Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by aohige

What is this Singaporean Voodoo nonsense.

You guys are the only ones that know how to do that black magic.

It isn't black magic! Think, we have an unlimited supply of gas to power all our otaku electronics! Land reclamation and making it an otaku resort is the way to go!

[Ithekro]

The owners of the Islands...they are Japanese, correct? The ones with the deeds?

The city of Tokyo offers to buy land out in the Sea from other Japanese land owners.

Aside from needing to figure out how to draw the line and how to police it with Tokyo police, there would only be the issue of Okinawa's government that administers those islands to contend with within the Japanese government. (Sort of like the City of Los Angeles and the Los Angeles Aqueduct and the policing it got while under contruction...or the L.A.P.D. setting up border patrols on Route 66 to keep Oakies out of California. They were pulled back under order of the State government as the California border is a bit outside Los Angeles city limits.)

And before you start pointing fingers...no, China has no say in the matter. I looked over the treaties. China's say ended a long time ago. They have no legitimate claim to the islands anymore. They can try to claim it as much as they like, but the facts are facts. The Islands are under Japan's control since 1895 while China gave up those those islands. And they might claim the treaties that ended World War II, but the territories listed were those Japan gave up claims for and those islands were not on the list. The treaty specifies places and labels the rest as "minor islands as we determine". Since it was not handed over with Formosa at war's end, it is no longer classified as part of Formosa, but instead classified as part of the Ryukyu Islands, as administred by the American government until 1972. Thus the Chinese claim is invalid within the structure of the various treaties.

Particularly the San Francisco Treaty since China did not sign it as they had a seperate peace with Japan which appearantly did nothing extra with the islands. Since the San Francisco Treaty is the Peace agreement, rather than the terms of surrender that the Potsdam Declaration was, the treaty is the one that matters and is binding. The Treaty of Taipei confirms the San Francisco Treaty (As well as adds the Spratly Islands and the Paracel Islands to the Chinese claim). And for those Chinese wanting to use this to reclaim the Daioyu Islands, Article 4 renders the Treaty of Shimonoseki void, but does not change the status of the islands as they were in US hands as part of the Ryukyu Islands, which means that they could not be returned to Taiwan nor China at that time, and by the time of the 1970s, Taiwan wasn't considered a country (officially) and Communist China was not considered an Allied nation...so they would have no more say in what lands could and could not be considered Japanese territory by way of the World War II treaties.

Basically, the mountain of treaties and administration grouping say "tough". The islands have not been considered Chinese terrotory since at least 1895 (with differences of opinion as to if they ever really were Chinese territory, part of the Ryukyu Kingdom, or just "no man's land" that defined the edge of Chinese waters). They were occupied by the United States since 1945 and formally US controlled in 1952 until handed over to the Japanese following the end of the occupation of the Ryukyu Islands in 1972, despite China's protest.

Oddly the US, while having no stance on the sovereignty of the islands, says they are under Japanese jurisdiction and thus covered by US security agreements with Japan. They have no stance because, as we have seen, it upsets the Chinese. But if shooting starts, the islands are covered by the US Seventh Fleet and other local assets.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Just for those reasons alone, I hope to see all foreign companies pulling out from China and move all the factories elsewhere.

Good luck with that one, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

A country full of 3-year-old tempers reacting like apes on something this minor can feck off wherever I see one. The rioters in China are exactly on the same level of stupidity as all those thousands (if not millions) of people in the Middle East/North Africa went apeshit over a very badly made video.

Sigh, want to add any more generalizations and insults there?

Seriously, it's one thing to be passionate about a subject matter, it's another if all you can do is post sweeping rhetorics that does little other than to belittle and insult while contributing nothing to the actual debate. Just about all your posts I've seen so far in this thread can be condensed down to "I HATE CHINA, CHINESE PEOPLE SUCKS ASS!"

