Mai-Otome Romantic Relationships (Possible Spoilers)

[Ronbo]

Just to set the record straight.
In Japan the age of consent is 13 nationwide, 16 to 18 in most prefectures; however, age of marriage for a female with parental approval is 16.

Ref: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Age_of_consent

What does the age of consent mean?
The age of consent is the age when the law says you can agree to have sex. In most countries, until you reach this age you can't legally have sex with anyone, however old they are. Sometimes the law is slightly different when the partners are of a similar age, but there is usually still a minimum age below which sex is always illegal.

What is statutory rape?
Statutory rape is the crime that someone can be charged with if they have sex with a person who has not reached the age of consent but who agrees to have sex.

So long as both consenting partners are over the minimum age then differences in age, no matter how great they may be, does not legally matter! Socially it may be frowned upon, but no law either civil or criminal would have been broken.

Since this is Japanese Anime one would assume that any relationships portrayed would follow Japanese law. However! Mai Otome takes place off earth and therefore may have its own set of rules to follow given artistic license in a fantasy story.

[Eclipze]

Can we just....stop this debate and wait for the episode 16 thread?

We have people mis-reading each other, causing conflict. And yes, we have enough information about the laws of consent in japan, so no need to present even more.

Lets come straight to the point:
1) Its normal for a girl Arika's age to have a crush on an older man.
2) Its better for the older man(Sergey) to reject these feelings(which he did).
3) We're talking about ArikaXSergey relatonship, not nessasarily sex.
4) Though Arika has shown to be immature about relationships, the same can not be said about all teens.
5) There exists adults who are more immature than teens in relationships.
6) There exists teens who are more mature than adults in relationships.
7) We do not know the laws of the world of Mai Otome, especially not about age of consent.

Point 5 and 6 are literally the same thing, just want to make it clear.

Now can we stop?

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

3) We're talking about ArikaXSergey relatonship, not nessasarily sex.

Have you tried to tell a 25 yr old man that he shouldn't have sex with his girlfriend?? Or even any man who is between the ages of 16-25 and is in a romantic relationship with a woman? I think to say that their romantic relationship would not include sex is a tad unrealistic. If, however, their relationship was one of friendship or a father/daughter one, then that would make more sense.

4) Though Arika has shown to be immature about relationships, the same can not be said about all teens.

If I recall correctly, this discussion was only supposed to focus on just Arika and not teens in general. Things got wayyyy off track.

[imperialmog]

It is true that the relationship seems more like a father/daughter relationship.

Maybe I am just the only guy then who a romantic relationship without sex. Then again, I haven't had a relationship since I was 16.

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by imperialmog

It is true that the relationship seems more like a father/daughter relationship.

Maybe I am just the only guy then who a romantic relationship without sex. Then again, I haven't had a relationship since I was 16.

It has always been the unspoken rule, I guess, that romance led to marriage which in turn lead to procreation. I suppose one could have a romantic relationship without sex but would you really want the object of your affection to go somewhere else to have their desires taken care of?

[Asianknight82]

I dont think Arika, is gonna run off and sleep with some random dude. And I think Sergey has enough self control to wait till "marriage" if that was the case. He has shown incredible restraint so far.

And as for my personal experience, since I started taking my engagment seriously 2 yrs ago. She told me she doesnt want to have sex till we were married. I totally respect that, and Ive stood by her decision since. Not all people have plug or get their hole plug every chance they get. Im sure there are other people out there that have had similar experiences. Although its been hard these past few years, I say its well worth it, but thats just me.

[KiraDouji]

Originally Posted by Kieli

I found no logic in the statement that precipated my being offended. None.

Like the fact that this statement makes no sense unless you correct the wording and is even then more than a little vague?

Originally Posted by Kieli

Thus you cannot use logic against me for a statement that had no logic to begin with. It sounded and looked to me like slandering a particular group of people. Had you left you the word "Americans" and not used any particular group, I might not have cared.

.... The discussion was pertaining to American values and Japanese values, thus I used Americans and a Japanese company. And whatever slander you found there you were looking for. Something squeaking American's isn't slander. The relationship between Arika and Sergey is leaning on taboo in American views. A point which you've more than proven in your own posts. How, exactly, is that statement slander?

Originally Posted by Kieli

But you feel it's ok to insult someone and you're the better person for it but I make a statement about something being very obvious and I am belitting. IMHO, that is hypocritical.

I don't know where you're getting this "better person" BS. The only thing I ever touched on is that your attitude is annoying and snarky. Yes that is my opinion. Yes that is something I have to deal with. No, that doesn't stop me from stating my opinion and explaining why I feel that way.

Originally Posted by Kieli

I made a statement that Arika's behaviour has not been shown to be mature and thus my opinion. You're comparing apples to oranges, logically speaking.

I'm not comparing anything. Where the heck are you getting this? I agreed with you on that statement. Arika is immature and doesn't know how to handle her emotions. How much clearer do I have to be? Why do you think I'm arguing this point with you?

Originally Posted by kieli

To use your quote, if it comes off as snarky, that's your problem, not mine. I'm not excessively belitting, trust me.

Hon, take as much offense as you like to the statement "I don't trust you one bit" as you like. You have given me no reason to take your word on anything at all. In fact, you've done nothing but attack me and reply with a holier than thou attitude to every one of my posts. Our original debate was something I had enjoyed having up until the very last posts when you decided that I wasn't worth your dogs time. Pretend it isn't true all you want, but I made one post that wasn't even directed at you and you got up in arms over nothing. I really had nothing against you until you started this and frankly I wish you hadn't.

