture, your a cute girl and should have more confidence.

Just be weary of the guys that spend to much time at internet sites with pics of girls that "sometimes look like they could be 4 or 5 years old and they wear kindergarten outfits"

[Kurara]

^_^;; Whoa.. I posted about guy's obsession with asian girls? that's weird.. I don't remember that at all. o.o Must not have been me.. Or maybe I was pointing it out as a joke.. ^^;

The reason why I worry about this is.. Kinda personal.. And I suppose what you're saying about guys who like older girls is similar.. But I do like older guys as well so I can't talk.. I just sort of feel that... If a guy over 25 doesn't like girls unless they're that much younger than him... I feel that it's a bit selfish. I don't see anything wrong with guys looking at young teenage girls in anime.. I just don't know what to think of it when it seems that it's what they like the most, you know?

And for Ashibaka's post... you are right about young anime guys being popular as well. It just sometimes seems a bit confusing... I suppose it's normal that most anime characters are under 18 because.. Well... College stories aren't as interesting as high school stories and everything. I'm just mainly talking about the popularity of those hentai websites ... It's just really hard to make a difference between this and reality.

[AG3]

Originally Posted by Slade

I believe alot of guys like younger girls because the typical stereotype is younger = weaker. And it's a common fantasy of men to dominate the women so they tend to be more attracted to weaker/younger women.

You are forgetting an important side of male nature: Protection.

In most social species, the male is the one protecting the pack/colony/family from outside harm. Human males aren't any different. How many guys would, in the face of danger, run away and leave their girlfriend to take care of it? Not many (maybe if she was a fifth grade black belt or something, but lets pretend she's not). Guys will often be attracted to those who seem weak and need protection, and who is weaker and more innocent than young girls? That might also be the reason why so few girls are attracted to boys/men who are several years younger than them. They would rather go for a more mature guy who can adequately take care of them. Of course there are individual differences, but in married couples the woman is usually not the oldest one, and if she is the age difference tend to be only slight.

I read somewhere that men and women feel pain differently. Women feel pain more emotionally, while males are more analytical about it. Different parts of the brain is used to react to pain and danger in males than in females. The article didn't specify much more than that, it only mentioned that it served each gender's "original" purpose better that way.

Anyway, a lot of guys feel the need to protect weaker girls, and often find such girls attractive.

Originally Posted by Kurara

I just feel very confused about it. Many, many people look at those doujinshi... Even my boyfriend or other people I know. It makes me wonder if they fantasize about real girls that age. I've seen some of the hentai sites some guys I know look at... They're legal because they're drawings.. But.. The girls in it sometimes look like they could be 4 or 5 years old and they wear kindergarten outfits.

The taboo factor itself tends to attract people. Extreme stuff tend appeal to a lot of people. While they wouldn't normally try to do anything like it in real life, it becomes "ok" if it's fiction. Take the Japanese ero-games as an example. They are seperated into several genres, some of them deal with pretty dark stuff like rape, torture and domination. I personally hate games like that (Shukketsubo/Virgin Roster, Sensei 2, Tsuki), but a lot of people like it. I've talked to some of them, and they can't really explain why they like it. But all of them are quite clear that it's only ok as long as it is fiction. Just like most people have no problem killing in videogames like GTA:VC (and let's not start another "side effect" discussion). You will always have weirdo's who wouldn't mind the real thing (snuff movies and the like), but the majority find it ok only as long as it doesn't have any real-life consequences.

Fantasizing isn't a bad thing. It's what you do in real life that counts. A lot of people, at one point or another, fantasize about rape and similar subjects. I did a few times when I was younger. It can certainly have appeal as long as it remain fantasy, where you can control action, outcome and consequence. But it's no good further than that, and I personally found it grew rather old after a while. I highly doubt most guys would enjoy bringing girls pain and suffering, so I wouldn't worry about guys reading doujinshi and stuff like it.

Originally Posted by Kurara

A lot of the reasons you guys have stated don't really have any value to me because I can contradict them a lot

There will always be individual differences. Most of the reasons I've stated is based on genetics, not social behaviour. But just as a lot of guys like younger girls, a lot are attracted to women who are more grown-up. Some men prefer to be dominated.

