how do you deal with Anime Snobs?

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

People are kidding themselves if they don't think their own taste is the best one. We can try to have this idealized conceptualization of "everyone's opinions are equal," but that is just not true in practice. At one point or another you're going to look at someone's opinion and think that yours is just flat out better.

We all have different criteria for entertainment, and I'll be damned if I ever say that someone else's criteria is better than my own. I won't insult you for what you like, but don't expect me to sit there and not criticize what you like.

Some may call this anime snobbery, but it's just being honest. So long as you are respectful with your opinions, there should not be a problem.

Hmm, how do I word this...

On an emotional level ("emotional" might not be the best word but let's go with that for now), obviously each person thinks his or her own tastes and opinions are the best. After all, how could you disagree with your own point of view? On that point I agree with you.

However, that does not rule out the possibility of considering, on an intellectual level, that, "While I may be completely unable to understand why others like show X, I can still accept that they perhaps see something that I am unable to see from my perspective." Using a bit of meta-cognition to try to rise above subjectivity, you could say.

Though your views seem absolute to yourself, you can still take a step back and realize that these are still your opinions, and others have opinions that seem as absolute to them.

I guess what I'm saying amounts to: yes, you can actually have a discussion in practice while considering everyone's opinions as equal. You don't necessarily have to see it from someone else's point of view, but you can recognize that their point of view can be seen from i.e. it's valid (if that made any sense).

As for whether insulting an anime insults a person? If you ask me, yes, indirectly. If you tell me that my favorite anime objectively sucks, then wouldn't that be essentially telling me, "Your taste in anime is crap"? I consider that an insult. On the other hand, a simple "in my opinion" changes that from "your taste is crap" to simply "my taste disagrees with yours."

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

There's also a type of self proclaimed snob that I DO look down upon, because I do feel their tastes are inferior because they are narrow minded. Maybe you've seen them before. Here's some signs.

They use the words "pandering" "sheep" and "bandwagon" a lot. This kind of viewer professes that just because a show is popular, it MUST be crap. They feel special for being "diffrent" even if they just follow another bandwagon. And they usually follow other self appointed snobs to worship a few designated shows.

Full disclosure: my own inner snob is a (hopefully less extreme) version of that, so decide as you read this if I'm just being defensive.

Not every snob of this kind thinks correlation implies causation. Saying "show X is popular therefore it must be crap" is indeed stupid. Saying "show X is crap and its popularity just demonstrates that crap sells" is less stupid, provided (as you said) the snob can give reasons for why it's crap in the first place.

I'd like to think my taste in anime is fairly broad, but if I look at the shows I've liked enough to actively support or even just watch all the way through, they're relatively narrow. There are a lot of anime out there that simply don't appeal to me, although in fairness I might end up liking some of them if I gave them a decent chance. But the main reason I think my collection is narrow is that there isn't a hell of a lot to choose from - I can think of whole genres that would appeal to me which modern anime barely if ever goes near.

Adding insult to injury, what seems to make popular shows popular often is lowest common denominator pandering (there you go, the other tell-tale snob cliché). Fanservice is my particular gripe - for me personally it destroys what could otherwise be a good anime, yet it seems to attract popularity like sticky stuff does flies. Worse still, nearly all the shows I do care about sell poorly both in Japan and overseas (if they even get licensed), which doesn't help me suppress said inner snob.

None of this gives me the right to be obnoxious about it of course (and the nice thing about places like AnimeSuki is that you quickly get shot down in flames it you forget that). But I don't think it's pure snobbery to grumble about popular shows, provided it's more than just sour grapes.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Raiga

Hmm, how do I word this...

On an emotional level ("emotional" might not be the best word but let's go with that for now), obviously each person thinks his or her own tastes and opinions are the best. After all, how could you disagree with your own point of view? On that point I agree with you.

However, that does not rule out the possibility of considering, on an intellectual level, that, "While I may be completely unable to understand why others like show X, I can still accept that they perhaps see something that I am unable to see from my perspective." Using a bit of meta-cognition to try to rise above subjectivity, you could say.

