General Gun Control DISCUSSION Thread

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by GDB

Yeah, I'm sure everyone who hunts is like that. None are hicks who just go hunting so they can drink while shooting stuff. Nope, they're all noble souls who care for the poor animals. Seriously, exaggeration much?

And I never said hunting is a sport for cowards, just that most of the people who do hunt wouldn't dare do it if they didn't overpower their game by exponential means.

Speaking as someone who has attempted bow hunting, it's much, much, much more difficult and far less efficient than using a rifle. If you're hunting to put dinner on the table, you want to use the most efficient means possible. To get a good clean kill with a bow, you need to get pretty close to the deer, but with a rifle you can be fifty, seventy or a hundred meters distant and still take it out in one shot.

If you're hunting for sport and for fun, that's a bit different. But as I mentioned, I've been hunting before. It's not fun, it's incredibly boring. You sit up in a tree stand and wait for a deer to show up, then you shoot it. I'd rather go to a supermarket honestly, but you can't buy that much venison cheaply (if you can even buy it at all).

Some folks who live in remote areas, though, they have to hunt or they'll go hungry.

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

It is just sad that some people say "Ban violent video games" or "We need to arm every principal/arm teachers" but all we have to do is figure out how to make it harder for guns to get into the wrong hands. Guns are pretty much floating around American society. We have to find a way to make it so it is harder for guns to get into the wrong hands, and let us be realistic, they'll always end up in the wrong hands sometimes. We just have to minimize this.

And if we arm teachers, you better believe there will be incidents were students get access to the guns there on school grounds and then shoot students, faculty, and staff. Arming teachers and putting guns in nearly every school out there? Holy shit, people. That is not the answer!

I never once said we should arm the teachers--I said if you're going to make a gun-free zone, you should hire security guards (ones who are trained to use their gun, of course). Most gun-free zones have security personnel present--courthouses and city halls and such have baliffs, police stations are filled with cops and the BART rail line here in the SF Bay Area has its own internal police force. Schools, though, don't. I really applaud the Los Angeles police chief stating that the LAPD will start making the rounds of schools in a very unobtrusive manner--this is the sort of solutions we need to be proposing. Not taking the rights of millions away because one dickbag decided to go off his rocker and kill a bunch of children.

The problem with the current gun laws is that they're useless. They don't do anything. The background checks aren't extensive enough. The paper trail isn't coherent enough. Banning a rifle because it has a black synthetic stock and a flash suppressor doesn't make people safer--a crazed attacker will just shoot up the school with the same exact rifle with wood furniture and carvings of leaping stags.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by GDB

Yeah, I'm sure everyone who hunts is like that. None are hicks who just go hunting so they can drink while shooting stuff. Nope, they're all noble souls who care for the poor animals. Seriously, exaggeration much?

And I never said hunting is a sport for cowards, just that most of the people who do hunt wouldn't dare do it if they didn't overpower their game by exponential means.

Not sure what your problem with hunting w/ gun is. While Lost Cause may be portraying only the positive side of it, you on the other hand seems to think it's bad for some reason.

I couldn't care less for what reason someone is hunting, as long as they're not wasting what they kill. Nor is hunting some sort of "honor duel", there's no reason for a hunter to not use the most effective tool available to him/her. Now some opt for bow because that's what they prefer for one reason or another, but that doesn't make hunting with guns "cowardly".

a buddy of mine who hunt said this one time about the difference between bagging a deer with a bow and a rifle: "One ended up on the dinner table, the other one is probably still running".

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by GDB

And I never said hunting is a sport for cowards, just that most of the people who do hunt wouldn't dare do it if they didn't overpower their game by exponential means.

Well, yeah, but that's kind of a big factor in human evolutionary history. Guns might be a more accurate iteration, but since the dawn of humanity most cultures have used tactics and weaponry that keep them relatively safe and overpower their prey by a large margin. A spear with an atlatl wielded by a skilled hunter isn't that much different from a gun in that you fire from a distance and keep yourself out of any direct conflict (animals will flee if you miss in either scenario). Unless we're talking trophy hunting of predators like lions, which no one does anymore - and even then, I can assume most predators will flee when attacked, but that is a rather unusual scenario in the natural world.