[aohige]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Well, yes, sure, not many people will remember Shintaro Ishihara in the history books but, at the moment, he's very much in the news because he's one of the few politicians in Japan who says it as it is. He doesn't mince his words, unlike the vast majority of politicians who hide behind bland statements that say basically nothing. Everyone loves a straight-talker. And Ishihara is no fool. Everything has likely happened exactly the way he planned: forcing the national government to buy the islands and thus make a costly diplomatic stand on an issue it would have preferred to hem and haw over.

Hence even more reason for nationalistic, conservative Japanese to "love" him.

As of now, there is probably only one other Japanese politician who attracts as much media attention: Osaka mayor Toru Hashimoto. But that's news ("What Japan needs now is dictatorship") for another thread.

It's true, those two have balls.
Even if it's outright offensive, they'll go right out and speak their minds.

For better or worse.

Personally I can't stand Ishihara, but he doesn't take sh!t from anyone, I'll give him that.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Sigh, want to add any more generalizations and insults there?

Seriously, it's one thing to be passionate about a subject matter, it's another if all you can do is post sweeping rhetorics that does little other than to belittle and insult while contributing nothing to the actual debate. Just about all your posts I've seen so far in this thread can be condensed down to "I HATE CHINA, CHINESE PEOPLE SUCKS ASS!"

Generalizations? This is the truth about how the people in the PRC reacted, as cold and harsh it may be. And this reaction is quite similar to what I've seen on TV about the Middle East. Is there something wrong in speaking out the truth? As someone living in a Western democracy, I'm entitled to express my dislike about whoever I want and whenever I feel to, especially when it's about being ungrateful.

I dunno what is your problem with everyone who slated China's reaction, and I don't give a damn. Meanwhile, I think I've given my answer about the Japanese rightwing jerk known as Governor Ishihara. All I've sensed in your tone of your replies is that you hold something against Japan as well, and that there are a lot of members here who irked you. The Chinese people I know outside in normal life are very good people, they are the first to admit that their former country made several mistakes in their history, and say that the PRC (and the government's faithful) can go to hell if they think they can bully others and act like ungrateful brats like that.

You have the luxury of writing whatever you want behind a screen, but all you've done here is looking to pick a fight too. All I can see here is that the PRC owes a huge lot to Japan and other Western countries for helping developing their economy. All I want to hear from them is rather to say "Thank you for investing" or, otherwise, I would suggest them to re-design their economical/social system for self-sufficiency or even misery because of their way of thinking. Either way, I don't give a damn about what might irk you when the truth is spoken out.

[kaizerknight01]

let me state this, just a my opinion .... I don't have all of the facts on this matter... Still observing the developments

The riots in against the Japaneses companies are wrong , the rioters are being used, by the political parties there flaming the anti Japanese sentiment the government( China) could end the riots if they wanted to( Its still communist country with capitalist goals) there using the anti japan angle to their full advantage .. Its just plain wrong , i do think the rioters in the small minority, well most people i think care about there day to day necessities .... .... To be expected the other side will react too ( Japan ) .... To much lesser extent , ( expect a couple ultra nationalist , hardliners, extremist faction hot headed/ nut jobs to doing/ saying something stupid and rash ....)

The Chinese leader ship is acting like a bully to it neighbors ( Not the normal citizens) I do think there a deeper issues happening inside the communist party

The lasting thing that i want is armed conflict between those two countries ..... To only losers are the normal citizens .... I wish and hope both party settle this in civilized and calm manner .....

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Ishihara is no fool. Everything has likely happened exactly the way he planned: forcing the national government to buy the islands and thus make a costly diplomatic stand on an issue it would have preferred to hem and haw over.

Hence even more reason for nationalistic, conservative Japanese to "love" him.

As of now, there is probably only one other Japanese politician who attracts as much media attention: Osaka mayor Toru Hashimoto.

Are there no longer any powerful voices on the Japanese left, or did that all come to an end after the demonstrations in the 1960s? In that sense, Japan's political developments since the 1960s have at least a surface similarity to events in America where, again, the left has been entirely marginalized.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by aohige

It's true, those two have balls.
Even if it's outright offensive, they'll go right out and speak their minds.

