Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Levy

A reason why I - and I can speak only for myself - like Gino's character?
because he's dumb and out of place the majority of the time, and almost always laugh things away. It's enough for me to like him. Not that I love him with burning passion, but I like him.

and yes, sometimes we agree on something XD
flash!edit: and you complimented Nogi on her ethics..?! really!!? ... awww can I hug you now!? =P

@sky: don't say such things with and Ishida icon or you'll make me even more gaaay XD I see what you mean, the funny things is.. that I'm all Nippon-pon myself... XDDD

Well, the times Gino makes me lol, i like him too, i will admit that. But i suppose, it is the comic effect, not the chara himself. His ideas and the way he acts most of the time, is not my cup of tea. But i certainly do not hate him with a passion. Dislike, is a better term i guess.

come on, Ishida is the sexy calm power. |DD;

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

You can make that excuse for Hitler too. Hitler is considered evil, Gino should be considered evil too. You have to have some malice in your heart to think that killing people to shut them up, is a good idea.

Well, considering what history tells us, that would make more than 90% of the human population "evil", if not (almost) everyone.
Did the average Roman mind slavery? Did people protest when most countries made themselves out to be "chosen by God" and/or inherently superior to others at one point or another?
I don't think so.
A heavily flawed system can only exist because people in general are easily corrupted - that's how I see it.
And I got the impression that Code Geass agrees with me on that, even though it gives us some notable exceptions.

Seeing as how he was not an intended character for the real R2, I would say he never had any potential, at least no more than other random characters that acocomplished nothing.

Has that been officially stated?
Then I really don't see the point in the "making Suzaku smile" line.
Oh well... R2. xD

Problem with that is that there are fine examples against him thinking of his friends. He never even takes a moment to consider Suzaku's stance, he just opposes without thought.

Then again, Suzaku never let him get too close, and Gino was just too loyal to Britannia to look past the "Evil Emperor of Doom" thing.
After Zero Requiem, he has the chance to do better... and I imagine he's going to use it. He will not become a second Euphie, but I don't think he'll go and hunt some "Elevens" for fun.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Seeing as how he was not an intended character for the real R2, I would say he never had any potential, at least no more than other random characters that acocomplished nothing.

I'd argue that it's not so much that Gino was not planned but that they never did anything of substance with him not did they seem to have intended to. Potential is not measured by whether that character was planned to be in a story from the get go but rather in how they use them. Of course Gino fails on all accounts so...

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Well, considering what history tells us, that would make more than 90% of the human population "evil", if not (almost) everyone.
Did the average Roman mind slavery? Did people protest when most countries made themselves out to be "chosen by God" and/or inherently superior to others at one point or another?
I don't think so.
A heavily flawed system can only exist because people in general are easily corrupted - that's how I see it.
And I got the impression that Code Geass agrees with me on that.

In case you have not noticed, humans as a race are not wholly pleasant. But you just HAD to mention slavery in antiquity didn't you? Well if you were to bring up that subject then you have to look at it from the context of the culture it is from. Slavery was the norm back then and it was not only the Romans that did it. Slaves are spoils from defeated people but you also have to look at the system. Slaves are also frequently freed by their patrons and become freedmen in Roman times, so much so that there are laws for them in terms of owning property and social obligations to the people that freed them after having become freed men. Although certainly that does not always happen but they simply did not see slaves in the same light as we do in modern times and their meaning by not be the same either.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Then again, Suzaku never let him get too close, and Gino was just too loyal to Britannia to look past the "Evil Emperor of Doom" thing.
After Zero Requiem, he has the chance to do better... and I imagine he's going to use it. He will not become a second Euphie, but I don't think he'll go and hunt some "Elevens" for fun.

That was when Lelouch was seen as the "Emperor of Justice" and loved by everyone, this was immediately after he abolished the areas. Lelouch was not anything evil at all when Gino opposed him and Suzaku, they were the most loved.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

In case you have not noticed, humans as a race are not wholly pleasant. But you just HAD to mention slavery in antiquity didn't you? Well if you were to bring up that subject then you have to look at it from the context of the culture it is from. Slavery was the norm back then and it was not only the Romans that did it. Slaves are spoils from defeated people but you also have to look at the system. Slaves are also frequently freed by their patrons and become freedmen in Roman times, so much so that there are laws for them in terms of owning property and social obligations to the people that freed them after having become freed men. Although certainly that does not always happen but they simply did not see slaves in the same light as we do in modern times and their meaning by not be the same either.