But once you move past the emotion, it just becomes the intellectualized or what I said, "idealized" form of discussion. Intellectually, yes, we know that our own opinions are not simply worth more than others, but again, is this true in practice? Does not each person want their opinion to be worth more than others?

Originally Posted by Raiga

Though your views seem absolute to yourself, you can still take a step back and realize that these are still your opinions, and others have opinions that seem as absolute to them.

I guess what I'm saying amounts to: yes, you can actually have a discussion in practice while considering everyone's opinions as equal. You don't necessarily have to see it from someone else's point of view, but you can recognize that their point of view can be seen from i.e. it's valid (if that made any sense).

As for whether insulting an anime insults a person? If you ask me, yes, indirectly. If you tell me that my favorite anime objectively sucks, then wouldn't that be essentially telling me, "Your taste in anime is crap"? I consider that an insult. On the other hand, a simple "in my opinion" changes that from "your taste is crap" to simply "my taste disagrees with yours."

Which you seem to think it is possible in practice to do so. I mean yes, I think people can accept other people's points as valid in a discussion, but does that necessarily mean that even if we think their point is valid that we accept their points over our own?

And sure you may feel insulted by it indirectly, but the point is, you're getting insulted because person A dislikes what you like rather than person A saying something bad about you for liking that show.

[Triple_R]

I think that it's important to make a distinction here between what I would call Genre Snobbery, and what I would call a Culture of Critique.

It's easy to confuse the two, because someone presenting a comprehensive and heartfelt criticism of a particular anime show may, at times, come across as a genre snob.

There's a fair bit of genre snobbery in the anime fandom. In other words, people that look down on certain anime genres, and perhaps even their fandoms. These people also often won't give a particular anime show a chance if it's in a particular genre that they tend to dislike (magical girl, mecha, shonen, etc...).

I find this regrettable, because no anime genre is entirely incapable of producing a good quality show. That show might not be to everyone's taste, but it doesn't necessarily make it a low quality show.


However, there's also what I call a Culture of Critique. A culture of critique is one in which fans have certain expectations of what they watch. Insofar as they're not dealing with pure spoof comedy, they expect the plot to make sense. They expect characters and their actions and choices to make sense, within the broader context of the fictional work. They generally want the major protagonists to all be likable and/or entertaining and/or interesting. And so on and so forth (i.e. just think of the approach that Roger Ebert tends to take in his movie reviews).

There's nothing wrong with this sort of culture of critique, and actually, I think that it's good for a fandom to have such a culture. It's good for two reasons:

1. It leads to fans drawing quality distinctions between various offerings, which can be helpful for recommendation purposes. Suppose you're a person who's watched 150 anime shows, and one of your friends suddenly shows an interest in anime that he never showed before. Which of those 150 anime shows are you going to recommend to him? If you view all 150 as "equally good", where do you even begin? So, it's helpful to have some sort of sense of which shows have the tightest plots, the best character casts, the best stories, the best action scenes, the most heartwarming scenes, etc...

2. It helps keep professional creators honest. It helps to ensure that they don't just "mail it in", so to speak, but rather that they genuinely try to make something great and/or worthwhile. If fans have low standards, then many professional creators will be tempted to make quick and easy entertainment since they'll likely get away with it (i.e. not hear harsh fan backlash). It generally takes more effort to make something great than it does to make something mediocre.


Haruhi's Endless Eight received a lot of fan backlash. Haruhi 2009 also sold nowhere near as good as Haruhi 2006 did.

K-On's first season also received a fair bit of criticism.

This is good. This is good because it tells Kyoto Animation (and the wider anime industry that's paying attention) that fans have certain expectations of them, and that if they don't meet at least the most basic of those expectations, a price will be paid for it.

So, what do we see from Kyoto Animation shortly thereafter?

The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya movie that shows real effort on Kyoto Animation's part to make something great, and K-On's second season, where a lot of the criticisms of the first season is soundly addressed, imo.