Anyways, I would like to go hunting myself (never had the experience), but only to eat fresh game meat and get in touch with my 'primal' roots . I would prefer to use a high-powered crossbow, but, ironically, I've heard from a coworker that obtaining clearance to own/wield one is even more difficult than obtaining the paperwork to wield a gun!

Originally Posted by kyp275

a buddy of mine who hunt said this one time about the difference between bagging a deer with a bow and a rifle: "One ended up on the dinner table, the other one is probably still running".

To what type of bow was he referring? I've heard a crossbow can be just as accurate/effective as a rifle.

[Ithekro]

Most people don't use the word bow when talking about a crossbow. Meaning one of the hand pulled bows, be it a long bow and compound bow, or whatever.

[kyp275]

I'm pretty sure he was using a compound bow, there's little reason to go crossbow as they're only allowed during firearm season, as opposed to bows in the archery season.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by kyp275

I'm pretty sure he was using a compound bow, there's little reason to go crossbow as they're only allowed during firearm season, as opposed to bows in the archery season.

Interesting. I knew there were specific seasons in which hunting was allowed, but I've never heard of archery season. I suppose I'm quite ignorant on the topic. The idea of hunting has a sort of romantic appeal to me, however, so I should learn up if I ever want to try my hand at it.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I never once said we should arm the teachers--I said if you're going to make a gun-free zone, you should hire security guards (ones who are trained to use their gun, of course). Most gun-free zones have security personnel present--courthouses and city halls and such have baliffs, police stations are filled with cops and the BART rail line here in the SF Bay Area has its own internal police force. Schools, though, don't. I really applaud the Los Angeles police chief stating that the LAPD will start making the rounds of schools in a very unobtrusive manner--this is the sort of solutions we need to be proposing. Not taking the rights of millions away because one dickbag decided to go off his rocker and kill a bunch of children.

The problem with the current gun laws is that they're useless. They don't do anything. The background checks aren't extensive enough. The paper trail isn't coherent enough. Banning a rifle because it has a black synthetic stock and a flash suppressor doesn't make people safer--a crazed attacker will just shoot up the school with the same exact rifle with wood furniture and carvings of leaping stags.

I wasn't talking about anyone here in particular, and I wasn't referring to anything you wrote.

I was talking about people I've seen on TV. Over the weekend, I heard one person say every principal should have a gun, and I heard another person say teachers should have guns, and then today on TV I heard a woman from Texas say that we should arm teachers.

It just blows my mind that some people think that is the answer. The answer is not to arm every principal or to arm our teachers. Only idiots would think that is a good idea, because if we started doing that in a lot of schools, you know there will be incidents where students get access to those guns and go on a rampage or a frustrated teacher or school staff member goes on a shooting spree in a school.

[synaesthetic]

Yeah, that's just stupid. Educators aren't trained to handle weapons, and there's no reason they should have to be (unless they want to be, on their own time, but that's their business, not ours).

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

saw that crap on CNN about video games...

*deep, angry sigh*

My feelings exactly.
It isn't the video game, the guns, the music, the magazines or anything other than what it ALWAYS is in these situations.
It was the SHOOTER and his ability to walk into a school totally unchallenged by anyone, and thus allowed to kill with impunity until people with guns (the SWAT team) showed up.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

As if the first dude from Japan, UK, France, Germany or Russia is not playing hours on Call of Duty. Now what?

And based on the last Call of Duty game, I've not seen anyone in other countries go berserk and start attacking people with a machete because he was inspired by that particular bit either. How do you explain we don't have many cases of such violence elsewhere but the US if we take into account that players from worlwide are probably spending as many hours as Adam Lanza did? try finding another denominator in this equation and it's pretty obvious what it is.

Seriously, one word to describe those people accusing video games: c**ts!