Which proves my point: the society they live in has a great influence on people.
Romans didn't mind enslaving their enemies. Britannia doesn't mind killing them.
So either the system is "evil", or people in general are. Or both, because they are so closely connected... or neither.
And that's exactly why I don't see any characters in Code Geass as "evil", including Gino. He's far from being moral, but it's not like he is a lost cause - just corrupted by false ideals.
Britannia as a whole seems to have this problem. There are some exceptions, like Lloyd, who's just... well, Lloyd; or Clovis, who just didn't seem to care much about anything anymore - except maintaining his status, but even that seemed more like desperation to me than anything else.
I'm not saying that either of them is "better" or more moral than the other, but neither do I view them as "evil".

Originally Posted by Frostfire

That was when Lelouch was seen as the "Emperor of Justice" and loved by everyone, this was immediately after he abolished the areas. Lelouch was not anything evil at all when Gino opposed him and Suzaku, they were the most loved.

But Lelouch had also killed Charles and not been very... modest about it. Anyway, that's the blind loyalty again, and it's definitely not a good thing. But I think he might very well be able to cut those ties now.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Which proves my point: the society they live in has a great influence on people.
Romans didn't mind enslaving their enemies. Britannia doesn't mind killing them.
So either the system is "evil", or people in general are. Or both, because they are so closely connected... or neither.
And that's exactly why I don't see any characters in Code Geass as "evil", including Gino. He's far from being moral, but it's not like he is a lost cause - just corrupted by false ideals.
Britannia as a whole seems to have this problem. There are some exceptions, like Lloyd, who's just... well, Lloyd; or Clovis, who just didn't seem to care much about anything anymore - except maintaining his status, but even that seemed more like desperation to me than anything else.
I'm not saying that either of them is "better" or more moral than the other, but neither do I view them as "evil".\

Perhaps I was not very clear. My point was that slavery does not essentially carry the negative connotation in Rome that you think it does when you are using it as an example to prove your point. For example their slaves of conquered people are generally not treated as badly as the slaves we are familiar with. We can even tell in several occasions that they are treated as confidants of their patrons. Cicero's freedman managed his accounts and is quite close to Cicero's family and in particular Cicero's son. The letters we still have indicate a certain level of closeness and fondness between the two. That is not the exception in Rome either. So really I do not believe it proves your point very well.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Perhaps I was not very clear. My point was that slavery does not essentially carry the negative connotation in Rome that you think it does when you are using it as an example to prove your point. For example their slaves of conquered people are generally not treated as badly as the slaves we are familiar with. We can even tell in several occasions that they are treated as confidants of their patrons. Cicero's freedman managed his accounts and is quite close to Cicero's family and in particular Cicero's son. The letters we still have indicate a certain level of closeness and fondness between the two. That is not the exception in Rome either. So really I do not believe it proves your point very well.

And slaves who tried to run or rebel were often crucified.

Not to mention that there were slaves who were used for pleasure.
The Romans may have thought that was all right. But if they can have their own moral standards, so can Britannia.

[Grey Dawn]

You should try Sparta. They had a hunting season where young Spartans proved how manly they were by finding the fittest Helot they could, hunting him down, and killing him unarmed. Naturally, they could rape them whenever they wanted to as well. If a girl accidently came of one of those unions, they were just left out to starve and die because they wouldn't be as useful for work.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

But Lelouch had also killed Charles and not been very... modest about it. Anyway, that's the blind loyalty again, and it's definitely not a good thing. But I think he might very well be able to cut those ties now.

I find that hard to fathom and see it as nothing more than hopefulness when he didn't even allow his best friend to explain his actions and opposed him, despite being loved by everyone, for not agreeing with his view. As Gino said, he doesn't accept their Britannia.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

And slaves who tried to run or rebel were often crucified.

Not to mention that there were slaves who were used for pleasure.
The Romans may have thought that was all right. But if they can have their own moral standards, so can Britannia.

Well obviously... are you suggesting that punishment for breaking laws is amoral? Obviously there have also been revolts and such (Sparticus and his slave rebellion for one) but facts are that one of the strengths of the Romans was their ability to tie conquered people to them through citizenship and the granting of rights which permeated to their treatment of the slaves of conquered people. As I said that is not always the case but in general the way they view slaves especially after the republican period is not exactly how you made it out to be. (I am deliberately not touching the subject of the "pleasure slaves" as on the whole women in antiquity is... complicated...)

[Frostfire]

Nogi, your comparison of cultures and acceptance is also a rather poor one. You are saying that people get born into cultures and that they accept them because that is all that they know, which is true. But your argument runsaground when you realize that you are comparing a common citizen, someone who is not involved in the inner workings and likely quite oblvious to most things, to someone like Gino who is fully engrossed in the inner workings of the system.