It's good for a fandom to have a culture of critique, because criticizing poor efforts is just as instructive (to creators) as lauding excellent efforts are.


So, I disagree with genre snobbery, but I support there being a culture of critique. I know that it can bother some fans when one of their favorite shows are put under the microscope of such a culture of critique, but I think that the pros outweigh the cons there. At the end of the day, every fan has a right to like whatever they want to like, and I would never deny that. Even a show with many flaws can have elements to it that are appealing to many people. And that's great. But that doesn't mean that the flaws should be ignored, imo.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Raiga

As for whether insulting an anime insults a person? If you ask me, yes, indirectly. If you tell me that my favorite anime objectively sucks, then wouldn't that be essentially telling me, "Your taste in anime is crap"? I consider that an insult. On the other hand, a simple "in my opinion" changes that from "your taste is crap" to simply "my taste disagrees with yours."

That's not a positive way of looking at it. You're saying that you'd assume someone to be calling out an anime as objectively bad unless they say "in my opinion". While it's a nice thing to say, you should realize that most of the time we're judging an anime on the basis on opinion by default. Why do we have to validate ourselves? I think it's best to assume someone is saying "my taste disagrees with yours".

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

But once you move past the emotion, it just becomes the intellectualized or what I said, "idealized" form of discussion. Intellectually, yes, we know that our own opinions are not simply worth more than others, but again, is this true in practice? Does not each person want their opinion to be worth more than others?

"Worth more than others'" how so? At least when it comes to entertainment media, I'm perfectly fine with others having wildly different tastes and opinions from myself and I won't consider those inferior points of view. I enjoy what I enjoy, you enjoy what you enjoy, and there's no reason for me to feel superior just because I enjoy something different.

Which you seem to think it is possible in practice to do so. I mean yes, I think people can accept other people's points as valid in a discussion, but does that necessarily mean that even if we think their point is valid that we accept their points over our own?

I never said that we'd accept others' over our own, only that as you said, we could acknowledge them as valid in discussion and perhaps in the end mark it down to a difference in preference. If that's not what you were talking about then I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

And sure you may feel insulted by it indirectly, but the point is, you're getting insulted because person A dislikes what you like rather than person A saying something bad about you for liking that show.

Originally Posted by Tempester

That's not a positive way of looking at it. You're saying that you'd assume someone to be calling out an anime as objectively bad unless they say "in my opinion". While it's a nice thing to say, you should realize that most of the time we're judging an anime on the basis on opinion by default. Why do we have to validate ourselves? I think it's best to assume someone is saying "my taste disagrees with yours".

Perhaps, but I'm very big on precise communication and so I tend to take what people say at face value. And if you ask me, you're far more likely to spark an intelligent discussion if you say "I disliked X because Y" and far more likely to spark a flamewar and mudslinging if you say "X is trash."

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Tempester

You're saying that you'd assume someone to be calling out an anime as objectively bad unless they say "in my opinion". While it's a nice thing to say, you should realize that most of the time we're judging an anime on the basis on opinion by default.

I'm sorry to give others so little credit, but the way we present our opinions is important, even though we all should think of them as only opinions. I remember relentlessflame making a post on the subject (maybe someone can link to it?), and the gist of it was that phrasing opinions as a matter of fact is what sets off most forum wars. Possessing good language skills is crucial in shaping a discussion. One common trick would be adding an "in my opinion" somewhere in the sentence structure, and I know it begins to feel and sound instructive over time, but it may help to remind other discussion participants of this fact as the discussion progresses.

I like to use E-Prime whenever I engage in a very touchy subject, that is I refrain from using the verb '"to be" in any form, because it's proned to leave an impression of absoluteness of opinion.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by cyth

I remember relentlessflame making a post on the subject (maybe someone can link to it?)

I believe I already did:

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I think this is a more complicated question than at first appears, and is related to a thread started about a year and a half ago by relentlessflame:

Do you consider yourself an "Anime Critic"?

