Toradora! - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by frubam

1) Like intentionally trying to come on to Ryuuji with the extra intention of making Taiga angry, perhaps trying to take him away from Taiga, attacking Taiga with mental abuse, and/or throwing a girl who can't swim into a deep pool is any better. Taiga doesn't always have the best personality(personally, I don't mind her at any time), but neither does Ami.

It's normal both in the anime and real life to trying make your rival jealous as a joke or real intend.
Then Ryuuji is not a "thing", so she obviously can't "take" him, can she?
The whole class was throwing each other into the pool at that time, so that's a silly joke that they as the whole failed to notice.

2)Read past the obvious words. Everyone at that table knows Taiga's personality, so it's nothing to get up-in-arms about. If this was the beginning of the series, it'd be one thing. That's like saying in Fruits Basket, everytime Kyo gets mad and calls Tohru stupid, he's insulting her. It's obvious that that's his way of showing he cares about her(in which overtime, if Shigure didn't explain it, Tohru already knew it). Same situation.

How many people (as both real and anime characters) you see call others(and themselves) "baka". Then same question but how many uses "dog". Obviously, there is a reason that some words can be used but others can't
You said Kitamura and Ami have already expected Taiga is treating Ryuuji as a dog (literally) and Ryuuji accepts it?
The only one who doesn't mind such words is Minori because she doesn't take things so serious all the time

[Darknemo2000]

frubam, did Ami knew that Taiga cannot swim? I think she didn't thats why the whole thing is not as bad (yeah a joke but it happens, as if you haven't been pushed into a pool/water at least once). While Taiga pulling off her bikini was intended and knowing full cruelty of that. they are bit different so you cant compare those two acts.

Too bad that some interesting bits were ignored oh well, can't put everything into it, I guess. Specilly not with such ridiculous pace.

Mind you taht even in anime-terms such the way Taiga is acting looks weird and rather abusing to others. Remember that Ami questioned why actually Ryuuji allows Taiga so much. Meaning taht she thinks Taiga is going overboard and yet Ryuuji allows her which she wonders why. So even in anime standards Taiga's acts are not nice.

[Avacado Burger]

Loved this episode. Especially with the brief underwater combat, followed by a bikini top being ripped off somewhere in there

Also could this


Be the next


?

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Basically her yelling them out was too much. Specially because just an episode ago in a scene where in scene where her possessiveness was also questioned, she juts basically shrugged it off.

If she was feeling them at such strength as it is showed at the pool then her reaction would have been stronger and would not have been so fast forgotten.

I don't know which scene you're refering to, but I wouldn't think it would measure up to the anger and 'love'[using the word loosely here] she felt at that moment, when she felt that everyone other than herself left Ryuuji to technically drown after receiving encouragement from him(now that I think about it, why the hell didn't the guys that hit him help him back up? Plot-hole ?)

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

It's normal both in the anime and real life to trying make your rival jealous as a joke or real intend.
Then Ryuuji is not a "thing", so she obviously can't "take" him, can she?
The whole class was throwing each other into the pool at that time, so that's a silly joke that they as the whole failed to notice.

How many people (as both real and anime characters) you see call others(and themselves) "baka". Then same question but how many uses "dog". Obviously, there is a reason that some words can be used but others can't
You said Kitamura and Ami have already expected Taiga is treating Ryuuji as a dog (literally) and Ryuuji accepts it?
The only one who doesn't mind such words is Minori because she doesn't take things so serious all the time

It's not normal to degrade someone you just met just because you think you're better that her. Besides, Taiga was just getting her payback by doing the same thing Ami did to her, unexpectantly toss her into the pool.

