Proposal: Make post counts public

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The women of the Internet are amused, but carry on with the mythology so they can do their missions in secret

Indeed. Excellent cover to hide our evil plotting.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Westlo

That's fine I guess, I assume it's something you'll get around to eventually.

I certainly hope not.

What's wrong with knowing somebody's join date? How is it possibly harmful to know that?

The anti-information bias I'm seeing on this thread is surprising to me. If you take an even moderate interest in your fellow members, it's nice to have some basic information like this, imo (and keep in mind that profiles aren't always accessible).


Clearly, my "public post counts" suggestion here was an unpopular one, and I accept that. However, I'm frankly amazed at some of the responses it has received.

"Superiority"? "Prejudicial"?! Really?

Do people honestly attach that much significance to knowing someone's post counts, or their join date?


All veteran status means is that someone has been here awhile, and hence is likely familiar with the board community and how the board operates. ANN's forums, MAL's forums, and Anime Suki all have very different feels from one another. They're all moderated differently, and their formats are wildly different. It's good to know these things, and recognize these things. And veterans can help newcomers here, so it's good for newcomers to know who the veterans are, imo.

But that's it. That's basically all I was saying.

Let me use a pro sports analogy to get that point across.

When Wayne Gretzky played his first season in the NHL, he was instantly one of the 2 or 3 best players in the entire NHL (he was arguably the best). He was already a better player than all, or almost all, the veterans. Being a newcomer to the NHL didn't make him "inferior" to veterans - Not at all. Nobody would ever suggest such a thing. Wayne was a better NHL player in his very first game than the vast majority were in their 1000th NHL game.

However, Wayne still needed to get used to life in the NHL, and that's where veterans on his own team were helpful to him. These veterans weren't anywhere near the player Wayne was, but they were still helpful in getting him acclimated to the life of a NHLer.


Likewise, you could have a newcomer to Anime Suki that gets right into writing all sorts of great posts, and basically overnight becomes one of AS' best contributors. Nonetheless, it's arguably good for that individual to know who the long-standing members of the AS community are in case he wants help in knowing which forum is the best one to put up a specific thread idea on (when I was new to AS, this is something I'd sometimes turn to veterans for help on), or in order to get advice on how the community might receive a particular discussion topic, or in order to know who to turn to if he wants to know the context behind discussions involving the history of Anime Suki.

One can argue that Moderators are fine for this, but then Moderators already have a lot of work to do, and I think needlessly adding on to that work is generally negative.


I have to echo much of what Ledgem said. And I have to say to Solace that some of us like those "bells and whistles". Those "bells and whistles" add color and distinctiveness to Anime Suki, imo. There's beauty in diversity, and hence I would say there's ugliness in scrubbing out every sign of diversity. Diversity does not mean superior or inferior, it just means diverse.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Again with the 2ch/4ch mention... and why?

I bring up the "chan" message boards because they represent a very different model of a message forum. When it comes to scrubbing user details from the posting field, those examples are about as extreme as you can get. Usenet could also be cited as being a similar example. I bring it up repeatedly because I think it's a useful contrast to make. If we decide that our current amount of information is too much, how do we decide what should be cut, or how much should be cut? What's to stop us from making some cuts today, acclimating, and then making more cuts later? What is the ultimate goal of doing this, exactly?

The underlying philosophy of statements about how such information too strongly influences people's perceptions of posts seemingly states that the post should be the absolute most important thing, and nothing should be allowed to distract from it. If you follow that line of thought, then how could the "chan" model not be the ultimate goal? User identification, avatars, account information, personal information... placing those things anywhere near a post represents a potential distraction, doesn't it?

So, long story short, I agree with Triple_R (aside from the hockey analogy, probably because I'm not Canadian ). I don't doubt that user information can alter someone's perception of a user's post, but I suspect that people are making way too much out of it. (But just in case I'm wrong, I would appreciate it if people did not read my post with a "superiority" or "snooty" tone just because of my join date. Thank you )

[Eragon]

I agree that post count should not be made visible - for reasons already mentioned.
As far as the join date goes, I don't see a problem with just letting it be. I mean its not causing any problems is it? Its not useful either but, that's ok. We aren't in a recession to be cutting down on useless things, are we?