There's been a number of constructive comments, but I don't have time to dwell on all of them, so I'll just go through a few of them briefly and perhaps come back later to elaborate if need be.

(1)

Originally Posted by Yuna Amakura

I really don't care about them. It's their opinion against mine, so there's no right or wrong in the process.

I strongly disagree with the above. While it's true that there's no "right" or "wrong" between different opinions, especially when they are based on subjective feeling rather than objective fact, it's still the case that some opinions are simply worth more than others.

How so? Because some people make the effort to substantiate their opinions, allowing others to evaluate the process by which they formed their beliefs. This way, it's possible for others to decide how to value your judgment. The greater the insight you provide, the better regarded your thoughts will be.

To believe otherwise is to fall into the relativist trap that plagues so much of modern thought today: the idea that because everyone's entitled to his or her opinion, it would be wrong to criticise an opinion even when it's patently flawed.

That is the root of banal political correctness, and the surest road to self-censorship. Not a healthy way to build critical awareness, I dare wager.

(2)

Originally Posted by Raiga

As for whether insulting an anime insults a person? If you ask me, yes, indirectly. If you tell me that my favorite anime objectively sucks, then wouldn't that be essentially telling me, "Your taste in anime is crap"? I consider that an insult. On the other hand, a simple "in my opinion" changes that from "your taste is crap" to simply "my taste disagrees with yours."

Pardon my French, but the above is bullshit.

That is precisely the kind of view I was deliberately attacking in my earlier post. I make no apologies for hurting other people's feelings just because I criticised what they adore. It's not ad hominem, after all. I did not set out to attack such people, so why should I be held responsible if they choose to take offence in this case? My advice to them: Grow a thicker skin.

(3)

Originally Posted by cyth

Reading this thread, I can't help but think some of the posters simply can't stand strong opinions. Granted, be wary of the trolls, but honestly... I've found some of the most enlightening of criticism in the most disgusting of vitriol that can be found on the internet.

That said, I do believe in the need for civility. While it's OK to get embroiled in a heated exchange — which is always bound to occur if you're truly passionate about the subject — it's always good to know when to take a timeout to cool frayed tempers, smooth ruffled feathers and mend broken fences.

Yes, it's hard to know when and where to draw the line, but that's part and parcel of debating. You'll learn from experience when to back off, and when to press the issue with everything you've got.

My most recent experience would be in the Hourou Musuko thread, when I expressed my dislike for the show because I found it too "warm and fluffy" for its heavy-hitting subject.

I stand by my opinion. In hindsight, I realise what else I could have elaborated to substantiate my points (I find the portrayal too manipulative; viewers are being fed a point of view that is calculated to elicit sympathy; to me, that's either laziness or cynicism on the writer's part). I felt I'd been pretty reasonable with my criticism but, even so, Kaoru Chujo (whose opinions I highly respect) took offence.

That was my cue to lay off the line of argument. So I did.

In the end, it's the Internet: Don't get so worked up over a virtual argument; it's not worth it.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The kind of anime snobs I have grown to hate are those that tries to force their standards for quality onto people, those who complains ALL THE TIME about young anime fans' terrible tastes and rub it onto their faces ("See? You are young! YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD ABOUT IT!") and finally those who expect the industry to churn out more anime of the same quality as, let's say, LoGH (I like LoGH mind you) ALL THE TIME and whine that the industry can't appear to do, without understanding of the demand, supply and context (you cannot reasonably expect a LoGH-like every seasons the same way a fantasy fan cannot expect another herculean LoTR-like from the cinema industry every year). Nobody is natually born with good tastes, as much as no one else have developped sharp criticism ability from the womb. It's something everyone develop through education and also exposition to diverse point of views and materials, in the same way as wine tasting is something that have to be worked and refined; and the entertainment industry need a special context, financial and industrial, with a particular pool of talents to be able to churn out The Big Anime, that would be the public and critics' darling. If one claims to have objectivity and perfect refined tastes, but takes on the attitudes I described, it is my right to call them posers and tossers.