In manga and anime, you often have young women/girls depicted as the "perfect" girl, made to appeal to a man in every way (not everyone likes it, but a lot do). I can't see a sensible adult transfer that to real life. Let's take any 16 year old anime girl who is attractive, say Kaname Chidori from Full Metal Panic (I like her). Then go to my classes, where a lot 16 year old girls are. I can't find a SINGLE person I'd feel remotely the same way bout. Maybe it's because I'm a grumpy 24 year old catching up on studies in a class full of immature "brats", but I can't in any way feel the same about one of them as about a cute, fictious anime girl. In real life, I'd prefer a girl about 20 or 21 years old, but in anime I prefer younger, cuter girls.

I can't speak for anyone but myself there, though.

[Kurara]

Well.. About liking younger girls... The whole protective thing.. I think there's a big difference between a guy in his late 20's or 30's who drools over 11-12 years old's and a guy who likes girls 2-3 years younger than them like you just said you do. Or a 40 year old man who prefers going out with a woman in her early 30's..That's different.. In fact.. I think it's a big, big difference... Because that implies that no one is too old because there's always a man who's a few years older than they are. But what I was trying to know is... if all men really mainly like extremely young girls.

Also I wasn't really talking about high school characters... Because most girls 15 years old and over have finished growing.. And in anime, you can usually tell when a girl is in high school.. Even if some characters look younger.. Well, some girls look younger in real life too. .. And many girls look and act the same as 25 as they did when they were 15... I don't think there's anything wrong with liking a certain character either, even if they're really young and under that age because it has to do with personality.... I mean, even an older woman could have that personality so it doesn't have to do with it I guess..

[AG3]

Well... I'm 24, most girls in my class is 16. I can't say I feel anything towards them, they're too young for my taste. My real-life taste. They're simply too immature, their behaviour grate on my nerves, they are, in my eyes, "kids". Since anime girls often act older than they are, I find them less annoying, if at all, and so it is easier to like them. I know full well I'll never see a girl like that in real life, and that's probably a good thing.

Originally Posted by Kurara

But what I was trying to know is... if all men really mainly like extremely young girls

No. As I said above, I can find a fictious character attractive because her creators have given her all the features I like. But no real-life girl is like that, and as such it would be rather worrying if I went around searching for such a person. I have yet to see a 16 year old (or younger) girl whos behaviour gets any other reaction from me than "kids these days"... At the end of the day, when you're finished reading that manga or that anime episode has finished playing, it's the girl you can put your arm around that's important. At least in my opinion.

I think you are worried that the guys won't be able to separate anime/manga from real-life. It's much the same discussion as is going on over in the USA. Considering how many people enjoy works of fiction that contain violence, and works that contain sex for that matter, there are no indications that the majority of people have any problem separating the two.

Really, even if one of those guys where to try to pick up a real 12 year old girl, I highly doubt it would take long before they realized it was very different from that doujinshi they read.

[Kurara]

Originally Posted by AG3

I think you are worried that the guys won't be able to separate anime/manga from real-life. It's much the same discussion as is going on over in the USA. Considering how many people enjoy works of fiction that contain violence, and works that contain sex for that matter, there are no indications that the majority of people have any problem separating the two.

Actually that's not the case at all.. ^_^;; I mean.. I myself had problems dealing with people who didn't understand anime and who were afraid I'd forget about reality.. So I can't worry about something like that. ... I suppose I'm the one who's having a hard time making difference between reality and anime, which is stupid... x.x;;;;
And like I said earlier.. It's much related to personal issues and things about my past and people I've been around.. I know people know how to make a difference between anime and reality.. I guess it's just me who can't really see the difference in a way.

I've been around some people who were into girls that young, but I'm not talking about anime girls.. I'm talking about real girls. I guess I connected the two things, and I felt a little worried. ^_^; And it happens often that I hear as a joke things like "Oh, old men always like to check out middle school girls" .. x.x

Besides.. Even if you did look at a 16 year old girl.. I wouldn't think that's bad... Or abnormal. Even if she was much younger than 16 too... What would bother me is... If someone mainly looked at girls under 15 or little girls and only dated women their age because they had to or didnt look at anyone older than that.... I admit... That would bother me, even if it's none of my business... And I have met some people [ not a lot, but some ] who think that way... Which is why I guess I've been sensitive about this ._.;;