This is why I compared him and the KoR to the Schutzstaffel, because neither are just common citizens born into a nation and people who simply go with the flow of the nation, they are people who know and understand all the inner workings of the nation and willingly perpetuate them. Most Nazis and German citizens did not know about the camps, or the mass slaughterings of Jews, they were told A while the Schutzstaffel did B. How many Germans do you think heard about the various reason-less murderings of Jews on the streets by disgruntled Schutzstaffel soldiers or by orders from the top to "cut back on a ghetto's population and to redistribute the cloth for new incomers". How many Britannians do you think would have been told that Gino led a bunch of Knightmares to slaughter people seeking freedom? How many Britannians do you think know that Cornelia annihilated a ghetto of innocent people, and not just a "hive of terrorists that threatened everyone". The common Britannian likely did not know about any of the horrors that were done, that is what media is for, and we even see it in season 1 that the media is active in spinning the stories. These people do not have to accept the evil of their nation because they have no clue it exists, they are oblivious, much as most of the Germany's National Socialist German's Working Party were.

This is where the comparison between the Schutzstaffel and KoR comes in, you can throw in Cornelia and even Clovis into the mix if you want, because they fully understood how the system worked, mass killings, racial oppression, and so on, and perpetuated it with no signs of regret or morality. To them, the people that they oppressed were simply targets waiting to be shot in the case of a revolt. The Schutzstaffel were butchers that killed to keep disidents, jews, and every other group that the Nazi's disagreed with, in check and under its heel. Utterly no different from what the KoR do regularly, what Gino is shown doing and suggesting, and what Cornelia is shown doing. The Schutzstaffel are by all standards considered an abomination of a group and many people consider them downright evil people, to the very core, because they accepted the job of slaughterers of people who simply did not want to live under someone's heel. It is these people that were, at the end of WWII, tried for various warcrimes, crimes against humanity, and most who were detained (and that did not flee) were executed. The KoR are no different, and there is nothing to distinguish Gino from the group, he is a slaughterer just like the rest of them. A man who willingly kills and tramples people to perpetuate his own idealogy, and he does it while smiling. There is no "being born into the system" for these people because they had at every oppurtunity the chance to realize (even if its just morally) that what they were doing may have been wrong, but it never crossed any of their minds. You don't see any of them ever contemplating the blood on their hands nor do they even give more than a seconds thought to slaughtering civilians if it quells an uprising.

People who do not even get the sense of "this might be wrong", enjoy doing it, and willingly do it, are generally called psychopaths. People aren't conditioned into this, unless they go through rigerous desensitization training (which I highly doubt Gino ever did), they are born like this and they are generally called genuinely evil people, or at the very least completely amoral.

Did you ever wonder why Gino, Luciano, Bismark, Anya, and so on, were in the same unit? Because they are all psychopaths or completely emotionless people, and fanatically loyal. People you work with generally tend to be a reflection on your own character, Gino works with people like Luciano and Bismark, they show us that he is not that different from them, even if he may not be as bad as them. When Suzaku was with them, he was also a lunatic who did not, despite all that his character stood for, give second chances. He killed mercilessly and he managed to earn the title of Shinigami, a title not easily earned in only one year. These are not people who are just born into the system, these are people who fully understand and support said system and are as corrupt and vile as the system itself.

Gino may not be a demonite like Luciano, but he is an amoral man within an evil organization, that has the sole purpose of controlling the world and keeping nations under-heel. And he is fully aware and accepting of that fact. And like I said, in any realistic conclusion, Gino would have been tried for countless warcrimes and executed. You cannot brush away who the man is, and there is nothing in the show that even shows that he has left that behind (which would be nigh impossible given how fanatically loyal he was to begin with).

[azul120]

But I thought Suzaku still tried peaceably avoiding or ending strikes against forces in enemy territories. Where was he noted that he gained that rank of Shinigami?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by azul120

But I thought Suzaku still tried peaceably avoiding or ending strikes against forces in enemy territories. Where was he noted that he gained that rank of Shinigami?

He did nothing of the sort. You don't gain a name like "White Death" for being lovey dovey to everyone you meet. All Suzaku did was say "give up and I won't kill you," then rampaged once the opponent inevitably said "no." As shown in the picture drama he was complicit in the conquering of what must be quite a few countries, and saving that little girl to make him feel better doesn't change that fact. For all his claims of non-violence, Suzaku did nothing but perpetuate Britannia's violent expansionism during his stint as a KoR. Even before that he went along with the violence, though to his credit he's simply too ignorant to realize what he's doing then.

[azul120]

Gotcha. Guess I remembered it wrong. Where did the "White Death" thing come from?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He did nothing of the sort. You don't gain a name like "White Death" for being lovey dovey to everyone you meet. All Suzaku did was say "give up and I won't kill you," then rampaged once the opponent inevitably said "no." As shown in the picture drama he was complicit in the conquering of what must be quite a few countries, and saving that little girl to make him feel better doesn't change that fact. For all his claims of non-violence, Suzaku did nothing but perpetuate Britannia's violent expansionism during his stint as a KoR. Even before that he went along with the violence, though to his credit he's simply too ignorant to realize what he's doing then.