I'm saying that they understand that Taiga cares for Ryuuji more than her words normally express. As far as Minorin goes, Taiga has already expressed how much Ryuuji does for her, which is why Minorin "left it" to Ryuuji. Ami and Kitamura has observed it as well.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

frubam, did Ami knew that Taiga cannot swim? I think she didn't thats why the whole thing is not as bad (yeah a joke but it happens, as if you haven't been pushed into a pool/water at least once). While Taiga pulling off her bikini was intended and knowing full cruelty of that. they are bit different so you cant compare those two acts.

Too bad that some interesting bits were ignored oh well, can't put everything into it, I guess. Specilly not with such ridiculous pace.

Mind you taht even in anime-terms such the way Taiga is acting looks weird and rather abusing to others. Remember that Ami questioned why actually Ryuuji allows Taiga so much. Meaning taht she thinks Taiga is going overboard and yet Ryuuji allows her which she wonders why. So even in anime standards Taiga's acts are not nice.

Ok, so she didn't know Taiga could swim, I'll give her that mistake. Still, Ami at every chance she's been given, has been trying to mentally abuse Taiga with Ryuuji. Yes, she probably has a thing for him, but she makes an effort to try to embarass Taiga both privately and publicly. In terms of psychological damage, Ami has done more to Taiga than the other way around. How was Ami affected by her bikini top being stolen? She had a moment of embarassment, which wasn't really that bad for her mentally. How was Taiga affected when Ami said she told Kitamura about what happened in the restaurant? She was left huddled under the sheets, crying, not even wanting to come out to eat. So you can't act like Ami was traumatized in any way by what Taiga did.

As for Ami asking Ryuuji about Taiga's treatment of him, that was 2 eps ago, when Ami didn't even know Ryuuji or Taiga, nor their relationship. Actually, it was the first time they[Ryuuji/Taiga] acted normally in front of each other in front of her[Ami], so of course she's gonna wonder why Ryuuji accepts it. I feel that since Ami, now, understands the relationship between those two, she knows the reason(or at least ventures a guess).

[Deathkillz]

What Taiga did was kinda...extreme?

Spoiler:

Well it was just desserts for Ami but having your swim suit torn off was a bit over the top...Taiga sure knows how to take things to the extreme if "throwing things" weren't bad enough

It's really weird to see how soft Ryuji is towards Taiga...I think that makes his character a bland if all he does is being mr perfect listener and don't do things that show the imperfectness that should be part of being human. I really can't fault him for anything wrong but that itself is not a good trait to have imo.

No he is officially Taiga's dog

Oh and Minorin's fake eyes made me laugh...

[ayu]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

In anime since the conflict with Ami was nothing big and shrugged off easily without any impact (which at that moment only strengthened the feeling that taiga do not care about Ryuuji that way) but now we get a random, specially in anime, confession coming totally out of the blue.

I disagree with what you have to say, there are already hints placed around saying that Taiga is grateful for what Ryuuji had done for her; Minori's conversation with Ryuuji and Yasuko. With a short bit of imagination and common sense, it is clear that Taiga was indeed grateful to Ryuuji but chose not to express it in fear of embarrassment etc. Hence making the conclusion to the match logical, rather than random.

[Darknemo2000]

Just because Taiga is an idiot over Kitamura doesn't make Ami worse. Actually Ami thinks that Taiga likes Ryuuji and not Kitamura so she didn't even thought it would hurt her so badly.

You have to understand that even in anime such relationship as Taiga/Ryuuji is viewed as not normal and abusive (thats why Ami questioned it). Later she got used to it. But it doesn't mean such relationship becomes normal.

Taiga still abuses and uses him and his kindness. Only Ryuuji can put up with her. This is not a normal relationship between friends. It is very dysfunctional.

It is like relationship between sadist and masochistic. Both are enjoying and others tolerate it to a certain level, but it is still different from what a normal a normal relationship is (be it friends or lovers).

Ayu - gratefulness is one thing, possessiveness is completely different one. The scale of intensity is different so I think you are making a illogical mistake connecting the gratefulness with such possessiveness as we see in the pool.