We agree.
My personal favorite is Gears of War.
Very violent game, but am I going to go out with a chainsaw and cut people in half becaue of it?
NO!
And neither will nearly every other person who's played it.
I own guns, as do 80,000,000 other people, most own 20 to 30 round mags and semi-auto rifles of one sort or another.
Are they going to go out and mow down little kids in cold blood?
NO!
I like science fiction flicks with lots of action in them like Aliens, Avatar, Star Trek, and Riddick.
Does that mean that SF fans are going to go on a killing spree because those movies have violence galore in them?
NO!

I am quickly coming to the conclusion based on going back through all the shootings from Charles Whitman to now (mostly reading on Wikipedia, which I don't normally do, but it's expediant) and I see a common pattern that defies the gun issue entirely.

Mental Illness.
Vexx is right, we need a tax that will pay for an instant health check system in addition to the FBI check.
The new health care law could easily provide this.

If the politicians are really serious about stopping this, they need to tell Schumer, Fienstein, Bloomberg, and all the other hoplophobes to STFU and knock off the talk about banning this that or the other.

If they really want to change this situation, let's see them put their money where their big, fat mouths are and amend the Brady Act to include mental health records in the National Instant Check System.
That would be a quick, relatively easy, bi-partisan approach that doesn't infringe on anybody's rights, and preserves the 2nd amendment.
The founders never intended for the mentally ill to be in the militia, that's why the militia act of 1792 (which they passed) says "all ABLED BODIED men" that includes the mind.

Originally Posted by Vexx

And the immediate loud answer should be, "yes, and so did MILLIONS of other people who have never done a violent thing in their life."

You might as well blame the availability of electricity or running water. Really, when will these "non-gaming witchhunters" get old and die?

Agree, the desire to blame these events on inanimate objects, ideas, or other things that really have nothing to do with this situation in and of themselves, needs to stop.

I agree with you Vexx about the tax to pay for a new mental health database.
It needs to happen.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Yeah, that's just stupid. Educators aren't trained to handle weapons, and there's no reason they should have to be (unless they want to be, on their own time, but that's their business, not ours).

It is just another bad idea on how to solve the issue of shooting sprees in schools, just like how some people think that if we ban violent video games, that alone will really make a difference and lead to less gun violence in America.

[GundamFan0083]

Oath Keepers to Provide Teachers With Free Self-Defense and Firearms Training
http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2012/12/...ense-training/

Dianne's hypocrisy knows no bounds:

Feinstein in 1995 on her concealed carry permit: 'I know the urge to arm yourself because that's what I did'
http://mrctv.org/videos/feinstein-19...ats-what-i-did

This woman should not be setting policy with regard to weapons of any kind.

[synaesthetic]

Mental illness isn't even the end-all, be-all of mass killings. Some of these people are perfectly sane, and yet they lash out at society anyway.

There is something fundamentally wrong that needs to be fixed, and I'd be willing to bet it has a lot to do with socioeconomic status, access to education, healthcare, good food, a stable and happy home life. The mental illness issue will work itself out once we've got real, well-funded public healthcare.

The killer in CT didn't have a stable home life, nor did his mother, who actually owned the weapons in question. His mother was a "stockpile weapons and canned goods for the coming zombie apocalypse" type, so perhaps the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree...

[Lost Cause]

GDB;Yeah, I'm sure everyone who hunts is like that. None are hicks who just go hunting so they can drink while shooting stuff. Nope, they're all noble souls who care for the poor animals. Seriously, exaggeration much?
I'm not saying there aren't "slob hunters" or poachers. What I am saying is about those who take responsibility for their actions, and take care of nature.
Oh, and I suppose if you really want an equal hunt there's always war, where men and women face each other in a battlefield. And the weapons are far out of proportion to the simple act of killing!
I think syn said it too, but allow me too repeat it, why shouldn't a hunter use a weapon that WILL humanely harvest the animal quickly and without overdue pain and suffering?

Solace: I agree that it should just be for the moment, and that "plain clothed" police should be used when possible!
Kids will eventually find out his cruel and destructive the world can be, first crushs and first loves tend to do that. But as a mother I think a little prevention/protection can't hurt either, especially in light of what just happened! I would never advocate turning school into a prison, fortress maybe, but not a prison. School should be fun and rewarding, unfortunately it will take time before this current spectre leaves and we can get back to a normal way of things.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I agree with you Vexx about the tax to pay for a new mental health database.
It needs to happen.