For better or worse.

Personally I can't stand Ishihara, but he doesn't take sh!t from anyone, I'll give him that.

What about the Osaka guy? You think he's as retarded as Ishihara?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Are there no longer any powerful voices on the Japanese left, or did that all come to an end after the demonstrations in the 1960s? In that sense, Japan's political developments since the 1960s have at least a surface similarity to events in America where, again, the left has been entirely marginalized.

If the Left was marginalized, they wouldn't have been able to wrest control from the right and be the winning party like they are right now.
You know the Liberals took the current office, right?
Which sounds good in words, but unfortunately they are bunch of incompetent monkeys.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

What about the Osaka guy? You think he's as retarded as Ishihara?

I agree with a lot of his convictions, especially his devotion to showing no mercy against corruption in office.
But he also got some crazy outlandish ideas that sounds like it belongs in the looney bin.
He also makes boatloads of enemies.

So overall very mixed feelings.

[Cosmic Eagle]

I wonder though...he has good ideas but I wonder if he's as xenophobic as the extremists...

Can't possibly hurt more than the current lame duck government though

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The owners of the Islands...they are Japanese, correct? The ones with the deeds?

The city of Tokyo offers to buy land out in the Sea from other Japanese land owners.

Aside from needing to figure out how to draw the line and how to police it with Tokyo police, there would only be the issue of Okinawa's government that administers those islands to contend with within the Japanese government. (Sort of like the City of Los Angeles and the Los Angeles Aqueduct and the policing it got while under contruction...or the L.A.P.D. setting up border patrols on Route 66 to keep Oakies out of California. They were pulled back under order of the State government as the California border is a bit outside Los Angeles city limits.)

*snip for space*

Putting aside the legality matter about this(I doubt a lot of people got enough legal understanding about the contents of the treaty anyway) and even assuming that Japan is the rightful owner of the island, but is it really wise to flaunt it in front of an international forum(in US to boot, a country that China thinks in his mind as its rival) when the other party is still arguing over the rightful ownership of said island(at least in the minds of China citizen)? IIRC, Ishihara made the remark about buying the island twice, and it's not until he made the comment in international forum that the situation get tense fast. If Japan or Ishihara just want the island to not fall to China hand because the previous owner went bankrupt or something, they can do so discreetly under personal name for now and wait till a more suitable times to officially buying the island under the government name and the problem won't be as large as this IMO. There's nothing wrong with Tokyo buying the island, but doing it like this is like saying in taunting China to react by saying "yay, we got the island, you can't do anything about it" in front of its face in a sneering manner.

The Chinese government is a punk right now, I concede, by flexing their power needlessly everywhere they can after becoming a great power in Asia(if not the world), but that just mean Japan, being the sensible one, should know better than openly provoke them in an international forum and not getting any reaction. Sensible people don't provoke gang member with gun openly in real life if they don't want to get shot right? Unless if he/she want to do a gun war with said gang member, then that's another matter.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Just for those reasons alone, I hope to see all foreign companies pulling out from China and move all the factories elsewhere. A country full of 3-year-old tempers reacting like apes on something this minor can feck off wherever I see one. The rioters in China are exactly on the same level of stupidity as all those thousands (if not millions) of people in the Middle East/North Africa went apeshit over a very badly made video.

Indeed, and America is full of money embezzling ape bastard, warmonger and people shooting their gun everywhere right? Oh, and not to mention they all must be egoist bastard who don't care if they destroy a country economy as long as they make lots of money.*sarcasm fully intended*

Just because a portion(can't found the number, but I'm sure it doesn't exceed 15% of the population) of China citizens decide to ignore the law and do some riot doesn't mean that all of its citizen is the same. You're entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't mean you can diss a whole country's citizen just from one example. A lot of people in that country doesn't give a damn about a small island that doesn't have anything to do with them as long as their business is not affected(which mean they actually want China to settle the matter with Japan peacefully), and that's coming from someone who do business with both native Japanese and native Chinese regularly.
Beside, China and its citizen has done plenty good toward African country when all America and European country care about is taking their resource(taken from a native African himself who does business to my country, which is not China). The matter with Japan is just that sensitive, just like the matter between Japan and South Korea.