Really though, I must wonder how the hell he could have changed so much when earlier, he was so anti-war.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I find that hard to fathom and see it as nothing more than hopefulness when he didn't even allow his best friend to explain his actions and opposed him, despite being loved by everyone, for not agreeing with his view. As Gino said, he doesn't accept their Britannia.

Hm, then again, "best friend" is relative here. I mean, Gino didn't have that much friends, and Suzaku, even though he constantly jumped him, never let him get all that close.
So... yeah, I have hope. xD

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Well obviously... are you suggesting that punishment for breaking laws is amoral?

Uhm... yeah, when the punishment is crucifying, I dare think so.

Obviously there have also been revolts and such (Sparticus and his slave rebellion for one) but facts are that one of the strengths of the Romans was their ability to tie conquered people to them through citizenship and the granting of rights which permeated to their treatment of the slaves of conquered people. As I said that is not always the case but in general the way they view slaves especially after the republican period is not exactly how you made it out to be. (I am deliberately not touching the subject of the "pleasure slaves" as on the whole women in antiquity is... complicated...)

But they didn't only use female slaves for pleasure. And as far as I know, that was considered perfectly normal.
Roman slavery may not have been the most awful of all in the history of mankind, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to switch places with one of those slaves, either.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Nogi, your comparison of cultures and acceptance is also a rather poor one. You are saying that people get born into cultures and that they accept them because that is all that they know, which is true. But your argument runsaground when you realize that you are comparing a common citizen, someone who is not involved in the inner workings and likely quite oblvious to most things, to someone like Gino who is fully engrossed in the inner workings of the system.

I think most people in Rome didn't hesitate to punish their slaves by means we would consider morally questionable at best, so I think for making my point about Gino not being completely "evil", this example is all right. Not the best, maybe, but it works, because Code Geass itself does seem to blame the system much more than the people.

This is why I compared him and the KoR to the Schutzstaffel, because neither are just common citizens born into a nation and people who simply go with the flow of the nation, they are people who know and understand all the inner workings of the nation and willingly perpetuate them. Most Nazis and German citizens did not know about the camps, or the mass slaughterings of Jews, they were told A while the Schutzstaffel did B. How many Germans do you think heard about the various reason-less murderings of Jews on the streets by disgruntled Schutzstaffel soldiers or by orders from the top to "cut back on a ghetto's population and to redistribute the cloth for new incomers". How many Britannians do you think would have been told that Gino led a bunch of Knightmares to slaughter people seeking freedom? How many Britannians do you think know that Cornelia annihilated a ghetto of innocent people, and not just a "hive of terrorists that threatened everyone". The common Britannian likely did not know about any of the horrors that were done, that is what media is for, and we even see it in season 1 that the media is active in spinning the stories. These people do not have to accept the evil of their nation because they have no clue it exists, they are oblivious, much as most of the Germany's National Socialist German's Working Party were.

Those people simply don't see what they don't want to see. It's not the same as actually doing the killing themselves, no, but there are enough examples in history where the average citizen thought that annihilating the "enemy" or enslaving "inferior" people was awesome.
Which is why I don't think that the average Britannian would have minded innocent "Elevens" dying for their nation all that much. Charles' speeches said it all.

This is where the comparison between the Schutzstaffel and KoR comes in, you can throw in Cornelia and even Clovis into the mix if you want, because they fully understood how the system worked, mass killings, racial oppression, and so on, and perpetuated it with no signs of regret or morality. To them, the people that they oppressed were simply targets waiting to be shot in the case of a revolt.

I think comparing any of the characters to the Schutzstaffel is pushing it, but I especially disagree about Clovis.
He may not have cared about innocent people dying anymore after three years in Area Eleven, but I also doubt he supported the system.
Before he came to Japan, he had other plans than Cornelia, who told him to "leave his feelings out of this" and just bring to heel whoever resists. He also didn't seem very prejudiced against "Numbers" in the Sound Drama (except maybe that they "let Lelouch die", but he seemed to have been past that already), and simply underestimated the system when he made his plans.
He became quite the bastard, but not because he thought Britannia was awesome, but because he abandoned all his morals and "kindness" along the way and became indifferent to almost everything.

The Schutzstaffel were butchers that killed to keep disidents, jews, and every other group that the Nazi's disagreed with, in check and under its heel. Utterly no different from what the KoR do regularly, what Gino is shown doing and suggesting, and what Cornelia is shown doing. The Schutzstaffel are by all standards considered an abomination of a group and many people consider them downright evil people, to the very core, because they accepted the job of slaughterers of people who simply did not want to live under someone's heel. It is these people that were, at the end of WWII, tried for various warcrimes, crimes against humanity, and most who were detained (and that did not flee) were executed.