I dunno about a mental health database. Only if they keep track of those deemed dangerous or potentially dangerous.

The thing is, most people who are mentally ill aren't dangerous, and there are a number of conditions that cause mental illness where most of those with one of those afflictions is not a dangerous person.

For example, I have obsessive compulsive disorder. Over the years, it has been moderately bad to moderate-to-severe to severely bad, and I, like anyone with the condition, have mental health issues. The condition brings with it mental health issues, anxiety issues, and in a way, behavioral issues (since people are so strongly compelled to do compulsions). Now however, the very vast majority of people with this condition are not dangerous people. Those who are, most of them are probably so because of other reasons. This isn't like someone being a sociopath, a psychopath, or psychotic. I'm not a dangerous person. In fact, I hate violence and killing. Like I said, there are some mental illnesses which just don't really give rise to dangerous people, and there are many people with mental health issues who are not dangerous. For example, someone with really bad depression has mental health issues, but so many of them are not dangerous people. Same thing with so many who have obsessive compulsive disorder.

So, a mental health database...well, they better only put people deemed dangerous or potentially dangerous on it. If I and every American with obsessive compulsive disorder were put into a mental health database, it'd be an outrage. That'd really be stomping all over people's rights. That'd totally infringe on my rights. If that were to happen but we still weren't doing what we could to lessen the availability of guns in this society, I'd be livid. I wouldn't wanna hear about people's gun rights needing to be protected while my rights are being stomped on (if things were to happen like how I explained).

After this shooting, so many people want to give less rights to people with mental health issues, but God forbid we infringe on gun rights. Let gun owners own as many guns as they want. It isn't like the wide availability of guns has anything to do with gun violence in America.

[Vexx]

I have ADD (non-hyperactive). But yes, the *concern* with a mental health database are those lines in the sand. If I end up in the database because I dress goth black a lot, some might think that's okay and others might not.

[GundamFan0083]

Sorry for not making that clear.
A mental health database of those deemed a serious threat to society.
Like people with schizophrenia, sociopathic disorders, and psychotics.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I have ADD (non-hyperactive). But yes, the *concern* with a mental health database are those lines in the sand. If I end up in the database because I dress goth black a lot, some might think that's okay and others might not.

And now I want to see a picture of Vexx-jiji in goth black.

I'll get my coat.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Sorry for not making that clear.
A mental health database of those deemed a serious threat to society.
Like people with schizophrenia, sociopathic disorders, and psychotics.

If they make a mental health database, they are likely to only put people on there who are deemed dangerous or potentially dangerous. They'll probably get that right. But with so many idiots out there, you never know if they'll fudge it up and then have everyone with obsessive compulsive disorder listed in a database along with all the James Holmes and Jared Lee Loughners of society.

[GundamFan0083]

Well, if everything posted here wasn't enough to prove that magazine bans are completely useless, here's something that will definetly make it pointless.


The first open-source 3D-printed gun
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...3d-printed-gun

While a lower reciever only survived six shots (due to the recoil of the gun) a magazine doesn't need to be that strong.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Well, if everything posted here wasn't enough to prove that magazine bans are completely useless, here's something that will definetly make it pointless.


The first open-source 3D-printed gun
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...3d-printed-gun

While a lower reciever only survived six shots (due to the recoil of the gun) a magazine doesn't need to be that strong.

Yeah, I demonstrated to someone once both how many Glock 9mm 15round magazines I can carry in an unmodified leather jacket and how fast I can swap them out. Seriously, if you're just listening you might not hear the pause.

But ... I practice. Why? Because its a form of martial art. I also practice with my swords. Why? I dunno ... where's that comic image of what Shield Agents consider a weapon for self-defense? (coffee mugs, cats, etc)

The point is that magazine/clip restrictions aren't a panacea. Possibly helpful, but not a single point fix.