Fate/Zero - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Alaya

But from normal people's view, you don't give away your daughter because of the reason like "she is the second child so she will not succeed the family. We should just give her away".

Normal as in westernized middle class people. Otherwise, arranged marriages between noble families done like "let's give them the second daughter or the third son, she or he is not going to bear our name anyway!" happened a lot.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Normal as in Modern westernized middle class people. Otherwise, arranged marriages between noble families done like "let's give them the second daughter or the third son, she or he is not going to bear our name anyway!" happened a lot.

Arrange marriage among High Society in western society was the norm into the early 20th century. It is also the norm in the majority of the world.

There were also additional reasons why Tokiomi gave Sakura to the Matou. However since the anime hasn't gotten that far, all i will say is that they are very good reasons.

[Geburah]

For Tokiomi it was better to make her a full fledged Matou member instead of a political member just for marriage, since she COULD become heir of Matous due to Matou magic lineage was about to die. Kariya was the last magic user and he abandoned his family so they didnt have any succesor.

Of course Tokiomi didnt expect Zouken turn of events.

Everyone if they had to choice between their daughter became a breeding tool and barely more for the rest of her life depending on her husband , or becoming an independent member of another family, that also MIGHT become their head would have chosen the same as Tokiomi. Zouken offer in appearance was insanely good

[ChronoReverse]

Hush you, we must judge everything using our western values. Other value systems are obviously inferior and bunk.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by jonli

I'm surprised this Sola, Kayneth and Lancer love triangle sparked such a lively discussion. If I read the novels I'd probably feel a lot more for Sola and sympathize with her.

Hard to sympathize with a woman who goes yandere on her fiance for another man.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Arrange marriage among High Society in western society was the norm into the early 20th century. It is also the norm in the majority of the world.

There were also additional reasons why Tokiomi gave Sakura to the Matou. However since the anime hasn't gotten that far, all i will say is that they are very good reasons.

You know... I don't think any reason would be good enough for any Sakura fan.

Originally Posted by Geburah

For Tokiomi it was better to make her a full fledged Matou member instead of a political member just for marriage, since she COULD become heir of Matous due to Matou magic lineage was about to die. Kariya was the last magic user and he abandoned his family so they didnt have any succesor.

Of course Tokiomi didnt expect Zouken turn of events.

Everyone if they had to choice between their daughter became a breeding tool and barely more for the rest of her life depending on her husband , or becoming an independent member of another family, that also MIGHT become their head would have chosen the same as Tokiomi. Zouken offer in appearance was insanely good

I think we should hold off on this until the anime addresses it. If we continue, we'll end up talking about Heaven's Feel and future events and start trouble.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I think we should hold off on this until the anime addresses it. If we continue, we'll end up talking about Heaven's Feel and future events and start trouble.

I agree. the entire conversation about Tokiomi's motivations seems kind of spoiler ridden. An anime watcher wouldn't be able to figure all of this out based upon what's been shown in the anime so far.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

Hush you, we must judge everything using our western values. Other value systems are obviously inferior and bunk.

Really? Give me a break . What is obvious here is that this is a very weak statement.
I don't want to insult the "western values" as I could and as I should.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Someone needs to get a refund on their sarcasm detector.

[Marik]

Do u believe that the eastern values are nothing compare to the western values?
Do u think that the western values are something that creates better society, stable families and etc.?
Cause I strongly doubt it.

[Malkuth]

^ Values, be it western or eastern, new or old, are just an alias of social stratification. The second an individual accepts a system dictating his thought the game is lost for him, and the only future he has is to be another cog in the wheel. If that's the goal, any value system, however lame, will work as long as one believes and follows. F/Z relation, see how happy and fulfilling lives and deaths Keaneth, Sola, Lancer, Saber, Maiya, etc. etc. have or had

[LostHanyou]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

Hush you, we must judge everything using our western values. Other value systems are obviously inferior and bunk.

It's funny because despite the obvious sarcasm, add in the word modern and you'll pretty much be on the spot with reality.

[ElricKeyblade]

Originally Posted by Marik

Do u believe that the eastern values are nothing compare to the western values?
Do u think that the western values are something that creates better society, stable families and etc.?
Cause I strongly doubt it.

Um...you DO know that ChronoReverse was being sarcastic, right?

Right.

Anyways, I've been reading this thread for quite a while now, and I just gotta say- I COMPLETELY disagree with those who are saying that Sola's actions were justified because they were done out of "true love." Breaking the fingers of her fiancee, using underhanded tactics to get at the command spells so that Diarmuid's attention would be ALL ON her, lying to/ hiding from Diarmuid as to how and why she got the command spells...right, true love. Being in love with him is fine, but playing dirty and then forcing her feelings onto him- NOT cool.

Besides, has ANY of those who support Sola's actions ever thought as to how Diarmuid feels about this? And especially about how he would have felt if he knew all that Sola actually did??

[giorno]

Originally Posted by ElricKeyblade

I COMPLETELY disagree with those who are saying that Sola's actions were justified because they were done out of "true love."