The KoR, however, weren't executed, and I think that's because the staff didn't see them as the same as the people you are talking about.
To me, the ending means that all the characters left alive were capable of change, and even if you don't think that's very believable, I don't have a problem with it except that it came out of nowhere in many case due to a lack of screentime.

The KoR are no different, and there is nothing to distinguish Gino from the group, he is a slaughterer just like the rest of them. A man who willingly kills and tramples people to perpetuate his own idealogy, and he does it while smiling. There is no "being born into the system" for these people because they had at every oppurtunity the chance to realize (even if its just morally) that what they were doing may have been wrong, but it never crossed any of their minds. You don't see any of them ever contemplating the blood on their hands nor do they even give more than a seconds thought to slaughtering civilians if it quells an uprising.

People who do not even get the sense of "this might be wrong", enjoy doing it, and willingly do it, are generally called psychopaths. People aren't conditioned into this, unless they go through rigerous desensitization training (which I highly doubt Gino ever did), they are born like this and they are generally called genuinely evil people, or at the very least completely amoral.

So maybe Gino was born a bit "psycho". But I still don't think he is a bad person at heart - he just has less trouble killing someone if he thinks it is justified than most people. That's a bit disturbing, yes, but after Zero Requiem, he should be able to think about what is right and wrong and find a better path.
That's what the ending was about, after all.
And really, Kallen being ready to kill her friends if they found out about her connection to the Black Knights isn't exactly "normal", either. It's a result of what happened to her and what she believed in. Of course she's still a much "better" person than Gino, but we don't know enough about what went on inside his head to say if there was a time when he had trouble taking lives.

Did you ever wonder why Gino, Luciano, Bismark, Anya, and so on, were in the same unit? Because they are all psychopaths or completely emotionless people, and fanatically loyal. People you work with generally tend to be a reflection on your own character, Gino works with people like Luciano and Bismark, they show us that he is not that different from them, even if he may not be as bad as them. When Suzaku was with them, he was also a lunatic who did not, despite all that his character stood for, give second chances. He killed mercilessly and he managed to earn the title of Shinigami, a title not easily earned in only one year. These are not people who are just born into the system, these are people who fully understand and support said system and are as corrupt and vile as the system itself.

Yeah, they were all bastards more than once. But that doesn't necessarily mean they were lost cases.

Gino may not be a demonite like Luciano, but he is an amoral man within an evil organization, that has the sole purpose of controlling the world and keeping nations under-heel. And he is fully aware and accepting of that fact. And like I said, in any realistic conclusion, Gino would have been tried for countless warcrimes and executed. You cannot brush away who the man is, and there is nothing in the show that even shows that he has left that behind (which would be nigh impossible given how fanatically loyal he was to begin with).

I agree that Gino isn't the Easter Bunny. But the whole point of the ending of Code Geass seemed to be that most citizens and all the "important" people left alive were able to change under the right circumstances.
Again, this might not work very well in real life, but I didn't mind it at all in Code Geass, except for the fact that it was much too rushed.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I find that hard to fathom and see it as nothing more than hopefulness when he didn't even allow his best friend to explain his actions and opposed him, despite being loved by everyone, for not agreeing with his view. As Gino said, he doesn't accept their Britannia.

Hm, then again, "best friend" is relative here. I mean, Gino didn't have that much friends, and Suzaku, even though he constantly jumped him, never let him get all that close.
So... yeah, I have hope. xD

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Well obviously... are you suggesting that punishment for breaking laws is amoral?

Uhm... yeah, when the punishment is crucifying, I dare think so.

Obviously there have also been revolts and such (Sparticus and his slave rebellion for one) but facts are that one of the strengths of the Romans was their ability to tie conquered people to them through citizenship and the granting of rights which permeated to their treatment of the slaves of conquered people. As I said that is not always the case but in general the way they view slaves especially after the republican period is not exactly how you made it out to be. (I am deliberately not touching the subject of the "pleasure slaves" as on the whole women in antiquity is... complicated...)

But they didn't only use female slaves for pleasure. And as far as I know, that was considered perfectly normal.
Roman slavery may not have been the most awful of all in the history of mankind, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to switch places with one of those slaves, either.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Nogi, your comparison of cultures and acceptance is also a rather poor one. You are saying that people get born into cultures and that they accept them because that is all that they know, which is true. But your argument runsaground when you realize that you are comparing a common citizen, someone who is not involved in the inner workings and likely quite oblvious to most things, to someone like Gino who is fully engrossed in the inner workings of the system.

I think most people in Rome didn't hesitate to punish their slaves by means we would consider morally questionable at best, so I think for making my point about Gino not being completely "evil", this example is all right. Not the best, maybe, but it works, because Code Geass itself does seem to blame the system much more than the people.