Ah, tunnel vision snobs. I actually consider those of inferior taste just because their definition of quality is so narrow and they'd rather cling to the past and berate everyone for not doing the same. It was always better 5 years ago. Those same people were pretty annoying 5 years ago as well.

It's foolish to call one's tastes perfectly refined with absolute objectivity. No one person can do that.

Originally Posted by Simon

Full disclosure: my own inner snob is a (hopefully less extreme) version of that, so decide as you read this if I'm just being defensive.

Not every snob of this kind thinks correlation implies causation. Saying "show X is popular therefore it must be crap" is indeed stupid. Saying "show X is crap and its popularity just demonstrates that crap sells" is less stupid, provided (as you said) the snob can give reasons for why it's crap in the first place.

Why yes, if you actually have reasons and not rants and insults that would make a lot of sense. I think those people who can express it like that are intelligent people that I actually wish to associate with. The main problem with the more pretentious snobs are that they are merely fools that just hang onto another bandwagon. It's very hard for me to take it seriously.

When I see garbage reviews like the Nanoha review on Animenewsnetwork, which comes off as more of a rant with little consideration of context and complete inability to shrug off bias, I just facepalm and just think "wow, why should i care about this person's tastes."

I'd like to think my taste in anime is fairly broad, but if I look at the shows I've liked enough to actively support or even just watch all the way through, they're relatively narrow. There are a lot of anime out there that simply don't appeal to me, although in fairness I might end up liking some of them if I gave them a decent chance. But the main reason I think my collection is narrow is that there isn't a hell of a lot to choose from - I can think of whole genres that would appeal to me which modern anime barely if ever goes near.

Considering that we've gotten oversaturated with shows of a certain type over the years, this is only natural. This is a valid gripe.

Adding insult to injury, what seems to make popular shows popular often is lowest common denominator pandering (there you go, the other tell-tale snob cliché). Fanservice is my particular gripe - for me personally it destroys what could otherwise be a good anime, yet it seems to attract popularity like sticky stuff does flies. Worse still, nearly all the shows I do care about sell poorly both in Japan and overseas (if they even get licensed), which doesn't help me suppress said inner snob.

Nothing inherently wrong with this. Anything used inappropriately is going to tank a show. And that could make a show suck, and people suck for supporting it. That's actually what I think, but as long as one keeps the analysis to the merits of the show, it'll be fine.

None of this gives me the right to be obnoxious about it of course (and the nice thing about places like AnimeSuki is that you quickly get shot down in flames it you forget that). But I don't think it's pure snobbery to grumble about popular shows, provided it's more than just sour grapes.

It's not. As long as one goes after a show for being crap, instead of being popular.

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Pardon my French, but the above is bullshit.

That is precisely the kind of view I was deliberately attacking in my earlier post. I make no apologies for hurting other people's feelings just because I criticised what they adore. It's not ad hominem, after all. I did not set out to attack such people, so why should I be held responsible if they choose to take offence in this case? My advice to them: Grow a thicker skin.

Perhaps it's just my personal philosophy, but I see no reason not to avoid potentially offending someone over something that you didn't mean, when one or two extra words could have clarified it and still let you say exactly the same thing you wanted to say in the first place. If you really want a critical discussion, then I'd say the responsibility lies equally on the person who opened up the topic not to say it in an inflammatory way.

It's mostly that some people really do mean to say "This is bad and you should feel bad for liking it" and one or two words would differentiate you from those people. I'm not accusing anyone of trying to insult people-- but certain wording can sure make it sound that way.

As I said, my beef is mostly about clear communication. For example, there's a definite difference between "The animation quality was bad" and "I disliked the animation style," but people often use them interchangeably. I dislike that because it's simply inaccurate; if there's a good budget and on-model animation you can't really say the quality was bad, only that it didn't appeal to you. When cabbages start being drawn as spheres and characters start losing their heads, then you have a case for the former.