Originally Posted by kieli

I disagree with many of the arguments presented but do not feel that all of it was logically stated. Some, not all. But you and I have been round and round with what you deem as logical and what I do not, fallacies notwithstanding.

And they don't stand. To date the only "fallacy" you've ever accused me of having was a fallacy that was impossible to apply to my logic given that it applied to a middle term which I had not presented. That case aside, I don't know how you can think that something as innocuous as a comparison of values is slander and yet fling vieled insults left and right and not feel hypocritical yourself.

Originally Posted by kieli

I have NUMEROUS times to the point of being redundant.

Perhaps saying the same thing over and over again is the problem. Try something different?

Originally Posted by kieli

I have even done so in other threads and referred to them. It seems no one wishes to read them, nor read my proof given to support my arguments. I am simply "wrong", and that's all there is to it, apparently.

Many of the people who have debated your points have specifically given counter examples and evidence to what you present. That's not someone just saying "you're wrong" that's someone saying "I disagree and here is why". If you see it as people attacking only your opinion, well, perhaps that's the reason these arguments continue on like this. Many people on this board have disagreed on many things and let them lie, not taken up arms to each other.

Originally Posted by kieli

I'm not blaming anyone. That would require me to directly accuse, something I have not done and the implication is spurious.

Originally Posted by kieli

The focus got off tangent by people arguing about generalities I wasn't initially speaking of.

So long as it's not you, I suppose.

Originally Posted by kieli

As for the miscommunication part, you've not addressed the other side, merely mine. If miscommunication is a two way street, is that also implying that the other side of the argument is also involved?

Yes, and I believe I have pointed out each time that I am confused about what you are trying to say, so what, exactly, is the point of this reply?

Originally Posted by kieli

I never said my personal experiences were the end all, be all. They are examples just like yours are. However, we're talking about a specific age group, between the ages of say 12-17, and it takes a certain level of experience and maturation to appreciate a meaningful relationship.

It is that assumption that people are arguing. You're treating it as fact while others debate it. That is the largest issue taken with your argument.

Originally Posted by kieli

These things I don't think kids in this age group have just yet overall, though there are some exceptions, for whatever reasons or however they came by those experiences. There are some good books on this subject.
Terry Apter's The Myth of Maturity is one such book. There are even articles related to the maturity in teens below:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040508/bob9.asp

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...enagers/dn6738

http://www.nap.edu/html/adolescent/ (This one is about adolescent decision making)

Not everyone feels the need to reference literature they may or may not agree with. This does not and should not affect how someone has presented their argument. You found a published author who shares the same views as you. That's great. I disagree with some of these views, as do others, and we've given our reasons. That is also great. I think we have firmly established, at this point, that there are two sides to this fence and no one wants to cross it.

Originally Posted by kieli

It is obvious to me that there is a really big difference between having relations between someone closer to your age and a teen having relations with a man or woman 10-15 years there senior. There is a huge gap in maturity, experience, what have you. There are laws on statutory rape for a reason! I'm sure these countries didn't make them up arbitrarily. They are there to protect the child against the possibility of being taken advantage of. These concepts are not difficult to comprehend IMO, despite the handful of precocious teens. While they may be mature in intelligence, they may not necessarily be mature all around.

It is not an obvious assumption to everyone, particularly the dissentors. You know what else isn't difficult to comprehend? Someone agreeing that the laws are there for a reason and we understand them, but that it's still possible for a teenager to have a healthy romantic relationship with a significant other who may be older than them. I'd bet my left foot that the majority of adults who enter into such relationships aren't mature all around. There is the concept of growing through a relationship, which you invariably need to do anyway as you and your partner change. Having five more years under your belt doesn't necessarilly mean you'll make better decisions, so why is it that you seem to think that not having that five years extra experience means that a person is incapable of rendering good judgement?

Originally Posted by kieli

That being said, I've said all I'm going to on this issue. I think I've been more than clear on my personal stance.

As have others. My point here is that, as I've said, there is a quite evident division of thought among the readers of this board, and that we should be respecting each other's opinions. You have your opinion. You have stated why, although in ways that many including myself cannot follow the logic of all the time. I have stated my opinion wherein I disagree agree with you. I have stated why, although you do not always agree or follow my logic. Great. So, let's agree to disagree, shall we?

Originally Posted by kieli

Unfortunately it is now part of the plot and that disturbs me. But I do agree with the rest of your statement. This is where the maturity comes in. He really needs to decide what the consequences of his actions will be in the long run. Arika has no clue and is just running headlong into situations, following her feelings, much like a good many teenagers do, exceptions notwithstanding.

Change that "teenagers" to "people" and I agree completely.

- Kira

[Catgirls]

I'm going to lock this thread for now as it seems to have slipped somewhat off topic. If there's a big out cry, I'll open it back up. I would suggest some of you finish up your conversations via private messages. Lots of good stuff here and I don't mean to cut anyone off short, but it's ranging (and has been) out of the Otome universe and into reality a bit too much.

Cheers.

[Yazakura]

Just pick your pairing favorite! Me? I picked Arika/Nina, then my other choices would be Eristen/Nina, Arika/Nina, Natsuki/Shizuru, and FINALLY, Haruka/Yukino. That's what I love about the manga. They've actually gotten more than one scene it it!

[Catgirls]

Originally Posted by Yazakura

Just pick your pairing favorite! Me? I picked Arika/Nina, then my other choices would be Eristen/Nina, Arika/Nina, Natsuki/Shizuru, and FINALLY, Haruka/Yukino. That's what I love about the manga. They've actually gotten more than one scene it it!

We had a thread about possible relationships and it ended in a flame war. Let's not go there again.