2012-08-24, 09:56 | Link #30161 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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And besides Battler isn't having a deją-vu, he remembers that he or rather "his past self" defintely has been in a similar place before. That's not how deją-vu work. I have no experience whatsoever of externally fabricated memories nor personally nor by what I've heard by others and not even by rumors, if I exclude fictional stories. The situation you describe, like being exposed to photographs or to stories do not really work, unless he forgets that he has been exposed to them, therefore only leaving the option "I must have experienced this firsthand". Because if he remembers that he's been exposed to them (and he should unless you pull a hypnosis) then from his perspective there is no reason to think those are his real memories rather than something he's been told. Unless of course he is crazy, demented, mentally unstable or whatever to begin with. In which case his perspective hardly matters. He could as well believe he's Napoleon without any reason. Quote:
That's not "some reason". The voice clearly sounds like that of a young man. Even Genji when questioned says so.
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2012-08-24, 10:08 | Link #30162 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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"Good point. Maybe Genji told Yasu that Natsuhi never even knew/remember the gender of the baby."
I see , Something like this. "Before the cliff accident , Natsuhi was forced to adopt you , thats why she never liked you during those three days, she didn't even bother to ask what gender the child was, trully what a horrible person. but nobody would ever think ,that something like that would have happened ,a true irony , same fate as your mother. It indeed was a horrible accident" And Knox can't slice this theory up , because story did not confirm the gender , in other words It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard. , So a place for Yasu to be Female exists and I'm one of those people who believe this . XD
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2012-08-24, 10:16 | Link #30163 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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I always would've thought that Natsuhi just forgot about the babies physical form since as you say that if it was only 3 days most likely the servants changed Yasu's diaper thus Natsuhi never would've seen or cared since she said she would always throw it on a servant when Yasu would cry then she pushed them off the cliff so if anything Natsuhi never knew the babies sex in the first place and can't really argue about Yasu saying she is a male because she would have no proof to deny that claim.
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2012-08-24, 10:31 | Link #30164 | ||
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
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"But it's a bit hard to figure out much about a person just by their voice over the phone... It sounded like a young man, but it might actually be a middle school-aged boy or an adult man whose voice still hadn't deepened. No wait, it might be too soon even to be sure that this is a male." Quote:
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2012-08-24, 10:33 | Link #30165 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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"And from where he knows that? It's not like he was stalking Natsuhi all the time to be so sure. "
Ok, I Can't counter this one without tweasting it too much. I'll just go with Natsuhi forgot the Gender because she didnt care. It was 19 years after all
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2012-08-24, 10:38 | Link #30166 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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The brain has problems like this all the time. The brain of someone with Magic Fictional Amnesia is probably all kinds of messed up in terms of perception, memory, and vague sensation. If you are that person, it would be impossible to be sure that you're actually remembering a thing you've seen since you aren't sure if the act of seeing it was even a thing that really happened. Especially if the last time you could have physically seen that thing (if you ever did) was decades and decades in the past, such that it would be subject to the general ravages of time on memories. I mean look at it the other way: Assume Battler didn't lose his memory, but also didn't go to the mansion for 50 years and one day walks into a room that appears to look just like the entrance hall. Do you think he's likely to think it's an exact replica of it? Possibly, possibly not. Let's say he remembers the house decently well and declares that this room is an exact copy. Do you think he'd notice if, say, a door were slightly off, or even if one were entirely absent that should have been there in an exact copy? Psychology says he is almost certain to not notice certain details being wrong, because his vague memories will be reinforced with self-assurance that he's looking at the right thing and his memories will actually update themselves accordingly. In fact, if you don't tell him that you took a door out of the hallway on purpose, he'll likely start "remembering" in the future that there wasn't a door there. And this is a person who doesn't have any trauma-induced memory loss. Quote:
Vivid memories are harder, but it's certainly possible over a long period of time. Some people have conjured vivid memories of things like alien abductions, and while those memories - which are factually false - were not initially particularly strong, long-term belief that those memories were true leads people to eventually produce extremely strong and consistent stories about the "events" which at least sound plausible to a person open to the possibility that such events could happen. Even when they provably didn't, such as physical evidence that a person was not at the location they said they were when they were "abducted." If you can't prove the events didn't happen (their whereabouts that night can't be proven), it gets even harder to convince someone that what their memory tells them so clearly occurred actually didn't. Even though we know that it in fact didn't. And again, there is no discernible difference whatsoever between forgetting you saw a picture of something and remembering that you saw the picture later and accidentally leading yourself to believe you saw a picture in the past and just forgot about it because circumstances led you to believe that's where your familiarity derives. Psychologically, you cannot tell that was the case off your memory alone. And the most vivid memories are often the ones you can't trust, except when you can.
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2012-08-25, 07:23 | Link #30167 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Excuse me Renall but where do you get your facts from?
