Bakemonogatari - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[mhan00]

Originally Posted by qwertyman

From what I got from the episode, it was a serious curse. If the boy who planted it was able to pull off the curse correctly, Nadeko would've died. So if the boy knew all of this and still went through the curse, it is, in a sense, just for him to die. That is assuming that Nadeko wouldn't have been able to do the countermeasures herself.

And it wasn't just Nadeko messing up the countermeasures that triggered the curse; it was also because Shinobu's presence. If Shinobu hadn't lured in a bunch of other spirits, Nadeko messing up the countermeasure wouldn't have mattered.

given the fact that it doesn't seem that supernatural things are widely known about in this anime's universe, however, there was no reason for the kid to think that the curse would have any effect at all. saying it was just for him to die because he did something childish is like saying one of us would deserve to die if we said something like "damn you" to someone who cut us off in traffic. we don't actually mean any harm by saying it, but if a vampire happened to corrupt the area we were in when we said it and it became a valid curse, would it be just for us to die then?

in my opinion, no. it would just be tragic that someone would have to pay so high a price for something so petty just because of completely unusual circumstances.

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by mhan00

agreed. you summed it up a hell of a lot better than i did. the kid got screwed; it surely wasn't a worthy impulse of his to do the curse, but no way did he mean any actual harm by it.

Well, see, they don't go into details, so you could interpret it either way: as a simple childish reaction gone wrong or as real malicious intent.

For one thing, we don't know how complicated or involved placing the curse was. If it was just reading out an incantation or something (as you seem to assume), then yeah, that was probably just the impulse of a moment, but if there was a whole ritual involved, which required a decent amount of preparation, then that seems like it'd have been pretty darn deliberate, like the kid seriously wanted her to be squeezed to death by a snake. Otherwise he wouldn't have gone through all the trouble.

I do agree, though, that either way the kid doesn't deserve to die, 'cause death is pretty harsh, permanent, and he's just a kid. But it's arguable whether he really, really meant anything bad by placing the curse.

[Reekon]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

I don't see how that could be the case. I am only mentioning what has already been stated in the anime and never brought any mention of any future events with my comments.

Regardless, I am not gonna keep digging on this, let next episode clear our doubts and be done with it.

No, no, no. You got it wrong. I was thinking that I was spoiling it for you, coz if I didn't tell you, then you would have thought that the next ones will be prequel stuff.

But yeah, let's not dig further into this. Just wanter to clarify that it wasn't you, but more of my fault. Pis! ;-)

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

What's your point?

1. Episode 3. See Hitagi reference to capacity.

2. See below post by ac195. IT is one of the first things most men think of before pressing the flee button. "she must be a tramp !!"

Originally Posted by ac195

Well, crotch rot is scary isn't it?

Yeah, Hitagi was worried about Araragi's "non-virgin hooker germs".

Love the nested irony in there

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by mhan00

agreed. but no way did he mean any actual harm by it.

How do you know thats true ?

He had spite in him.

Spite by its very definition means you deeply wish for harm to come to a person for not doing as you wanted.

It is the action of ill will and vengeance.

Yes he meant harm.

Just like Kanbaru's wish to run faster... or to simply be closer to Senjougahara.

Did she mean harm by it ?

Yes.

Ignorance of the full consequence of your actions, when done in spite, is a very wicked thing.

I got stabbed by a pencil in Kindergarten as a child.

Did my child assailant mean it. ?

Yes.

Did she expect blood to come out and the pencil to break in my arm?

No.

What did I do to "deserve it" I pinched her on the butt.

[mhan00]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

How do you know thats true ?

He had spite in him.

Spite by its very definition means you deeply wish for harm to come to a person for not doing as you wanted.

It is the action of ill will and vengeance.

Yes he meant harm.

Just like Kanbaru's wish to run faster... or to simply be closer to Senjougahara.

Did she mean harm by it ?

Yes.

Ignorance of the full consequence of your actions, when done in spite, is a very wicked thing.

I got stabbed by a pencil in Kindergarten as a child.

Did my child assailant mean it. ?

Yes.

Did she expect blood to come out and the pencil to break in my arm?

No.