[Yuna Amakura]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I strongly disagree with the above. While it's true that there's no "right" or "wrong" between different opinions, especially when they are based on subjective feeling rather than objective fact, it's still the case that some opinions are simply worth more than others.

How so? Because some people make the effort to substantiate their opinions, allowing others to evaluate the process by which they formed their beliefs. This way, it's possible for others to decide how to value your judgment. The greater the insight you provide, the better regarded your thoughts will be.

To believe otherwise is to fall into the relativist trap that plagues so much of modern thought today: the idea that because everyone's entitled to his or her opinion, it would be wrong to criticise an opinion even when it's patently flawed.

That is the root of banal political correctness, and the surest road to self-censorship. Not a healthy way to build critical awareness, I dare wager.

I disagree with you, and that's that. After reading many opinions throughout the internet, I've come to the conclusion that even the substantial opinions should not be taken so seriously. If you want to criticize other people's opinions because you believe they are patently flawed, then do it, but I don't see any sense in that and I don't agree with you.

[Dragonar Fan]

I punched someone square in the face who said Dragonar sucks, but that was impulsive & just EVIL, however turned out the person i punched was told to do that , became comrades, after an apology & labor, then went off to basically pull an evil prank on someone who never even watched it & just used someone for their dirty work, i suppose..

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

People are kidding themselves if they don't think their own taste is the best one. We can try to have this idealized conceptualization of "everyone's opinions are equal," but that is just not true in practice. At one point or another you're going to look at someone's opinion and think that yours is just flat out better.

We all have different criteria for entertainment, and I'll be damned if I ever say that someone else's criteria is better than my own. I won't insult you for what you like, but don't expect me to sit there and not criticize what you like.

Some may call this anime snobbery, but it's just being honest. So long as you are respectful with your opinions, there should not be a problem.



Sorry bro, Rebuild is trash.

So you came to that conclusion too eh? It really is the best philosophy I think because there's zero pressure and everyone ultimately wins in the end as long as they stick to it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Haruhi's Endless Eight received a lot of fan backlash. Haruhi 2009 also sold nowhere near as good as Haruhi 2006 did.

K-On's first season also received a fair bit of criticism.

This is good. This is good because it tells Kyoto Animation (and the wider anime industry that's paying attention) that fans have certain expectations of them, and that if they don't meet at least the most basic of those expectations, a price will be paid for it.

So, what do we see from Kyoto Animation shortly thereafter?

The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya movie that shows real effort on Kyoto Animation's part to make something great, and K-On's second season, where a lot of the criticisms of the first season is soundly addressed, imo.


It's good for a fandom to have a culture of critique, because criticizing poor efforts is just as instructive (to creators) as lauding excellent efforts are.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call bad example on this. The theory that the production side needs to be held to some sort of standard I'm okay with, the example of the relationship between Kyoto Animation and it's fans however I'd have to call among the worst examples for this idea.

Indeed Kyoto Animation did suffer something of a backlash on account of it's lack of content and they paid something of a price in terms of lower media sales compared to the first season, but it's in the reaction to Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi that we run into something of a problem. A common bit of commentary on the movie that I see repeated quite regularly is that because the movie is a serviceable product by the core fandoms standards it means that all issues the fandom had with the prior season 2 are nullified, Kyoto Animation is freed of any fault or lingering failure, and presumably, although we have yet to see it and this is just a presumption based on my history of observation, that core fanbase goes back to giving the studio what continues to look to me like unconditional love and praise by default. This to me doesn't send a message to Kyoto Animation that they will be held to account for any works lacking in quality, but rather sends the message that as long as they put out something serviceable every now and then they will be loved and praised regardless of whatever else they put out that might not be up to par with their potential. Add this to the fact that I rarely see any Kyoto Animation series criticized for much of anything (IRL with friends is a completely different story however) when I personally can come up with a bunch of examples for anything they have done where there is plenty of room for improvement and we have something of a problem.