Note I do not question the feelings. though their existence was showed mare vague than in novels in manga you can't question them in total. The question is about the itensity and it does not match the reaction to Ami and the reaction in here.

[Caster13]

Another great episode. Really, I just can't stop loving every second and minute of this show!

I especially like how this was an analyze-everything-about-Ryuuji-episode. In every one-on-one conversation he had--Ami, Minori, Yasuko--they all picked and probed at him, pulling out little bits of himself to see with his own eyes. Like many people though, it takes him a while to understand the bits of himself everybody is pointing at and only starts to get an inkling of what he feels when he hands over the lunchbox to Taiga. Despite the confusing argument the day before, he stops trying to presume what she wants and tells her that he wants her to win and suddenly realizes there might be other things he wants as well.

And Taiga. She always knew what she wanted until now. First there was the students in the class pool talking about how she's competing for Ryuuji. A little shock but she seems to brush it off. It's not till later on at the public pool is she forced to seriously consider what exactly she is doing. As long as she has something to help keep her afloat, she's able to swim just fine, she actually has a chance of winning and beating Ami. She can win; she can have... what exactly? What she does have is that moment we all experience some point in our lives where we realize we don't know exactly what we want. The last few moments at the public pool was a violently beautiful scene: one that conveys the abruptness of a sudden halt in one's life. Maybe Taiga screaming at the class not to touch Ryuuji because he's hers seems a bit sudden, sometimes our emotions are too subtle even for ourselves until they break out like that. Besides, since when has Taiga ever been the kind to keep her emotions under control?

Ami is a beautiful enigma--in more ways than one. I think she continues to slowly and subtly shed her fake personality. She's never been more openly spiteful and mean spirited then when she tells Taiga that she will be all alone during the summer. Showing off her bikini at the class pool was also an excellent display of public narcissism. Then there's how she... does whatever the hell she's doing with/to Ryuuji! He seems to be the only guy she can genuinely open up to: telling him the conditions she finds peace and comfort in is a fairly intimate subject, I think. She also enjoys teasing him about Taiga as well. But what's her angle with all of this? Is she genuinely trying to approach him as a friend--or even more than that? Or is she laying down a web to trap Ryuuji and Taiga, tangling the two in the confusion of their own feelings and emotions before perhaps tearing that web apart?

And finally: I absolutely loved how Taiga has no compunctions about fighting dirty

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by ipernorris

Does anybody think that Ryuuji's mother is the most interesting character?

I wouldn't say most interesting, though she does have a strong input in the show --- a lot more then you'd expect after her first scene in the first episode. I'm really glad about this really, because she is a fun character.

[Vexx]

Broke down and watched a raw..... I believe Caster13 described my observations so I won't bother repeating them
For an "anime episode", it had quite a high density of information and content.

[Caster13]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

I wouldn't say most interesting, though she does have a strong input in the show --- a lot more then you'd expect after her first scene in the first episode. I'm really glad about this really, because she is a fun character.

If you think about it Ya-chan is the only character who's ever experienced a real, fulfilling romantic relationship--or, I suppose, experienced the most of one, though I suppose that also requires some assumptions about Ryuuji's father, i.e. he was as good a guy as her mother makes him out to be. Anyways! Even the home room teacher and gym teacher are still single.

So, naturally, I wouldn't be surprised if Ya-chan's got some more wisdom to share with Ryuuji and Taiga.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by frubam

(now that I think about it, why the hell didn't the guys that hit him help him back up? Plot-hole ?)

Not really. In the heat of things, nobody noticed it. That's basically the most alarming thing, really: if Taiga hadn't seen him going down, he could have died right then and there.

[Vexx]

Yacchan wisdom: Even if its only "he was what he was and I loved him anyway, he was special to me".
She probably had to work her way into her gangster love's defensive shells as well.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Caster13

Besides, since when has Taiga ever been the kind to keep her emotions under control?