[Triple_R]

Things like "Join Date", "age", and avatars don't tell you a lot about someone (especially since 'age' admittedly could be a lie, though I don't think most people here lie about it), but when you start to add these little pieces of information together they can create a helpful picture.

Let's say you're a huge Clannad fan, and you're interested in talking about Clannad with other people. Well, Clannad finished airing in 2009, and its subforum is now in Anime Suki's retired forum. So it's not necessarily easy to find other AS members to talk about Clannad with.

Then you see someone with a join date of 2007, a listed age of 22, and a Haruhi avatar. Neither of these things, in and of itself, makes Clannad viewership particularly likely, but together they suggest that there's a pretty good chance this person has seen Clannad. So you send that person a VM saying "Hey! I notice you like Haruhi and that you've been here awhile. I don't suppose you've seen that other great KyoAni work Clannad, have you?" And then you find out that yes, that other member has seen Clannad. Loads of great discussion takes off from there.

This is one way that knowing another member's join date can be helpful in a practical way.

[Eragon]

^No offense Triple_R but, don't you think you are putting a wee bit more importance in join date? I mean, the avi, sig and title gives you as much info as you can get without visiting the profile page of the said poster.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Eragon

^No offense Triple_R but, don't you think you are putting a wee bit more importance in join date? I mean, the avi, sig and title gives you as much info as you can get without visiting the profile page of the said poster.

Eragon-san, gomen ne but, I'm bound to disagree. Members often change their avatar, signatures and title every now and then. So its hard to determine their uhmm...character (which is more accurate to say) basing on those. Checking the profile, is far more accurate. But that doesn't mean I agree with Triple R...

Wait... does that make me Pro-Hitler?

[james0246]

Since when did this become a referendum on getting rid of join dates? Not that it necessarily matters, but join dates are not on the docket of forum improvements (for now). But, even if they were, why would it really be such a big deal? I understand the idea of potential connectivity something as simple as a join date has (undoubtedly part of the reason we will probably not do anything against the tag), but in the end avatars and signatures (especially now that you can hover over the images to get a name for the potential anime being shown), the various text you can place in either slot, and of course username matter far more than a join date in establishing identity and even credibility (and all of this matters far more than showcasing a post count, which is the epitome of superfluous and uninteresting in my opinion).

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by james0246

Since when did this become a referendum on getting rid of join dates? Not that it necessarily matters, but join dates are not on the docket of forum improvements (right now). But, even if they were, why would it really be such a big deal?

Bolded for emphasis - I feel like the questions and answers are within what you wrote just here

Originally Posted by james0246

(especially now that you can hover over the images to get a name for the potential anime being shown)

This is a neat feature that I did not know existed. Very cool. When was it implemented, and am I the only person who wasn't aware of it?

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I certainly hope not.

What's wrong with knowing somebody's join date? How is it possibly harmful to know that?

Considering westlo later said

If you're interested in a poster you click on their profile anyway....

I think he meant not having join date show under the avatar but still viewable in the user profile.

I find it understandable,you can choose to display age,location and you could choose to display your rep or not so why should join date be mandatory?
I honestly don't give a damn but if some users don't wish for their join date to be known I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to.

One can argue that Moderators are fine for this, but then Moderators already have a lot of work to do, and I think needlessly adding on to that work is generally negative.

You mean it's not already part of their work? I always assumed it was and when I first joined I always directed my questions towards them,this goes far any forums I've joined in my life.

Can you explain your Harushi example again?Because I don't see how anything other than the Harushi avatar could start off the VM conversation.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Eragon

^No offense Triple_R but, don't you think you are putting a wee bit more importance in join date?

No, I don't.

Join Date almost certainly means that a person was interested enough in anime at that specific date to be engaging in internet discussion about it. So any of the more prominent anime shows airing at the same time is likely to be a show that this person is at least familiar with.

For example, I think it's a fairly safe assumption that a person who joined Anime Suki in the Summer of 2012 is familiar with Sword Art Online, even if they're not a fan of it. It would almost be impossible for them to not be familiar with it.

Well, Clannad started airing in 2007, so a join date of 2007 coupled with a Haruhi avatar is suggestive there (admittedly, I probably shouldn't have factored age in, as join date + avatar is suggestive enough here). The Haruhi avatar suggests the person might like KyoAni properties. The join date suggests they were active in Anime Suki exactly when Clannad was airing. So there's a good chance that this individual watched Clannad.