No no, nobody's saying her actions are justified because they were done out of love, we're saying her motivation is kind of understandable. The other thing that really irks me is that a lot of people seem to be taking for granted that Sola has any obligation towards Kayneth because Kayneth and Sola's father are forcing her to marry him. I dunno, to me, it feels like as if somebody kidnapped you and then people expect that you have any obligation towards your kidnapper and be loyal to him...

what I am saying is that her actions of torturing kayneth into yielding the command spells are justified and excusable in the context of the HGW, her motivations have nothing to do with it. Kayneth is dead weight, Sola taking the command spells and taking his place as a master would increase both of their chances of victory/survival

Basically, i'm saying she's doing the right thing, for understandable -though not quite justified- reasons

Breaking the fingers of her fiancee, using underhanded tactics to get at the command spells so that Diarmuid's attention would be ALL ON her, lying to/ hiding from Diarmuid as to how and why she got the command spells...right, true love.

It IS love. She's just crazy about it...

Being in love with him is fine, but playing dirty and then forcing her feelings onto him- NOT cool.

and nobody's denying this

Besides, has ANY of those who support Sola's actions ever thought as to how Diarmuid feels about this? And especially about how he would have felt if he knew all that Sola actually did??

I think everyone agrees that Sola is being a crazy bitch towards Lancer. What we're discussing here are mostly her actions in regards to Kayneth...

[Haak]

Well I've just finished reading the LN counterparts to the scenes in this episode and I found to my surprise that they didn't actually cut that much in Rider/Waver's scenes. Not to say that it didn't have more content though. Lancer/Sola/Kayneth's scene only took one part in the novel whilst Rider/Waver's bit took two parts. I think it's just that Rider/Waver's bit was more spaced out in the LN due to more descriptions and unlike in the anime I don't feel like the LN ended on any sort of grand conclusion when they trampled Caster's workshop. Plus they cut out parts of Lancer's flashback and rushed it which gave them more time to space out the rest of that bit.

Another thing to note is that the scene between Kiritsugu and Irisviel at the start wasn't actually in the LN (at least as far as I've read). Well to be more precise in the LN, after Lancer had retreated with Kayneth, Kiritsugu thought with frustration about how Saber had ruined everything. Instead they changed it to him talking to Irisviel about it later, which I think is a pragmatic change since it adds Irisviel more into the mix of this complicated relationship.

[Triple_R]

On the Kayneth/Lancer/Sola debate...

Kayneth's story is a classic and compelling tragic tale. He's generally competent, well-prepared for the Holy Grail War in most respects, and carries himself with a reasonable blend of courage (Episodes 7 and 8) and caution (Episodes 4 through 6). His undoing is due to two character flaws: His failure to keep up with the times, and his hubris in general.

Kayneth doesn't come across to me as a "bad guy" in general. He's not like the twisted sadists of the Caster team. But he is aristocratic, elitist, and bound to tradition to a debilitating degree. His "blind spot" is modern technology and weaponry because he probably views them as the meager tools of "the commoners", or something to that effect. Hence he neither makes good use out of them, or properly prepares for his opponents using them.

This sums up many of the reasons why I like Kayneth, and found him to be a very good antagonist. He was competent and powerful enough to pose a very credible threat to his opponents, he's just charismatic enough to have notable "stage presence", and the means to his defeat is through well-crafted character flaws that don't undermine him as a character but rather helps to define him.

Those character flaws, and how they result in Kayneth's inglorious defeat, are tied into possible social commentary here. I'll get to that in a bit.


Sola is a case of ruthless pragmatism on display. It's fine to disagree with her torturing the command seals from her fiance, just as it's fine to disagree with torture in general. A frequent and passionate debate in the realm of politics is if it's acceptable for interrogators to use torture to get critical information out of captured members of terrorist organizations. Many argue that it is not, viewing torture as morally unacceptable. If that's your view, and you're simply applying it logically to what Sola did to Kayneth, then I respect that.

However, that doesn't make Sola's actions any less understandable, or prudent, given the circumstances. Here I'm presuming that Sola has significant magical abilities of her own, and hence is unquestionably a more fitting Master for Lancer than a thoroughly de-powered Kayneth. Sola is right for wanting those Command Seals, and when viewed through the lens of strict pragmatism, it's honestly a bit impressive how she went about acquiring them (first attempting careful persuasion before using a less messy form of torture).

For his part, it's understandable that Kayneth doesn't want to give up those Command Seals. They're the closest thing he has left to magical power. In what must be an emotionally traumatized state for him, he is not willing to give them up from verbal persuasion alone. That's unfortunate, for him, but it is also not something I can fault him for. This is even putting aside whatever trust issues he may have with Sola and/or Lancer right now.


Now, as for Sola falling for Lancer, the Mystic Face curse that Lancer has is definitely an extenuating circumstance here. I find that it makes the whole "love triangle" (for lack of a better term, perhaps) situation less compelling, but it also makes Sola's actions more excusable. She literally can't help falling in love with Lancer, nor can Lancer help having that effect on her. This naturally creates a wedge between Kayneth and Sola, one exacerbated by the arranged marriage aspect of their fiances status.