Basically when it comes to the whole Kyoto Animation scene it looks more like it's core fandom are looking for any reason to let them off the hook for shortcomings and to keep their image within said core fandom as polished and free of blemish or accountability as possible, not to hold them to a high standard if they are to remain in the public favour. For this reason I can't call it a good example. Why not try a Hockey analogy instead?

I've got one. Kyoto Animations relationship with it's core fanbase resembles the Toronto Maple Leafs and their fans in my eyes. No matter if they play poorly and get shut out (Munto, Haruhi 2009) or play well enough to win the game (Haruhi, DoHS) they're still out there every game (lots of attention for series by anime fans, own sub-forum granted seemingly by default etc.), to cheer them on (general discourse you can find in said sub-forum looks like cheerleading) and ready to say at the start of each season before the first puck of the first game has dropped that this time they'll make the playoffs and win the cup (carry anime into whatever era is to come and make the "best show of the season" TM) even though deep down we all know that's not going to happen because Phil Kessel is too predictable (safe moe shows seemingly all the time as their big push) and he's the best thing they've got going in terms of generating chances (their safe moe shows are generally lucrative) even though he's like a -19 due to being caught up ice while cherry picking (putting all your eggs in one basket is risky....ask the New Jersey Devils) all the time.

[0utf0xZer0]

While K-On! season two fixed a lot of the things that people were critical of in the original, I don't think this happened because of criticism of season one's shortcomings. Rather, I get the impression that season two was closer to what the director wanted to do in the first place - remember, even in season one she cut a lot of the fanservice from the manga. Kyoto simply gave her more resources and creative freedom this time on account of season one's sales. Which actually raises the question of whether season two would have turned out worse if season one hadn't been such a runaway hit.

As for Disappearance, I don't really see a point to punishing it for Endless Eight's failings. Slightly over the top running time aside, I enjoyed Disappearance immensely, something that was true of Haruhi season 1 but only of one season two episode (Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

While K-On! season two fixed a lot of the things that people were critical of in the original, I don't think this happened because of criticism of season one's shortcomings.

Why not?

Don't you think it's possible that some of the criticisms of K-On!'s first season reached the ears of its own Director, and hence she took them into account when working on the second season?

In any event, are you saying that you dispute one of my core points that critical reactions from fans can help to motivate creators to make the best works that they can?

Rather, I get the impression that season two was closer to what the director wanted to do in the first place

Where do you get that impression from?

- remember, even in season one she cut a lot of the fanservice from the manga.

If anything, this shows that the Director, even in the first season, already had substantial free reign in how she could handle the anime adaptation of K-On. Hence, I find your argument a bit moot. Even in season one, Kyoto was already giving her plenty of creative freedom. Now, they may have given her more resources to work with when it came to season two (which likely improved overall visual quality), but I certainly don't get the impression that Kyoto was limiting her on a creative level in the first season. Quite the contrary, in fact.

As for Disappearance, I don't really see a point to punishing it for Endless Eight's failings. Slightly over the top running time aside, I enjoyed Disappearance immensely, something that was true of Haruhi season 1 but only of one season two episode (Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody).

I agree. I assume that this part was addressed to Kaioshin?

[solomon]

By many definitons I qualify for what some would call an "anime snob". I generally only keep to certain studios or directors that pique my interests.

The anime industry is what it is, i've been a fan for over 10 years, what can I say, I am jaded.

Seeing as how for me, anime is a stand in for regular television which has an equal amount of shit to gold ratio (for scripted television anyway, it's snobby but i just can't stand reality tv).

As for others, who gives a crap? Watch what you watch, and let others be. I can admit that some of us anime fans can get real uppity over what we think is truly "great anime".

After all, I NEVER use the words "masterpiece" or anything as haughty like that for anime because I'm not Siskel nor a creator. Plus when you get right down to it, I don't think the creators really want us to look at much of their works like that anyways. I keep that kinda mentality generally for when I go to the art museum, 'cause if I didn't, I could never enjoy watching High School of the Dead.

[jcdietz03]

How many series must one dislike before they are a snob?
This website lists 28 series that will air on TV this season. Of those I'm interested in 6. Snob?