The reason I post here is because I see this generalization a lot in this thread and I can't help but feel sympathy toward a lot of Chinese who doesn't have anything to do with the riot(they're entitled to do a peaceful demo though, just like what some native Chinese does in my country) and can't help but trying to make the point that the Japanese side is not exactly completely guilt free toward this mess.

A little OOT : Maybe for you and me(being an atheist), religion is not something important, but some people take their religion seriously, even above their own family, and you have no right to look down on them because of that. When someone's most important gets ridiculed, people react badly(violence is still the wrong answer though). It's just like a stranger who you just know suddenly made fun of your family/girlfriend in front of you just because in their custom, that's how they show their closeness toward you and that person call you what a boring overreacting guy when you snaps back at them.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by aohige

If the Left was marginalized, they wouldn't have been able to wrest control from the right and be the winning party like they are right now.
You know the Liberals took the current office, right?
Which sounds good in words, but unfortunately they are bunch of incompetent monkeys.

I meant the "Left," then. The US Democratic Party is not "Left," and the Liberals under Noda don't look very Left either. Ishihawa and company seem pretty far to the right, certainly in world terms. I see them as similar to people like LePen in France, though without the emphasis on immigration. As here in the US, Japan has a center/center-right party in power, a further right party, the LDP, and then far-right voices like Ishihawa. Japan had an active Communist party in the 1960s; do they have any successors today?

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Generalizations? This is the truth about how the people in the PRC reacted

You sure? all one billion+ of them? That my friend, is exactly what generalization is.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

And this reaction is quite similar to what I've seen on TV about the Middle East. Is there something wrong in speaking out the truth? As someone living in a Western democracy, I'm entitled to express my dislike about whoever I want and whenever I feel to, especially when it's about being ungrateful.

You're certainly entitled to speak whatever is on your mind, doesn't mean it's correct or factual however. Also, I'd tread very lightly with your view that China or other countries "owes" western nations anything, the end of western imperialism wasn't all that long ago, and its effect very much lingers on to this day. And frankly, whatever aid that came out of the west has far more to do with jockeying for geopolitical influence or for simply profit, than any altruistic goals.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

I dunno what is your problem with everyone who slated China's reaction, and I don't give a damn.

This may come as a surprise to you, but none whatsoever. If you'd bothered to read the posts I've wrote, you would've see that I've said multiple times that the Chinese riots were not justified or appropriate.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Meanwhile, I think I've given my answer about the Japanese rightwing jerk known as Governor Ishihara. All I've sensed in your tone of your replies is that you hold something against Japan as well, and that there are a lot of members here who irked you.

Nope, that's just you projecting your bias. I enjoy studying/debating geopolitics, and like I wrote in a post earlier, I tend to look at this issues as objectively and analytically as possible. Is Japan's govt perfect? no, are there things it can do better? yes, which is the same for just about every government on the planet.

TBH, the only one that has lost their temper in this thread is you, I'm neither irked or pissed off at anyone for disagreeing with me, it's the nature of debate, this isn't a circle-jerking thread where everyone just keeps agreeing with everyone else.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

The Chinese people I know outside in normal life are very good people, they are the first to admit that their former country made several mistakes in their history, and say that the PRC (and the government's faithful) can go to hell if they think they can bully others and act like ungrateful brats like that.

You don't get to call the entire population of a nation names and then backtracks to say the ones you know are all good people.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

You have the luxury of writing whatever you want behind a screen, but all you've done here is looking to pick a fight too. All I can see here is that the PRC owes a huge lot to Japan and other Western countries for helping developing their economy. All I want to hear from them is rather to say "Thank you for investing" or, otherwise, I would suggest them to re-design their economical/social system for self-sufficiency or even misery because of their way of thinking. Either way, I don't give a damn about what might irk you when the truth is spoken out.