What did I do to "deserve it" I pinched her on the butt.

he didn't stab her. he didn't go out after her and try to hurt her. he carried out a curse/ceremony/whatever that no one had any expectations whatsoever to actually work. it's like girls doing a ouiji board or doing the "bloody mary" thing at night in the mirror at slumber parties. they're not actually expecting an apparition to appear and kill them. i would argue that the kid had no reasonable expectation that anything would come of his curse, unlike if he went out and actually hit/stabbed her. he's not in kindergarten, he's what, probably 12-14 years old? he's old enough to understand that there is a difference between actually causing harm by stabbing someone with a pencil versus casting a pretend curse on someone. that circumstances happened to conspire to make his curse an actual curse was not his fault.

it's like someone taking a picture of their boss or whatever and putting it on a dartboard so they can throw stuff at it. sure, there might be resentment and maybe some spite, but no actual harm is meant by it. given all the evidence we have of the bakemonogatari world, it seems like it is supposed to be like our world, except with the occasional supernatural phenomena that only a few people ever experience/learn about. the kid had no expectation or reason to believe that his curse would work; imo he saw it as a relatively harmless way to relieve the resentment and hurt he felt by her rejection. certainly nothing that would merit getting crushed to death by a supernatural snake.

[mhan00]

as to the topic itself, i rated the episode a solid 8. i enjoyed it quite a bit, even with all the deficiencies in animation. the dialog was more than enough to inform me of what was happening, even if i didn't actually see it happening, and it kept me interested. plus, the girl's hair alone was worth rating the episode a 10.

[zato_1one]

I wonder if Araragi didn't keep Shinobu around. Will the effect on the shrine be vanished?

[Lummie]

Originally Posted by mhan00

as to the topic itself, i rated the episode a solid 8. i enjoyed it quite a bit, even with all the deficiencies in animation. the dialog was more than enough to inform me of what was happening, even if i didn't actually see it happening, and it kept me interested. plus, the girl's hair alone was worth rating the episode a 10.

Hair!?......Worth a 10?

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by mhan00

he didn't stab her. he didn't go out after her and try to hurt her. he carried out a curse/ceremony/whatever that no one had any expectations whatsoever to actually work. it's like girls doing a ouiji board or doing the "bloody mary" thing at night in the mirror at slumber parties. they're not actually expecting an apparition to appear and kill them.

You're making some extreme assumptions there based on how *you* might believe things. Many people believe quite strongly in things you or the people around you don't. Do you believe in communion actually turning wine and crackers into blood and flesh? Some people do. Do you believe there's an entity named Satan plotting the ruin of mankind? Some people do. Do you believe thinking hateful thoughts about someone can actually do them harm? Some people do.

Folk magic (related to Shinto) still has strong meaning in Japan... hell, many treat the "blood type"==compatibility thing quite seriously.

We simply lack data to know what the perpetrator of the curse thought - so arguing over it is silly. In life, people often take the consequences for ill-thought-out or careless acts.... so it goes.

Araragi learned a "truth" in this episode that you can't save *everyone* - all you can do sometimes is focus on those you have connections with.

[mhan00]

Originally Posted by Lummie

Hair!?......Worth a 10?

it's like she has dreadlocks, but they're smooth! definite 10.

[ickem]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

I wonder if Araragi didn't keep Shinobu around. Will the effect on the shrine be vanished?

It probably wouldn't since she is almost powerless right now. I would think the reason the Kaii are active is because of her presence when she was at her full power.

[monir]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Something else has just occurred to me, a follow-on thought based on my assumption that Araragi is keeping Shinobu alive by allowing her to feed on his blood.

Given Araragi's deep-seated insecurity about his self-worth, there is a possibility that he actually enjoys being an half-oddity. It's what makes him special, in the same way being an Eva pilot is what gives Shinji Ikari his sense of self-esteem. For all we know, deep down inside, Araragi actually enjoys playing hero.

In the same way that Kanbaru lied to herself about what she truly wished for, there's a chance that Araragi likes being a half-vampire more than he is willing to admit.