This is why I compared him and the KoR to the Schutzstaffel, because neither are just common citizens born into a nation and people who simply go with the flow of the nation, they are people who know and understand all the inner workings of the nation and willingly perpetuate them. Most Nazis and German citizens did not know about the camps, or the mass slaughterings of Jews, they were told A while the Schutzstaffel did B. How many Germans do you think heard about the various reason-less murderings of Jews on the streets by disgruntled Schutzstaffel soldiers or by orders from the top to "cut back on a ghetto's population and to redistribute the cloth for new incomers". How many Britannians do you think would have been told that Gino led a bunch of Knightmares to slaughter people seeking freedom? How many Britannians do you think know that Cornelia annihilated a ghetto of innocent people, and not just a "hive of terrorists that threatened everyone". The common Britannian likely did not know about any of the horrors that were done, that is what media is for, and we even see it in season 1 that the media is active in spinning the stories. These people do not have to accept the evil of their nation because they have no clue it exists, they are oblivious, much as most of the Germany's National Socialist German's Working Party were.

Those people simply don't see what they don't want to see. It's not the same as actually doing the killing themselves, no, but there are enough examples in history where the average citizen thought that annihilating the "enemy" or enslaving "inferior" people was awesome.
Which is why I don't think that the average Britannian would have minded innocent "Elevens" dying for their nation all that much. Charles' speeches said it all.

This is where the comparison between the Schutzstaffel and KoR comes in, you can throw in Cornelia and even Clovis into the mix if you want, because they fully understood how the system worked, mass killings, racial oppression, and so on, and perpetuated it with no signs of regret or morality. To them, the people that they oppressed were simply targets waiting to be shot in the case of a revolt.

I think comparing any of the characters to the Schutzstaffel is pushing it, but I especially disagree about Clovis.
He may not have cared about innocent people dying anymore after three years in Area Eleven, but I also doubt he supported the system.
Before he came to Japan, he had other plans than Cornelia, who told him to "leave his feelings out of this" and just bring to heel whoever resists. He also didn't seem very prejudiced against "Numbers" in the Sound Drama (except maybe that they "let Lelouch die", but he seemed to have been past that already), and simply underestimated the system when he made his plans.
He became quite the bastard, but not because he thought Britannia was awesome, but because he abandoned all his morals and "kindness" along the way.

The Schutzstaffel were butchers that killed to keep disidents, jews, and every other group that the Nazi's disagreed with, in check and under its heel. Utterly no different from what the KoR do regularly, what Gino is shown doing and suggesting, and what Cornelia is shown doing. The Schutzstaffel are by all standards considered an abomination of a group and many people consider them downright evil people, to the very core, because they accepted the job of slaughterers of people who simply did not want to live under someone's heel. It is these people that were, at the end of WWII, tried for various warcrimes, crimes against humanity, and most who were detained (and that did not flee) were executed.

The KoR, however, weren't executed, and I think that's because the staff didn't see them as the same as the people you are talking about.
To me, the ending means that all the characters left alive were capable of changing, and even if you don't think that's very believable, I don't have a problem with it except that it came out of nowhere in many case due to a lack of screentime.

The KoR are no different, and there is nothing to distinguish Gino from the group, he is a slaughterer just like the rest of them. A man who willingly kills and tramples people to perpetuate his own idealogy, and he does it while smiling. There is no "being born into the system" for these people because they had at every oppurtunity the chance to realize (even if its just morally) that what they were doing may have been wrong, but it never crossed any of their minds. You don't see any of them ever contemplating the blood on their hands nor do they even give more than a seconds thought to slaughtering civilians if it quells an uprising.

People who do not even get the sense of "this might be wrong", enjoy doing it, and willingly do it, are generally called psychopaths. People aren't conditioned into this, unless they go through rigerous desensitization training (which I highly doubt Gino ever did), they are born like this and they are generally called genuinely evil people, or at the very least completely amoral.

So maybe Gino was born a bit "psycho". But I still don't think he is a bad person at heart - he just has less trouble killing someone if he thinks it is justified than most people. That's a bit disturbing, yes, but after Zero Requiem, he should be able to think about what is right and wrong and find a better path.
That's what the ending was about, after all.
And really, Kallen being ready to kill her friends if they found out about her connection to the Black Knights isn't exactly "normal", either. It's a result of what happened to her and what she believed in. Of course she's still a much "better" person than Gino, but we don't know enough about what went on inside his head to say if there was a time when he had trouble taking lives.

Did you ever wonder why Gino, Luciano, Bismark, Anya, and so on, were in the same unit? Because they are all psychopaths or completely emotionless people, and fanatically loyal. People you work with generally tend to be a reflection on your own character, Gino works with people like Luciano and Bismark, they show us that he is not that different from them, even if he may not be as bad as them. When Suzaku was with them, he was also a lunatic who did not, despite all that his character stood for, give second chances. He killed mercilessly and he managed to earn the title of Shinigami, a title not easily earned in only one year. These are not people who are just born into the system, these are people who fully understand and support said system and are as corrupt and vile as the system itself.