I mean, the avi, sig and title gives you as much info as you can get without visiting the profile page of the said poster.

An avi, sig, and title can tell a fair bit, but every additional piece of information can help.

Again, I really don't get the anti-information bias I'm seeing here.

Plus, I really don't get why someone would want to hide their join date.

[Eragon]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Eragon-san, gomen ne but, I'm bound to disagree. Members often change their avatar, signatures and title every now and then. So its hard to determine their uhmm...character (which is more accurate to say) basing on those. Checking the profile, is far more accurate. But that doesn't mean I agree with Triple R...

Wait... does that make me Pro-Hitler?

Oi, don't use 'san', makes me sound old
And I don't see a problem with changing avi's and sig's. It's just natural that someone won't keep just one avi/sig throughout his/her stay. Still, it gives a general impression of what he/she likes (atm or in general).

[bigdeal000]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

This is a neat feature that I did not know existed. Very cool. When was it implemented, and am I the only person who wasn't aware of it?

I had no idea either. I thought you have to visit their profile to see the info there. But most of the time that info is outdated as people don't really care about it, or some people don't write it anyway. Is there a way to be more aware of all this stuff? (like some animesuki tricks thread or something?)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by totoum

I find it understandable,you can choose to display age,location and you could choose to display your rep or not so why should join date be mandatory?

I'm fine with members having an option to hide their join date. But I would prefer the default setting to be "shown" because I can think of some scenarios in which knowing other member's join dates could be useful.

Again, it's not about any of this superior/inferior silliness, but rather about trying to get a clearer picture of one's fellow members in general.

Can you explain your Harushi example again?Because I don't see how anything other than the Harushi avatar could start off the VM conversation.

The Haruhi avatar alone isn't that telling. What brought the individual into Haruhi? Haruhi 2006, Haruhi 2009, Disappearance, the light novel itself? If it's Haruhi 2009 or the Disappearance movie, then the individual might not have been an active anime fan in 2007.

But combine that Haruhi avatar with a join date of 2007, and a clearer picture forms, imo.

Every little bit of information helps.

Originally Posted by bigdeal000

I had no idea either. I thought you have to visit their profile to see the info there. But most of the time that info is outdated anyway (sorry for using you as an example Triple R, but your current avatar sure is from Shinsekai Yori and not Tari Tari) as people don't really care about it, or some people don't write it anyway. Is there a way to be more aware of all this stuff? (like some animesuki tricks thread or something?)

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'll fix this now.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The Haruhi avatar alone isn't that telling. What brought the individual into Haruhi? Haruhi 2006, Haruhi 2009, Disappearance, the light novel itself? If it's Haruhi 2009 or the Disappearance movie, then the individual might not have been an active anime fan in 2007.

But combine that Haruhi avatar with a join date of 2007, and a clearer picture forms, imo.

Every little bit of information helps.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Though wouldn't a "anime fan since: *inser date*" info below the avatar that a member could choose to fill out do a better job of providing that info? It'd take out the cases where someone was into anime before joining animesuki.

Not sure if that's even technically possible but I'm just throwing the idea out there.

[Liddo-kun]

Don't really care on how much a person has posted.

I care more about what someone brings to the forum / discussion. Is that member interesting to talk to? Shares nice pictures at image threads? Things like that.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to echo much of what Ledgem said. And I have to say to Solace that some of us like those "bells and whistles". Those "bells and whistles" add color and distinctiveness to Anime Suki, imo. There's beauty in diversity, and hence I would say there's ugliness in scrubbing out every sign of diversity. Diversity does not mean superior or inferior, it just means diverse.

Yes, people do like bells and whistles, and I'm not saying we're going to start stripping all of that away for no good reason. All I said was that most serious discussion forums do strip away a lot of that. It's usually because having too many bells and whistles gets distracting - how many forums have you been to where the signatures and avatars are obnoxiously huge (in dimension and/or file size), and every poster is using a different font/color, and so on? Sure, they're discussing, but the entire tone of the forum is very different. Some people prefer that, but there are also people who prefer forums that are more minimalist.

Anyway, you should well know by now that we don't often change for the sake of change. If join dates were an issue, we'd have removed them by now. Post counts however, do cause problems, and they'll never be easily displayed.

