2010-10-03, 22:10 | Link #17861 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Spoiler for space:
It's basically saying that if it doesn't follow them it's not fair to the readers. Not that Umineko doesn't follow them. Later the opening even says that "no Dine means to starve demanding the fair and die." and it's signed "Witch in Gold, Beatrice"
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2010-10-03, 22:23 | Link #17862 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: In my golden land
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Ohh thanks, now I understand it better.
In the second twilinght of the first game, that wasn't a closed room right? (Only if the theory that says shannon=kannon, because if she was "dead" he could not cut the chain right?) |
2010-10-04, 04:46 | Link #17864 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Ah... my bad then. I thought you were saying he went for Asumu, simply because he thought she'd be a good mother. Whereas, I was saying he married her, because he could be at peace.
But, anyway, I think that scene and part of EP7 does show Rudolph did love Asumu, unlike what Kyrie had seemed imply back in EP3 and other instances. I guess this is yet another example from Umineko that says you shouldn't try to force reason on matters of the heart. That's what Kyrie did, the reality of the situation passed her by without her noticing, and she ended up enduring a lot of pain herself as a result, filling herself with envy and other possible negative emotions.
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2010-10-04, 08:49 | Link #17865 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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But in ep5, Hideyoshi seems to have the idea first. Now, there are a lot of ways we could look at this:
Bear in mind too that in ep6 it's offhandedly mentioned that, since Battler didn't want Kinzo to be a major issue in his game, the "Kinzo is dead" topic is not strongly explored. Reading between the lines there, the ep6 author either didn't care or didn't think it mattered to the story of Dawn. You'll note that even the meta-world tracks this, and does not bother bringing up Kinzo as a Logic Error solution (of course it's not a workable solution, but it isn't readily disprovable by Erika), or addressing him at all after the location check. So some authors just consider it more important, and the plot necessitates that someone raise the idea. Who the author chooses could speak volumes about who they are... Finally, note that we don't actually know if Kinzo was dead. Only that he was dead for all "games." In other words, he is dead in all Rokkenjima fictions. There is no objective way to determine if he was in "reality." If he wasn't before Oct. 6, 1986, he certainly was from then on.
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2010-10-04, 14:59 | Link #17866 |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Pieces are either capable or incapable of something and unfortunately we cannot be sure of which of the adult conferences hold most true due to the witch's interpretation.
So, the only difference in knowledge in each of the games could only come from something the piece learned during the game.
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2010-10-04, 16:19 | Link #17867 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Information has never actually been at issue. "Nature" has. Pieces cannot do things they would not do, which has nothing to do with whether or not they were able to do something. Informational differences are obviously fluid enough to permit variation in the stories. So I see no reason that all of the pieces must necessarily enter every story with identical knowledge. If that's so, they can either arrive with suspicions of Kinzo's death or not, and the degree to which they are suspicious can vary greatly (compare ep4 and ep5 to ep6).
Eva at least, however, always seems to suspect it.
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2010-10-04, 18:12 | Link #17869 | |
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But let's compromise, because I don't actually disagree with you: I think all the adults come into the scenario suspicious that Kinzo may in fact be dead. They remain this way until pushed either toward or away from their suspicions. If anyone suggests Kinzo is dead, everyone begins to think about it harder. If no one does prior to the murders, people's minds are less sharp from the shock and being told "Father said he's staying in his study" is more likely to be accepted. Likewise, the appearance of Kinzo's body causes them to jump to the conclusion that he was alive until very recently. Thus if an author wishes to raise the issue of Kinzo's death, he or she must do so before the plot kicks in. It's quite unusual for a case like ep5 to continue the matter, though given the objectives of the characters (and the author?), it makes some sense that they would continue to dwell on it.
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2010-10-04, 18:27 | Link #17870 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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I can't say why the adults seem more adamant in some cases than others when questioning whether or not Kinzo is alive, but I would say that has to do with strategy. A combination of trying to corner and appease Krauss. Sometimes they lean more one way than another. However, I can't be sure what the exact reason is.
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2010-10-04, 18:31 | Link #17871 | |
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It ain't fair, but there it is. That red presumably narrows the set of selectable worlds/stories to those which meet the preconditions (thus, "a world in which Kinzo is alive" is not permitted, but "a world in which no one suspects Kinzo is dead" may or may not be).
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2010-10-04, 19:11 | Link #17874 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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The Episode 6 ??? where Auaurora asks Bernkastel to use it in order to show her "the truth". He said "games", not the "game board" itself. Whether or not Episode 7 can be considered to be the same game as the previous Episodes is, of course, still up to one's own personal interpretation.
But it's the same catbox as the rest, to be sure, or else there simply isn't any point, even for the sake of trolling. And we can't forget that Bernkastel has a healthy fear of Featherine, so it's unlikely she'd go out of her way to troll her and thus possibly piss her off by using a completely different game board to tell a completely inaccurate story depicting the events of those two days. |
2010-10-04, 19:15 | Link #17875 | |
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In the ep6 ???, the two of them set up a board. At the end of ep7, we see them finishing with that board with Bern "taking" Will and Lion's pieces, and that follows directly from the situation in the Tea Party. And that's fine, if that's the only part of the episode. But we actually have three semi-discrete, semi-unified segments: Will's investigation, Claire's story, and the Tea Party, which most closely resembles the "game board" with which we are familiar. And so I am asking you: Which of those parts, if any (or all), are Bern's board? And how can we know that?
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2010-10-04, 19:16 | Link #17876 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2010-10-04, 19:19 | Link #17877 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Bernkastel actively created it, guides Will along it, has set it up to include the normal cast of characters, and generally abide by similar rules as the preceding games. For all intents and purposes, it's the same game as the previous episodes, just on a different game board. The inclusion of Will and Lion, as well as the difference in the setup of the chapel, are all distortions from the other games, due to alterations of events prior to the game start itself. I understand perfectly well. But the claim that "there are no changes to the events prior to the game in all episodes" is simply erroneous. |
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2010-10-04, 19:23 | Link #17878 | ||
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So that's weird. Then the Claire stuff, which Lion clearly references at the Tea Party when Claire appears, yet which otherwise is relatively insulated from the other parts of the episode. It's kind of a twisty mess, and what happens where and what it even means for something to happen in a "place" on the meta-fictional structure is really, really important. And I won't go lecturing you on that with respect to ep7 because I have no idea yet which parts go where. Quote:
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