Yeah, they were all bastards more than once. But that doesn't necessarily mean they were lost cases.

Gino may not be a demonite like Luciano, but he is an amoral man within an evil organization, that has the sole purpose of controlling the world and keeping nations under-heel. And he is fully aware and accepting of that fact. And like I said, in any realistic conclusion, Gino would have been tried for countless warcrimes and executed. You cannot brush away who the man is, and there is nothing in the show that even shows that he has left that behind (which would be nigh impossible given how fanatically loyal he was to begin with).

I agree that Gino isn't the Easter Bunny. But the whole point of the ending of Code Geass seemed to be that most citizens and all the "important" people left alive were able to change under the right circumstances.
Again, this might not work very well in real life, but I didn't mind it at all in Code Geass, except for the fact that it was all much too rushed.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Hm, then again, "best friend" is relative here. I mean, Gino didn't have that much friends, and Suzaku, even though he constantly jumped him, never let him get all that close.
So... yeah, I have hope. xD

That would, if anything, make his first best friend the most important and indicative of how he'd act towards others. It is his first, when he is at his most gullible/vulnerable/etc, it is often said that a person's first relationship with people is usually a showing of how they will act in the future and in general. It's your basis.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I think most people in Rome didn't hesitate to punish their slaves by means we would consider morally questionable at best, so I think for making my point about Gino not being completely "evil", this example is all right. Not the best, maybe, but it works, because Code Geass itself does seem to blame the system much more than the people.

Your average Roman citizen either did not have slaves, or had indentured servants, we know this through historical records. Your average Roman citizen also didn't hesitate to punish their children and family on equal levels as their slaves, this is also pretty well known historically. Slaves in Rome were not treated inhumanly and their punishments were regularly on the same level as anyone else. So again this example falls through because, for the last time, Gino is not your average citizen with no idea of the real interworkings of the system. Which is why I quote for a you much better example in comparing the Britannians to the Germans.

Further the means we may consider morally questionable for Romans, are anything but questionable for Gino and the KoR, they are downright abominable. And the system cannot exist without people perpetuating it, Gino and the KoR are those responsible for the growth and strength of the system. You do not just blame the system, ever, you also blame the people supporting and pushing forward that system. Same as with the Nazi's, people don't just blame Hitler, they blame all the lunatics who supported him and his genocide.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Those people simply don't see what they don't want to see. It's not the same as actually doing the killing themselves, no, but there are enough examples in history where the average citizen thought that annihilating the "enemy" or enslaving "inferior" people was awesome.
Which is why I don't think that the average Britannian would have minded innocent "Elevens" dying for their nation all that much. Charles' speeches said it all.

You should certainly list to me more than zero examples of where, in a time of conquest, a nation of people were perfectly happy and vocal that their government should annihilate citizens and civilians for the sake of keeping them quiet. The Romans did no such thing, in fact unlike the Britannians, Romans did not just kill indiscriminantely. Once a war was won, the people were absorbed into the system either as slaves or freemen, all based on what they offered and how they dealt with the merging of the cultures. Some nations weren't even touched, the Roman's conquered them and then left them to their own devices. In opposition, when Britannia captured an area it destroyed it culture, nation, and government body and installed its own noble to oversee and oppress the area. The best thing that Elevens had or anyone in the AU timeline of CG was noble britannian which made them like second class working cattle, equivalent to the Roman slaves in some ways but also not. The NB were treated like garbage, and had nothing to aspire to past that. Whereas Roman slaves could go on to become equals to their patrons.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I think comparing any of the characters to the Schutzstaffel is pushing it, but I especially disagree about Clovis.
He may not have cared about innocent people dying anymore after three years in Area Eleven, but I also doubt he supported the system.
Before he came to Japan, he had other plans than Cornelia, who told him to "leave his feelings out of this" and just bring to heel whoever resists. He also didn't seem very prejudiced against "Numbers" in the Sound Drama (except maybe that they "let Lelouch die", but he seemed to have been past that already), and simply underestimated the system when he made his plans.
He became quite the bastard, but not because he thought Britannia was awesome, but because he abandoned all his morals and "kindness" along the way and became indifferent to almost everything.

You just helped me make my point, Clovis had to abandon his ideals to become what he became. The KoR and Cornelia, on the otherhand, are never shown to have had those ideals. As I said they were amoral. Clovis is a perfect example of someone losing themselves in the system when plans fall through. The KoR and Cornelia are perfect example of people who believed in and perpetuated the system of their own amoral choice and desire.

