(L) Monogatari Series Light Novel discussion

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

And here's my review.

Spoiler for Koimonogatari:

I guess some people were looking forward to this book because it was supposed to show Araragi's and, most importantly, Senjougahara's fate (which by the way was already sealed by Hanamonogatari). As the series is expected to have three more books and this won't be the final book of the series anymore, people may look down on Koi.

I personally guessed this book would be about Senjougahara asking Kaiki some help for the fight against Nadeko. This is indeed what happened. What I didn't predict was that this book would have had Kaiki as the storyteller and Senjougahara as the supporting character, and not the reverse. Certainly the troll factor runs high in the preface, as Kaiki tell us to don't trust what people says: "at the end of the book it could be even revealed I was Senjougahara Hitagi all along".

On the other hand, with this incipit it was clear that Kaiki would have solved Nadeko's problem. I was very hyped up for the Nadeko fight, and I won't deny this cop out was a let down. Never trust Nisio for a big fight, the man just cannot do them. I must also say Kaiki was not exactly first on my list of characters I would like to see more of. In this sense for example Onimonogatari, which explores the past of Kissshot, had me interested more. Whereas Oni was bittersweet, Koi was reaping what one sow.

This however doesn't detract from the book's objective merits. Koimonogatari has solid writing without the flaws that I found in some other books. In particular, Kaiki has plenty of varied interactions with the other characters; the three main characters, Kaiki, Senjougahara and Nadeko, all got plenty of chara development and a sense of closure by the end of the book; in addition to the little mystery belonging this specific book, there are several important hints about the whole picture.

I don't know if Kaiki was originally planned to be turned into this sort of good guy. Still, it was a refreshing to see his point of view. Kaiki has the advantage of being an "outsider" (the age gap also plays a part in this), so he is able to openly criticize other characters. In fact, he even manages to talk down Senjougahara, quite a feat. His monologues make him able to hold a sort of mental interaction with characters otherwise not present. In particular, we get some information about Oshino, to whom Kaiki seems to even hold an inferiority complex. Araragi is also present a lot in Kaiki's mind, especially in relation to Senjougahara.

Although it was natural her inventiveness couldn't beat a swindler (her master, no less), Senjougahara shows more and more vulnerabilities. I think she is eventually ready to get some more spotlight again for the final three books, though I wouldn't count it on Nisio. By the way, Nisio is also accomodating to the anime, he states that Senjougahara looks slightly different from the picture Kaiki sees in Nise.

The character of Nadeko is here completed. She managed to live, but I think this is the last we will see of her. She is stupid and cute, but she has also a fearful side when she goes mad.

Hanekawa appears briefly, but she is still the only character in the book who really manages to overwhelm Kaiki. By dealing with Kaiki she got the short end of the stick economically, but she agreed he has been fair (not true, he ripped you off!).

Araragi and Ononoki appear, but they don't have time to say something meaningful.

Possibly Nisio went too far in wanting to change the readers' opinion of the characters, but this book is still a very nice addition to the series with its own peculiar tone.

Let me ask you this then. Does the scene where Nadeko is waiting in the shrine and Senjou, Araragi and grown up Shinobu are walking towards her appear in the novel?

EDIT: Actually now that I've re-read the last chapter it seems like it's just one giant lie. It seems the whole thing is just Nadeko's guess at what "could" happen in March. However as we know now the whole ordeal ended before March even came.

The truth is although this book is a giant troll, it's not like Nisio didn't give us clues.

I mean Kaiki not being as bad was sorta touched upon in Kabuki when we found out he helped out in fighting Kissshot X.
Ougi having hidden motives was obvious
Kanbaru mentioned something happened on graduation day but at the same time it didn't seem like what happened with Nadeko was something Araragi or Senjou would just tell Kanbaru

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by omimon

Let me ask you this then. Does the scene where Nadeko is waiting in the shrine and Senjou, Araragi and grown up Shinobu are walking towards her appear in the novel?

In Koi you mean? No. That scene in Otori was called a "preview". The preview lied.

Spoiler for Kissshot:

Originally Posted by Romanticide

Thanks, though i didn't ask about...that part specifically, and it sounds like a lie to me too.

It was definitively a lie because when Araragi asked her to kiss she was bashful

The only people i can see her not refusing are Koyomi and maybe the First depending on what exactly she feels for them. Her "not remembering" his name is odd, unless she made herself forget it.

It seems Kissshot has tampered with her own memory many times over the years, so it is not that weird she doesn't remember his name It was mostly chance the fact she turned him into a vampire.

Also, what age do you think she was turned into a vampire at? And where's that line again?

It was never stated anywhere, although IIRC she looks like she's in her late twenties.

[omimon]

You know what would be awesome? If Araragi time travels again but this time to around 600 years ago and it turns out he was the one who turned Kissshot into a vampire.

It'll be like it turns out she was a sickly human and in order to survive she had to be turned into a vampire in order to live.

[Romanticide]

Originally Posted by omimon

You know what would be awesome? If Araragi time travels again but this time to around 600 years ago and it turns out he was the one who turned Kissshot into a vampire.