I pay the most attention to premise (the blurb, either on that site or anidb) when deciding. I don't watch anything SHAFT - I think they troll too much. That's the only qualifier.

I tend to go for shows with the highest production value. I think we all do at least to some extent, and that is not a problem, nor does it make us snobs. We all want our favorite show to be produced as well as possible, but that can't always happen in the real world. I think for this season Star Driver has the highest production value, but you can never really be sure.

[0utf0xZer0]

@Triple_R:

I shouldn't so much say that Kyoto gave her more creative reign as the structure she was working within gave her more free reign.

In season one, she was working with 13 episode and had to cover the key "introductory" events from the manga. In season two, she had 26 episodes (that's the resources bit at play IMO) and had already covered those events. Now, I haven't actually read the K-On! manga to compare, but I have a hunch that season one probably stuck a lot closer to the source material.

Second, I think we can both agree that a big reason season two is better is because it fleshes out characters that stuck very close to archetype in season one. I remember hearing a quote from the director along the lines of "you don't really have to try and make girls moe, they naturally are", which doesn't really strike me as the words of someone prone to playing up a character's moe points.

So from my perspective, it's hard to say that fan response really played a role when I think the director wanted to go that way anyway.

As for the last bit, yeah, its addressed more to Kaioshin. I thought Kyoto's 2010 output was great regardless of how bad or good their 2003-2009 output was.

[Genten]

Since I've read quite a few blogs and cruised around a few forums I am very familiar with anime snobbery. It's not something that's fun to watch.

I define anime snobbery as many things. First, I think that someone who states that a series is trash/rubbish/shit/etc without explaining why they dislike the series is an anime snob. For example, I once saw a review on Moribito. One of the posts in the response thread stated that 'Moribito is awful and I want my time back', or something along those lines. That was all that was written. That is anime snobbery: you simply say that an anime is awful without explaining any of your problems with it. I'm not asking you to write a ten page paper on the merits and problems of a certain anime but it would be nice if you listed more than a sentence for your opinion.

The second type of anime snob is the person who will attack other people for what they like and consider themselves a better person because they like something different. Sure, we all get feelings of superiority when someone states that they're watching Death Note and you're watching Eden of the East. That's fine, it's a familiar experiance among all fans. Crossing the line is when you declare someone a horrible anime fan because they don't watch/dislike show X, Y, or Z. Not everyone has the same tastes and just because you like different anime doesn't make you a better person.

The last type of anime snobbery is declaring that genre Q is killing the industry or declaring that anime from the 90s is better than all anime produced this decade, no exceptions. Many people, when they complain that something is killing the industry, simply dislike the genre/style and think that everyone else should dislike it too. Is moe really killing the industry? I'd wager no. Do lots of fans like to complain that it is? Yes, and I've seen numerous examples of this happening. Lastly, and this is related to the killing the industry thing, are the people that complain that anime got worse after (usually) the year 2000. Every anime produced past that point is awful and we should all go back to 90s anime. The thing that stunts this arguement the most is that we all tend to look back on the past with nostalgia glasses.

As for my own anime snobbery, I try not to let it escape too often. People can watch different shows than I do and like different things than I do and it's fine. I try to ignore threads that are brimming with snobbery and are just waiting to descend into flame wars. Basically, the best way for me to avoid expressing snobbery, and to avoid snobs themselves, is to stay away from topics that would incite that behavior. It usually works

[2H-Dragon]

Anime snobs . Can't say I ever met them. The only people I know that watch Anime are casual watchers(meaning Naruto, One piece and maybe Bleach).

Though in my honest opinion there are certain genre's are populated with imo clichéd and superficial anime. Sure there there genre's I don't like, but I can I still see why it's rated by other people. Still certain over-the-top moeblob series can get so pants on head retarded I fail to see how something like that be could be better than certain Gibhli works. Even though I'd personally rather watch Lucky Star than Princess Mononoke(which I like a lot).