I understand the desire to have some kind of badge of veteran status, but truly I think the world has enough ways of superficially judging others before getting to know them. Personally I don't look at my join date as a badge of honor or whatever. It's more like "jeez, I've been here for how long?" And really, after so long, my eyes gloss over a lot of the profile/avy/sig stuff. It's the posts that interest me, because they tell me far more about a person than the other stuff does.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Solace

Yes, people do like bells and whistles, and I'm not saying we're going to start stripping all of that away for no good reason. All I said was that most serious discussion forums do strip away a lot of that. It's usually because having too many bells and whistles gets distracting - how many forums have you been to where the signatures and avatars are obnoxiously huge (in dimension and/or file size), and every poster is using a different font/color, and so on? Sure, they're discussing, but the entire tone of the forum is very different. Some people prefer that, but there are also people who prefer forums that are more minimalist.

Anyway, you should well know by now that we don't often change for the sake of change. If join dates were an issue, we'd have removed them by now. Post counts however, do cause problems, and they'll never be easily displayed.

I've been on many message boards with public post counts, and at least two of those message boards are just as large as Anime Suki's, if not larger. I haven't seen public post counts cause any problems there (hence why I'm amazed at the strongly negative responses I've read on this thread). What convinces you that they would cause problems here on Anime Suki?

At an individual level, high post counts simply say that this individual has been here a long time. However, it arguably says more about a forum itself (how established it is, how long it's been around, how active it is) than it does about any one individual.

I understand the desire to have some kind of badge of veteran status, but truly I think the world has enough ways of superficially judging others before getting to know them.

It's not about wanting to have a badge of veteran status. In my view, it's about promoting a sort of community spirit here on Anime Suki. A lot of members having high post counts indicates that there are people who have invested a lot of time in Anime Suki, and who are attached to this place. I don't see it as a matter of honor or shame, it simply is.

If you just strip everything down to handles and posts, all you're getting is opinions on a page, while knowing next to nothing about the people and personalities that have presented those opinions. It can actually decontexualize those opinions, and it certainly depersonalizes them. Maybe in some cases this is good, but I think that more often than not it's good to know something about the person sharing an opinion, and not only know the opinion itself. Sometimes knowing something about the messenger can help a lot in getting where the message is coming from; it can help you better understand the message itself.


Avatars and sigs are ways that people personally express themselves with clear, distinctive visuals. As the old saying goes, a picture says a thousand words.

Personally I don't look at my join date as a badge of honor or whatever. It's more like "jeez, I've been here for how long?" And really, after so long, my eyes gloss over a lot of the profile/avy/sig stuff. It's the posts that interest me, because they tell me far more about a person than the other stuff does.

I honestly think you might be underestimating what "the other stuff" can reveal about a person.

You can get opinions on a page almost anywhere on the internet. But some places have a greater sense of community than others do. And I've found that one of Anime Suki's strengths is its sense of community. I hope that's not something it ever loses through a death of a thousand policy changes.

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But some places have a greater sense of community than others do. And I've found that one of Anime Suki's strengths is its sense of community. I hope that's not something it ever loses through a death of a thousand policy changes.

So then why is having post count shown so important to you? Does this strength the community at all? Again as many people have already said including myself, post count really in the end means nothing since you should be looking at the posts themselves not how many a person has. That is strength in the community, reading, thinking and replying. Taking note of what members like certain series, characters or studios. You can do all this without a number under your name.

I think we're starting to beat a dead horse here...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

So then why is having post count shown so important to you? Does this strength the community at all?

Part of my argument is that having a community with a lot of active members having high post counts indicates that the community itself is strong, vibrant, active, and well-established.

Again as many people have already said including myself, post count really in the end means nothing...

That's simply not logically correct. A high post count strongly suggests that a particular member has been part of an online community for a long stretch of time.


In any event, like I wrote before, I accept that the public post counts idea was clearly not a popular one. So of course I accept that nothing will change there. However, some of the negative responses on this thread are frankly way over-the-top, based on my own experience on very large message boards that have public post counts. I felt compelled to respond to those negative responses which I honestly feel do a disservice to boards that have public post counts.


The other reason I've made the posts on this thread that I most recently have is to counter Westlo's suggestion of scrubbing join dates. I don't want a depersonalized, anti-information AS.