An idea, or theme, that I think the narrative is trying to portray with the Kayneth/Lancer/Sola trio is the inherent weakness and unsuitability of certain traditions in our modern age. Kayneth's aristocratic nature, his dismissive attitude towards modern technology, and his arranged relationship with Sola, these are all proving highly counterproductive for him.

If Kayneth and Sola had fallen in love with each other in a more modern and natural fashion, with no prearranged relationship between them, would Sola had been more faithful and loving to him? Would it have made Kayneth's overall situation better? I think that these are reasonable questions to raise, and that "yes" answers to them would make the overall dynamic of the Lancer trio very compelling. Alas, here is where I would have preferred it if Sola had fallen in love with Lancer without the aid of a magical curse. I think the social commentary here would have been a bit edgier if this was the case, the reason being that even a happily married woman would presumably find it very hard to resist a magical curse.

However, while that magical curse makes the overall dynamic of the Lancer trio a bit less compelling to me, it does make Sola's character more sympathetic to me, so there is a trade-off of sorts here. Pros and cons, in other words.


On the whole, I very much like how Kayneth, Sola, and Lancer have all been handled. For me, it's easy to see where all sides are coming from, and to sympathize with the motivations behind their actions and choices, regardless of what I might think of those actions and choices themselves. In my opinion, this is one of the marks of a well-written and well-developed character: Having good reasons for doing s/he does and saying what s/he says.

So I don't think you need to tear down Kayneth in order to defend Sola, or to tear down Sola in order to defend Kayneth. Both have good reasons for their actions and choices, and hence I can sympathize with both characters even as they are at odds with one another.

On one final note, and just to be clear, I certainly don't agree with a person suddenly turning on their fiance/spouse, but there are definitely extenuating circumstances here that somewhat excuses Sola, imo. I'm looking forward to what she'll be like as Lancer's Master. Earlier on in this show I expressed disappointment over the lack of a female master, so I'm glad that now we basically have one.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Now, as for Sola falling for Lancer, the Mystic Face curse that Lancer has is definitely an extenuating circumstance here. I find that it makes the whole "love triangle" (for lack of a better term, perhaps) situation less compelling, but it also makes Sola's actions more excusable. She literally can't help falling in love with Lancer, nor can Lancer help having that effect on her. This naturally creates a wedge between Kayneth and Sola, one exacerbated by the arranged marriage aspect of their fiances status.

multiple people on this board has already state, Sola's automate mgical defense would protect her form Lancer's curse. If she is affected by the curse, it is because she let it affect her on her own decision.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

multiple people on this board has already state, Sola's automate mgical defense would protect her form Lancer's curse. If she is affected by the curse, it is because she let me affect her on her own decision.

All this does is muddy the waters, imo. It doesn't necessarily make the curse a non-factor. Where does Sola's will leave off, and the curse begin?

Say that Sola is taken in by Lancer's dashing looks, but is not in love with him, per se. So she lowers her magical defenses in response to his good looks, and the curse takes her the rest of the way. That still adds an element of magic to everything.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by ElricKeyblade

Um...you DO know that ChronoReverse was being sarcastic, right?

Yeah, I think I may have to use [/sarcasm] tags from now on no matter how blatant the sarcasm

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Say that Sola is taken in by Lancer's dashing looks, but is not in love with him, per se. So she lowers her magical defenses in response to his good looks, and the curse takes her the rest of the way. That still adds an element of magic to everything.

I... sincerely doubt it. It goes against her characterization in the novels (of a cold, calculating woman before meeting Lancer).

It could be that her wish is to feel love. Since all her life, she never did (Aka she was raised to be a cold, unfeeling tool/pawn by her status as a 'spare' child, she was numb about expectations and desires). Which seems what people don't get it. The "loss" Kayneth is feeling right now is the sense of worthlessness that Sola endured all her life. Tables been turned on him. It was his hubris.

Sola's occasional rush of emotions are because she doesn't know what to do with them. She never dealt with them before. Just like he never dealt with the loss.

Originally Posted by ElricKeyblade

Besides, has ANY of those who support Sola's actions ever thought as to how Diarmuid feels about this? And especially about how he would have felt if he knew all that Sola actually did??

And what about dear Kayneth? If he loved Sola, he would let her be with Lancer and break the engagement.

Furthermore, Diarmuid's loyalty to Kayneth is also unrequited. He despises him. And yeah, it's irrational and stupid of him to not strike a contract with Sola out of it. Really idiotic. if Kayneth had found out, he would have been furious.

The three of them have unrequited affections. I don't see anyone telling the men to stop being so stupid and keep their feelings to themselves.

Originally Posted by giorno

No no, nobody's saying her actions are justified because they were done out of love, we're saying her motivation is kind of understandable. The other thing that really irks me is that a lot of people seem to be taking for granted that Sola has any obligation towards Kayneth because Kayneth and Sola's father are forcing her to marry him.

Exactly, kind of extremely creepy that people assume that Sola should have any kind of obligation.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Thess

Exactly, kind of extremely creepy that people assume that Sola should have any kind of obligation.

Well, some culture still place high value in engagement and marriage regardless it is arranged or from love. Arrange marriage is also still acceptable in many cultures too.