Just saying that thinking you remember you've been somewhere before and actually remembering you've been somewhere before is the same thing is a blatant falsity. From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deja_vu Déją vu, from French, literally "already seen", is the phenomenon of having the strong sensation that an event or experience currently being experienced has been experienced in the past. E deja vu is just that, a sensation. You don't actually remember a damn thing, in fact that's the very problem of deja-vu lies on the discrepancy with your feeling of remembering while not actually finding any memory to confirm it. All the experiences of deja-vu I've experienced were like that. Never once it happened to me to actually remember something that I thought I wasn't supposed to remember. If Tohya says "I remember I was here" then that's simply not a deja-vu. It can't be, by defintion. All the rest that you said just sounds like bogus psychology from someone that doesn't quite understand how the brain works. At any rate the main problem here is that you're using the fact of the unreliability of human memory (which you are greatly exaggerating) as a way to state that memory can be easily artificially manipulated against the will of the subject with the precision and to the extent of Tohya's case. You can't really use X as a way to prove Y here. There's no logical relation.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-08-25 at 07:58. |
2012-08-25, 12:31 | Link #30168 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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It works with normal people too, although it requires more subtlety. But, hey, if your victim has amnesia (no identity to begin with), is completely dependent upon you and cut off from the rest of the world for several decades, then you may as well consider his identity to be entirely in your control. http://old.post-gazette.com/healthsc...oods0217p5.asp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome http://memoryillusions.wordpress.com...es-part-three/ |
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2012-08-26, 07:55 | Link #30169 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Your "proof" are all highly controversial stuff.
Just by reading the article about the False memory syndrome in its entirety you get the pciture of it. It turns out that this "syndrome" is mostly advocated by attorneys trying to defend their clients against witnesses. No doubt they have quite a personal interest in believing in this theory and in inflating its actual relevance. Especially in a judicial system where you can only convict a criminal beyond any reasonable doubt. Note that this is mainly used in sexual abuse cases in childhood (as the wiki article reports), that is against witnesses whose mind is weak and whose memories are less reliable. The literature and scientific studies debunking the alleged frequency of the false memory syndrome is extremely vast: Spoiler for articles:
Then let's just say that there are only a selected number of individuals who can actually be manipulated effectively. In which case I guess you can still win the argument by claiming that Tohya is one of those individuals, which also happens to be similar enough to Battler. But since this theory already requires to dismiss as lies many of the flashback scenes we have seen among Ikuko and Tohya, why would this theory be more plausible than one that simply claims that the Tohya that Ange saw was just a hired actor?
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2012-08-26, 09:41 | Link #30170 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Not my word. At best I'd call it "evidence". You can't ever prove this kind of shit one way or the other anyway.
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Because there's no motive for Ikuko to do that. |
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2012-08-26, 10:31 | Link #30171 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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But even accepting that, there's a lot more to question. For example what about Battler claiming he remembered he was 18 years old? Just another coincidence? Then what about the fact that Tohya was a speed reader? What about the fact that Tohya was knowledgeable about mystery novels? What about the fact he turned out to have great ideas for writing mystery novels? Lastly are the sudden attacks of memory recover experienced by Tohya really compatible with the theory of implanted memories? Is it normal that he doesn't consider those memories as his own? Don't all the research data anout implanted memories that you mentioned suggest the opposite? Quote:
Wait a second. She has a motive to bring a guy that she brainwashed in believing he is Battler in front of Ange, but not to simply hire a man to pose as him? Explain.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-08-26 at 10:46. |
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2012-08-26, 12:08 | Link #30172 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I apologize for placing so many answer under the spoiler tag but otherwise this message would have been too long (*sighs* why when I'm away everyone becomes so talktive? ;_; )
Spoiler for Replies to Kealym:
Spoiler for Replies to Asuka0NK:
Spoiler for Replies to Wanderer:
Spoiler for Replies to GuestSpeaker:
Spoiler for Replies to tempteste:
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Also it was explained more than once that Natsuhi's disgust for the child was due to her inability to have one on her own and the way Kizno presented that kid to her. Spoiler for Replies to Jan-Poo:
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2012-08-26, 13:02 | Link #30173 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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"We've a problem. Who ever told Battler all this story about the kid fallen from a cliff?