This thread is here to debate the issue, note that the title isn't "Post here about Senkaku/Diaoyu only if you agree with KYF". Everyone else have been able to carry on civil and intelligent debates, why can't you?

Really, like I wrote earlier, it's fine to be passionate about an issue, but if you're going to have any sort of honest intelligent debate, leave the rhetoric at the door.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Oddly the US, while having no stance on the sovereignty of the islands, says they are under Japanese jurisdiction and thus covered by US security agreements with Japan. They have no stance because, as we have seen, it upsets the Chinese. But if shooting starts, the islands are covered by the US Seventh Fleet and other local assets.

First off, great post. It really clears up the facts about who owns what.
Also, it seems that the Americans are getting weaker and weaker in the face of Chinese pressure. It has no official stance on the dispute yet its own treaties designate the islands as part of Japan. Talk about weakness.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

First off, great post. It really clears up the facts about who owns what.
Also, it seems that the Americans are getting weaker and weaker in the face of Chinese pressure. It has no official stance on the dispute yet its own treaties designate the islands as part of Japan. Talk about weakness.

Weakness? what weakness? The US doesn't benefit from openly siding with the Japanese, so why would it? If anything, letting this situation continue to simmer will only boost US influence in the area, as it serves to leverage other smaller nations in the area to turn to the US for aid and protection. It's Geopolitics for Superpowers 101 - contain and divide.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

What about the Osaka guy? You think he's as retarded as Ishihara?

slightly off topic but since you ask...

Tokyo mayor Shintaro Ishihara’s latest foray into promoting international goodwill is to assert that Japan’s wartime “comfort women” were all willing Korean prostitutes only interested in the money.
Ishihara’s remarks came at one of his infamous press conferences:

“Where is the proof that Japanese forced them to do this?
It was an era of poverty, these women grudgingly turned to the only trade they could make money in, prostitution.”

He also called a 1993 apology for their fate, made by the then chief cabinet secretary, “idiotic for accepting their claims like that.”

At the other end of the country, Osaka’s maverick mayor and committed tattoo-hater Tooru Hashimoto has also been expressing scepticism about Korea’s claims:

“There is no evidence they were subject to any coercion from the army.
Testimony from comfort women isn’t enough. The reliability of their claims can’t be taken for granted.”

He went on to accuse Korea’s king-hating president of illegally entering Japanese territory.

NSFW

Sankaku Link to Article

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[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Weakness? what weakness? The US doesn't benefit from openly siding with the Japanese, so why would it? If anything, letting this situation continue to simmer will only boost US influence in the area, as it serves to leverage other smaller nations in the area to turn to the US for aid and protection. It's Geopolitics for Superpowers 101 - contain and divide.

Hence why the whole territory issue in East Asia is in a mess. There is a good reason why United States left lot of things vague in the treaty.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

slightly off topic but since you ask...

NSFW

Sankaku Link to Article

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Yes of course they will say the same things to pander to the voter audience. Standard election rhetoric....However, Ishihara clearly has no substance underneath that facade but this Hashimoto seems like an unknown

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Weakness? what weakness? The US doesn't benefit from openly siding with the Japanese, so why would it? If anything, letting this situation continue to simmer will only boost US influence in the area, as it serves to leverage other smaller nations in the area to turn to the US for aid and protection. It's Geopolitics for Superpowers 101 - contain and divide.

Because the US is in alliance with Japan and should support it. What what you say makes some sense I guess. Let those smaller countries freak out a bit and then they'll come to you when things get desperate.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Because the US is in alliance with Japan and should support it. What what you say makes some sense I guess. Let those smaller countries freak out a bit and then they'll come to you when things get desperate.

They do, those bases in Japan aren't just for show you know?

That being said, just because they're allies doesn't mean either one will, or should, side with each other on any and all issues. For the most part, nations allies with one another to further serve their own interests, not out of some altruistic goals.