It'll be like it turns out she was a sickly human and in order to survive she had to be turned into a vampire in order to live.

Well, the sickly human part sounds interesting, like maybe she had tuberculosis and eating humans was the only difficult part or something. I don't know how Koyomi turning her as a human would go though, it seems interesting though i always thought whoever turned her must have been killed or something, she never mentions them.

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Spoiler for Kissshot:

It was definitively a lie because when Araragi asked her to kiss she was bashful
It seems Kissshot has tampered with her own memory many times over the years, so it is not that weird she doesn't remember his name It was mostly chance the fact she turned him into a vampire.
It was never stated anywhere, although IIRC she looks like she's in her late twenties.

Spoiler for Kissshot:

She sure gets flustered -- she even fiddled with her hair, i wonder how many kisses she's gotten before Koyomi. Unless that was just her 8-year old self's reaction? Didn't she say she was lonely too, before turning him? I always thought she felt something a bit more for him, she kept Kokorowatari when i really don't think she needs it, and she attained his nickname, though she seemed displeased in Kizu about being called that, and i got the vibe that she might have had a crush on him. Oh, i forgot about that, she's from a aristocratic family, right? I'd like to know more about her human life too.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by omimon

I mean Kaiki not being as bad was sorta touched upon in Kabuki when we found out he helped out in fighting Kissshot X.

Even in Nise2 he was briefly portrayed in a somewhat positive light at the end of the book.

Spoiler for Nise:

Kagenui says that to Kaiki the fake has some worth in itself, as it strives to be real and may even surpass it.

Then there was that time when Gaen wanted him to help, and Hana.

Kanbaru mentioned something happened on graduation day but at the same time it didn't seem like what happened with Nadeko was something Araragi or Senjou would just tell Kanbaru

IIRC on graduation day Araragi just supplicated the teachers. The other time, when Araragi asked for her help, there was blood and deathmatches though.

Originally Posted by omimon

You know what would be awesome? If Araragi time travels again but this time to around 600 years ago and it turns out he was the one who turned Kissshot into a vampire.

It'll be like it turns out she was a sickly human and in order to survive she had to be turned into a vampire in order to live.

I don't think it would work, Araragi is not the type to turn another one into a vampire, that is I don't think he has the ability, he's a pseudo-vampire that don't even suck other people's blood. Besides,

Spoiler for Kabukimonogatari:

It's not time travel, it's dimensional travel

[Aleister]

Wow, there's a lot more of Senjougahara than I would have guessed. And thanks for the review of course.

But about these:

Spoiler for koi:

Araragi is also present a lot in Kaiki's mind, especially in relation to Senjougahara.

Although it was natural her inventiveness couldn't beat a swindler (her master, no less), Senjougahara shows more and more vulnerabilities.

I'd like to know what Kaiki thinks about him and what do you mean by ''master'' and ''vulnerability''?

Spoiler for koi:

Well, I guess that since Kaiki is twice her age and has a lot more xp, it's normal she wouldn't be able to get the upper hand, but specifics about her character development are greatly appreciated.

*sigh* Too hooked on her for my own good...

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Aleister

I'd like to know what Kaiki thinks about him and what do you mean by ''master'' and ''vulnerability''?

Spoiler for Koimonogatari:

Kaiki often comments in his mind "What are you doing, Araragi?". For example Nadeko tells Kaiki Araragi looked very happy when she wore a swimsuit. "What are you doing Araragi? I'm glad I'm pretending not to know him". Other times while talking with Senjougahara he is like "What are you doing Araragi? You call this rehabilitation? You are not helping this girl enough".

Master as in master and disciple. Then again it was not a formal relationship, you don't have to take the word literally. It was more something Senjougahara learned just by simply associating with Kaiki.

When Kaiki told her his plan full of confidence and Sejougahara began to think she and Araragi were really safe, Senjougahara cried and could but keep thanking Kaiki. She shows a more vulnerable side here and there.

[Aleister]

Senjougahara crying... No matter how many times I read that, it just doesn't click.
I guess I'm just too used to the cold her.

Spoiler for koi:

So Kaiki doesn't think Araragi isn't helping her enough? There could be a future plotline there. But Araragi and Hitagi are what, 15, 16? Still a long road...
Also, Hitagi's haircut and dere-ing are in Nisemonogatari, if I'm not getting my books confused. Maybe watching the change in 'real-time' will make more sense to me.

Thing is, the future is already somewhat set in stone (well, Nisio grade stone anyway) but the path is full of surprises.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Aleister

Senjougahara crying... No matter how many times I read that, it just doesn't click.
I guess I'm just too used to the cold her.

Spoiler for koi:

So Kaiki doesn't think Araragi isn't helping her enough? There could be a future plotline there. But Araragi and Hitagi are what, 15, 16? Still a long road...
Also, Hitagi's haircut and dere-ing are in Nisemonogatari, if I'm not getting my books confused. Maybe watching the change in 'real-time' will make more sense to me.

Thing is, the future is already somewhat set in stone (well, Nisio grade stone anyway) but the path is full of surprises.

18 I believe.

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by omimon

18 I believe.

Yeah, if she and Araragi were in college in hana, then my math was really screwed up.