Also it was explained more than once that Natsuhi's disgust for the child was due to her inability to have one on her own and the way Kizno presented that kid to her." Yeah It was stated in the novel but what if there was anathor reason? Sure Natsuhi hates the child but killing it? She really has to have damn good reason for that, not to mention the poor servant . As for Battler knowing the cliff fall ...How about this, We know that Battler is part of the group of 'Make Natsuhi Admit Kinzos death' , What if the adults told him to lie to Natsuhi ,He made up a story , which ironicly turns half real , Because Natsuhi really did something like that, DId the child ever mention about the cliff fall? , He didnt , he Just said 'What you did 19 years ago , you Murderer' , When Natsuhi Conffesed this , Battlers reactions are suspicious and he is feeling guilty, and he knows she is not the culprit because He knows that no murder never really happened. Unfortenetly Yasu turned the bomb on and poof. Well this theory is very very streched and Knox can cut it down really easly but... Give me some break lol . XDD
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2012-08-26, 14:15 | Link #30174 | |||||
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Join Date: Aug 2012
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And if Genji seriosly wanted to hide Yasu from Kinzo he would give Yasu to another family, not return back on Rokkenjima. Besides: Spoiler for -:
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2012-08-26, 14:17 | Link #30175 | ||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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She was exhasperated by the situation and the crying of the child whom she hated and she likely was very stressed and lost her head. At least so she explained it. Honestly the problem is that I don't think someone would come up with such a story just randomly. He specifically said he was her child from 19 years ago and that she killed him (I'm using male pronouns just because the caller is called the 'man from 19 years ago'). This is a bit too specific for someone who's making up a story. If the phone call had been done to an innocent person she could have easily replied she never had a kid nor was involvedin the dead of one 19 years ago and that he dialled the wrong number or contacted the wrong person. Or would assume in a joke. Plus if she were to get scared thinking she was dealing with a madman she would contact the police or tell someone. After all by the time the first call is made it was still possible to phone out of the island and Battler & Co couldn't be sure the storm would have cut comunications. If Battler wanted to scare her he would have used the classic 'I know what you did and I'm here to take revenge' which can apply to everything, he wouldn't have been so specific. A generic accusation is hard to counter as everyone surely did something that might have angered/saddened someone else. A specific accusation need to refer to facts that can be real or it'll be easily dismissed as a prank. Quote:
Facial feathures and ereditary common traits won't change regardless from the fact he's raised as Krauss' son or as Shannon, the maid. Quote:
Also Natsuhi isn't suspicious of Kanon. Quote:
By the same reasoning is possible to say that if Kinzo really only lusted after Beatrice he would recognize her 'new reincarnation' and lust after her, a problem that would be uncomplicated by the apparent fact this time they aren't father and daughter. After all if he would have no problems sleeping with his child, why shold he have problems sleeping with a maid? Quote:
I doubt Ryukishi wanted us to know it so he did his best to never give clear hints about it. Quote:
Also Battler after all showed up on Rokkenjima and Natsuhi had all the time to compare voices. Either the voice was masked so it didn't matter if it was Battler or Rudolf or Hideyoshi or she could have recognized him as soon as he showed up and spoke to her for a while. Though his dubber is used in the game, it's likely a red herring. Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-08-26 at 14:36. |
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2012-08-26, 14:21 | Link #30176 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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The adults must have known about the child , they just didnt knew if it was murdered by natsuhi, Which Battler lied about. He is perfect for this because Natsuhi does not knows his voice , because he has been absent for 6 years
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2012-08-26, 14:48 | Link #30177 | |
The True Culprit
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Miracles n' shit.
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2012-08-26, 17:07 | Link #30178 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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So I finished reading the novels three weeks ago, and I needed go somewhere and talk about it. Then this thread appeared and... yeah.
Now, there's a lot that has already been discussed, so for the sake of not being redundant and because I can't go back and read the monstruous thread since the begining, I'm just gonna take the topic in this last page and start with it. So I'll pick one of the topics floating in here... Implanted memories. Because that's weird enough. For what I can get about the thing without going back to read, you're posting a theory about how Tohya is not Ushiromiya Battler. I would take it into consideration, really, if it weren't for the implanted memory argument, because let's face it: it'd go up right there with the whole amnesia thingy in the 'asscovers/bullshit that everybody could live without' list. BUT, speaking about if its possible or not... yes. To a certain degree. It's possible even with non-brain-damaged people, and I'm telling this from experience: If Miss X doesn't have a complete/perfect recolection of what happened, say... one year ago, Mr. G can suggest 'You did Y' and Miss X can pottentialy believe it. But there's certain criteria that has to be taken in consideration: Miss X must thrust Mr. G to a certain degree, at least enough to not suspect he's lying or he couldn't have known; Y must be in character for Miss X, so she can't detect something weird ("I'd never do that!" she'd say); It has to be possible ("I've never been in Russia to begin with!" she'd say) and finally, Y can't be something unforgettable. ("I'd remember if I married you!" she'd say). Of course, this is about normal people with normal memory erosion. Spoiler for EP7 & EP8 spoil... So, is it possible for an amnesiac to get false memories through suggestion?:
Hm. Maybe I wrote too much. It's my first post here, I got carried away... Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-26 at 17:29. |
2012-08-26, 17:15 | Link #30179 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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I know this is off topic but about Tohya's hair color I don't think it caused by that being his real hair color or anything I think his hair just turned white naturally. I mean Tohya is probably 50-60 years old because he would've been 30 in 1998 and the game says decades later so he could be around that age thus why his hair has already whitened. Not to mention stress and the like.
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