Kindness is an act of self satisfaction after all which is just as selfish, so I'm sure you are making a very good point about self-worth. The most obvious reason why he won't give up his half-vampire status because he can't. Shinobu dies if he stops feeding his blood. Then again, the obvious reasoning never explains the whole truth in these stories which is one of the attractive qualities about this show. The other reason is the first-contact he makes with Oshino's potential customers which is often excruciating for him physically. Senjougahara stapled him from the inside of his mouth. Hachikuji bit him. Kanbaru nearly killed him twice. Sengoku's cursed snake bit him and relocated his bone structure. Araragi most certainly can use the quick healing ability cause his desire to help people never seem to resonate with those very people who he wants to help at first-contact.

[Zetsubo]

@Mahn00

The boy as well as the other girl wanted Nadeko to hurt because of her love rejection.


Thus they chose to curse her.

Now, they did not choose an "equivalent exchange" curse.

They choose a curse that would kill her.

Not a curse that would ruin her love life for all of middle school.

A curse that would kill her.

That is a strong degree of MAILICE

Reason it out.

Nadeko rejected the boy because she was in love with someone else. She had no malice.

They cursed her because they wanted unfair revenge... to hurt her more in return. They had Malice.

Whether they expected the curse to work or not it is quite frankly irrelevant.

What is relevant is the steps they took toward enacting MALICE and the degree of mailice.

In kindergarten the little girl wanted to hurt me more than my butt pinch did her. She then chose to stick me with a pencil instead of pinching me back.

However she underestimated her malice against me and instead broke off an inch of wood and led in my body.

Is that "equivalent exchange" ?

Is that fair and reasonable "payback?"

Nadeko's ex-friends: they both overreacted with malice and someone paid for it.

[BetoJR]

I thought it was clearly stated in the episode that the curse wasn't anything serious to begin with, and only the compounded effect of Sengoku's attempts to get rid of it and Shinobu's presence made it that bad? That being the case...

[monir]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I thought it was clearly stated in the episode that the curse wasn't anything serious to begin with, and only the compounded effect of Sengoku's attempts to get rid of it and Shinobu's presence made it that bad? That being the case...

Araragi also said Sengoku's attempt to get rid of the curse in that shrine what magnified her problem. The curse manifested in that fasion because the shrine was attracting all those oddities since Shinobu's arrival in the town. A different location might have helped her avoid all these.

Btw, Sengoku's portrayal in the show is a very cute, delicate girl who pleaded for Koyomi Onichan's help. And yet she was holding down live snake and were eviscerating/cutting them to pieces and then, were pinning those pieces on the trees. Not so cute now, is she? Desperation can turn the most cutesy of thing the deadliest of being. I've been watching the Discovery Channel's, when animals attack.

[Clarste]

The curse was NOT serious. It was not a death curse. From the sound of it, it caused discomfort or pain without lasting physical damage. It only got bad after Nadeko started killing snakes to cure it. Nadeko was the one who made it serious. Before that, regardless of the whether or not they believed it would work, it was relatively harmless, probably closer to a prank than an attack.

Anyway, people make mistakes, and sometimes they have bad consequences. That makes sense. Stuff happens. But that doesn't mean they deserve the consequences, and in this case it seems like they didn't. That's why I said it's not justice, it's just a tragic accident.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Anyway, people make mistakes, and sometimes they have bad consequences. That makes sense. Stuff happens. But that doesn't mean they deserve the consequences, and in this case it seems like they didn't. That's why I said it's not justice, it's just a tragic accident.

Makes you wonder....

When Nadeko returns to school, how is she going to handle the whole issue of seeing that boy slowly twist in pain because of the curse. >_<

[monir]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Makes you wonder....

When Nadeko returns to school, how is she going to handle the whole issue of seeing that boy slowly twist in pain because of the curse. >_<

Ah, but you've missed out on the twist... Sengoku should not see that boy again for he will be killed by that snake. That anguish Araragi was expressing for not able to stop that snake was for that very reason. He wanted to save that boy also.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by monir

Ah, but you've missed out on the twist... Sengoku should not see that boy again for he will be killed by that snake. That anguish Araragi was expressing for not able to stop that snake was for that very reason. He wanted to save that boy also.

A quick death then? figured the slow process of the curse would actually repeat on the boy. Then again, the snake failed the first time and the curse itself could also change when it comes to returning to the one that summoned it.

Now, where's Meme when you need a bit more info on this sort of things.

Either way, seeing an empty seat in her classroom could be just as shocking, specially for someone like Nadeko.