Now that I remember, she also cried in Hitagi Crab... but still.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Aleister

Senjougahara crying... No matter how many times I read that, it just doesn't click.

She also cried in Nekomonogatari White.

Spoiler for koi:

So Kaiki doesn't think Araragi isn't helping her enough? There could be a future plotline there. But Araragi and Hitagi are what, 15, 16? Still a long road...
Also, Hitagi's haircut and dere-ing are in Nisemonogatari, if I'm not getting my books confused. Maybe watching the change in 'real-time' will make more sense to me.

I seriously doubt there will be a plotline about that There is already plenty of plot-related things to write about.

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

She also cried in Nekomonogatari White.
I seriously doubt there will be a plotline about that There is already plenty of plot-related things to write about.

I doubt it would be a part of the main point, but ever since Bake, it's been one chapter or one story or one kai (kaii?) per book, right? Still space for character development.

My personal Senjougahara obsession aside, how's Kanbaru's development (man, did she look HOT in Nise's trailers), other than Hana? And do the fire sisters appear without it being just a cameo feeling after Nise?

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Aleister

I doubt it would be a part of the main point, but ever since Bake, it's been one chapter or one story or one kai (kaii?) per book, right? Still space for character development.

Time will tell.

My personal Senjougahara obsession aside, how's Kanbaru's development (man, did she look HOT in Nise's trailers), other than Hana? And do the fire sisters appear without it being just a cameo feeling after Nise?

IIRC after Nise and outside Hana Kanbaru just got a cameo in Nekomonogatari White. There has been some kind of big accident she was involved with, but we still have to hear what it was about.

There is plenty of Fire Sisters.
There are 80 pages of Tsukihi in Nekomonogatari Black. EDIT: Plus Araragi has another conversation with Karen and Tsukihi once.
A decent dose of Karen and Tsukihi in Nekomonogatari White.
I had to check Hana because I didn't remember well, but there's some Karen. Also we are told the Fire Sisters broke up because Karen, who is one year older than Tsukihi, got to high school, while Tsukihi is still in middle school. Tsukihi is now Moon Fire, while Karen settled down.
Some Tsukihi in Otorimonogatari.

Now that I think about it, all in all there is more Fire Sisters than Senjougahara

[Candyshark]

What do sisters actually bring to story besides the "toothbrush" omimon gushes over and brother complex?

[taichi-kun]

Emm why did they name this last novel "Hitagi end" ?

[NaweG]

Originally Posted by taichi-kun

Emm why did they name this last novel "Hitagi end" ?

Possibly like a VN where the different endings are named based on the character they end up with? Given how Nisio has already played with alternate timelines this seems like a reasonable possibility

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Candyshark

What do sisters actually bring to story besides the "toothbrush" omimon gushes over and brother complex?

Other than brother complex Tsukihi was the one who cuts Nadeko's bangs which kinda lead to her finally snapping and going berserk.

Originally Posted by taichi-kun

Emm why did they name this last novel "Hitagi end" ?

Some people here have guessed that the end meant the end of Nadeko's love and also the end of Hitagi's relations with Kaiki.

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by omimon

Some people here have guessed that the end meant the end of Nadeko's love and also the end of Hitagi's relations with Kaiki.

I wish. Unless Senjougahara and Araragi find something on the level of a god, there's no reason for Kaiki to step in the main portion of the story. And maybe even if they do come across one, there will be a epic battle. Or maybe just more trolling.

BTW, Omimon, is 'toothbrush' in Bee or Phoenix?

Ya know, this might be my impression of the character, and since I haven't even seen Kaiki's character design, I can't help but compare him to Hazama.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Aleister

I wish. Unless Senjougahara and Araragi find something on the level of a god, there's no reason for Kaiki to step in the main portion of the story. And maybe even if they do come across one, there will be a epic battle. Or maybe just more trolling.

BTW, Omimon, is 'toothbrush' in Bee or Phoenix?

Ya know, this might be my impression of the character, and since I haven't even seen Kaiki's character design, I can't help but compare him to Hazama.

Ahh...you're confusing me. They did find something on the level of a god and Kaiki did step into the main portion of the story.

Toothbrush is in Phoenix and Kaiki's design is out already. Looks like someone haven't been catching up.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Candyshark

What do sisters actually bring to story besides the "toothbrush" omimon gushes over and brother complex?

They are on the sidelines, but they are still as helpful as every other character. Besides what Omimon says about Otori, in Nekomonogatari White Tsukihi and Karen help Hanekawa to come up to a solution to the mystery, and in Hana Karen gives useful info to Kanbaru. Even in Nekomonogatari Black as interlocutors they help Araragi expressing his themes.

Originally Posted by taichi-kun

Emm why did they name this last novel "Hitagi end" ?

This is a big mystery

The simple fact is that this novel was once announced to be the last, although I think Nisio had the intention of writing some spin-offs after that. Possibly he now wants to do everything within the main series, anyway the title stuck, even though it is meaningless at this point.

Btw, Kaiki's character design was finalized in the official site. Click here and then click on the last symbol on the right, the clover.