So yes, Clovis is incomparable to the KoR, but you served in making my point. Clovis is driven out of a sense of failure and a vendetta, the KoR and Cornelia are driven by pure fascism and amoral mentality.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

The KoR, however, weren't executed, and I think that's because the staff didn't see them as the same as the people you are talking about.
To me, the ending means that all the characters left alive were capable of change, and even if you don't think that's very believable, I don't have a problem with it except that it came out of nowhere in many case due to a lack of screentime.

Oh come on. Gino was kept alive through things that were killing unnamed machines regularly. His mecha is cut in half but doesn't explode, any other mecha that was cut in half (for instance todoh's one episode prior) blows up almost instantly. The man falls from god knows what height but isn't bothered at all. Every single other KoR was killed, but Gino and Anya lived. And believe me it has nothing to do with them being better people or more deserving of some second chance, it is just fanservice pure and simple.

It is just putting far to much faith and optimism in the writers when these characters never showed change. They are extreme fascists. This is what I chock up to a completely assenine epilogue where the staff didn't even know what to do but give you a stupidly happy, unrealistic ending.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

So maybe Gino was born a bit "psycho". But I still don't think he is a bad person at heart - he just has less trouble killing someone if he thinks it is justified than most people. That's a bit disturbing, yes, but after Zero Requiem, he should be able to think about what is right and wrong and find a better path.
That's what the ending was about, after all.
And really, Kallen being ready to kill her friends if they found out about her connection to the Black Knights isn't exactly "normal", either. It's a result of what happened to her and what she believed in. Of course she's still a much "better" person than Gino, but we don't know enough about what went on inside his head to say if there was a time when he had trouble taking lives.

If he was born a psychopath, then he is a psychopath. So I do not see how you can say he can find a better path when he neither looked for one through the course of the show, or showed any problems with killing people. (And there is never a justification for killing civilians. Look at what he says in the show, its not "we'll be justified to kill them" he says "We'll have the wonderful pretext to purge them". The man is a pure blood psychopath who kills at the slightest excuse.)

The ending was also completely unrealistic and gave people idiotic blank slates. You can't say the retardation that is the epilogue, with all its nonsense, as a support to something. No sane world would make Ougi a prime-minister, or have three loli's in charge.

Kallen is shown explicitly regretting killing people.

Gino is shown smiling and waiting for a "wonderful pretext" to purge people.

The comparison would poke out a person's eyes.

You are being far to arbitrarily forgiving of Gino. You are making arguments that are based on nothing but baseless optimism. If that is how it will be then I want you to tell me why Bismark had to die, or why the other KoR had to die, other than Luciano. Bismark said he hated wars, that sounds like a plus compared to Gino's shown desire to fight people. The blonde KoR-girl was outraged by the Emperor's lack of caring and questioned him on it. All these characters were killed right where Gino mostlikely should have been killed because, even for all their lack of characterization, they are at worst his equals.

I understand you arguing for Clovis because you have something to go on, but your arguments for Gino have utterly nothing to go by other than "I think".

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Yeah, they were all bastards more than once. But that doesn't necessarily mean they were lost cases.

Then, again I ask, what justification is there for Gino to survive but not the other KoR who were killed? Its fanservice at its purest form.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I agree that Gino isn't the Easter Bunny. But the whole point of the ending of Code Geass seemed to be that most citizens and all the "important" people left alive were able to change under the right circumstances.
Again, this might not work very well in real life, but I didn't mind it at all in Code Geass, except for the fact that it was much too rushed.

But where do you get this idea about change? The characters that survived never changed through the course of the show barring a small handful. What change is Viletta going to make? Be less of a selfish bigot? Fair enough. What change is Anya going to make? Suddenly gain emotions and start caring? Unlikely. What about Jeremiah? The man doesn't give a ratsass about changing. Gino? He's going to stop killing civilians? Probably because that would really get him killed. Nina? Maybe she'll stop hating Elevens (unlikely). Why didn't some other characters survive that could have also just as easily change as Gino? Why did the other KoR get axed? Why is Colores dead? He's the same as the KoR. The ending is completely arbitrary in who its keeps alive, and when that happens, its pretty much 100% fanservice reasons for why someone is alive.

There is simply nothing to distinguish Gino from the other KoR (excluding Luciano) and there is everything to distinguish (and I am surprised I am saying this) him from Viletta, who actually shows a change in character and can be some what believed in the ending.

Can't we just agree that the only reason he survived is because of his fanservice cash cow? Because that is the only way you are going to explain how he survived things that killed everyone else. Blatant plot armor to keep him around without reason.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Really though, I must wonder how the hell he could have changed so much when earlier, he was so anti-war.

I guess it was his usual rationalization tied to his belief of changing the system from within via working his way up.

[bladeofdarkness]

he wanted to become KoO so he can rule japan
and that takes achivements
and since he got INTO the KoR by selling out his best friend to the emperor
who cares about other countries