Since episode 6/7 unless you are saying that she didnt had any emotions then, and suddenly had a massive character development during a single episode which is hard to believe.

If she kept her emotions in control then this whole outburst here should have downplayed as we know she did and the situations were similar in a sense
for her to yell "He is mine".

Since she didn't yell there she should not have yelled in here as well. She could let those feelings be known in some other, just anime way because they already did that to the whole Ami deal. The should have kept consistency and do it in their own way if they are doing it, if they are not then they should not change events that are chained with a row of events eventually.

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

How many people (as both real and anime characters) you see call others(and themselves) "baka". Then same question but how many uses "dog". Obviously, there is a reason that some words can be used but others can't
You said Kitamura and Ami have already expected Taiga is treating Ryuuji as a dog (literally) and Ryuuji accepts it?
The only one who doesn't mind such words is Minori because she doesn't take things so serious all the time

Odd - I've heard friendly conversations which use the word 'idiot' to refer to the other person without being overtly (or covertly) insulting, but more as a mild rebuke. "Of course not, you idiot!" or "Don't be such a moron" being two examples of the types of statements exchanged, especially between people who know one another semi-well. Or using words like "bitch" in an affectionate manner, for that matter.

And the anime doesn't show Taiga treating Ryuuji like a dog in a literal sense - she rails verbal abuse on him, but at the same time he can push back.... and that's one th ing that the anime dropped from the sources that I disagree with. Of course, people with poor relationships might not understand that you can insult one another in a friendly manner...

[BigJimmy]

While I did find the way Taiga cried over the top (Christ, the way she screamed, you'd think he actually died!), it was a touching moment for me. True, she did then go back to the whole "Dog and his master" thing, but that just suggests to me a way of saving face in front of Ami, her eternal nemesis.

Also, I've noticed Minori calling Ryuuji "Akechi-kun". What does that mean?

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Odd - I've heard friendly conversations which use the word 'idiot' to refer to the other person without being overtly (or covertly) insulting, but more as a mild rebuke. "Of course not, you idiot!" or "Don't be such a moron" being two examples of the types of statements exchanged, especially between people who know one another semi-well. Or using words like "bitch" in an affectionate manner, for that matter.

Pffft, I've used FAR worse insults to my mates, male and female. And they've used them on me. It's odd, but when you get close to someone, you get comfortable using those kinds of insults safe in the knowledge that they know you don't really mean it.

[frubam]

I always say "Wassup dog" to my friends. I call just about all of my friends 'dogs' . Yeah bad joke, i know .

Originally Posted by Darknemo

Just because Taiga is an idiot over Kitamura doesn't make Ami worse. Actually Ami thinks that Taiga likes Ryuuji and not Kitamura so she didn't even thought it would hurt her so badly

Yeah the emphasis was placed on what Ami said she told Kitamura, but she also, just before saying that, said Ryuuji no longer cared about her, and he left Taiga for Ami. It could be said what Ami's intentions were in telling her that, which is to crush[that's her word(translated) in ep 6 preview] her emotionally.

Originally Posted by wtfftw

@frubam...

You don't present anything to the table to counter what I said. It almost makes me want to stoop to your level, but you're not worth it. Her 'bitching' is okay, because I understand her circumstances and know of her char. However, I DON'T take to people who I don't even know or associate with(even on a forum level) talking to me like that. I've been pretty much at odds with how Darknemo thinks about the Taiga situation, amongst other things, but at least s/he has constructive posts to argue/counterargue what I'm saying, and I respect that. Your personal attack toward me w/o any intelligent reason does nothing but make you look like an ass. If you don't have anything constructive to add, don't reply to my posts.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Caster13

Another great episode. Really, I just can't stop loving every second and minute of this show!

I especially like how this was an analyze-everything-about-Ryuuji-episode. In every one-on-one conversation he had--Ami, Minori, Yasuko--they all picked and probed at him, pulling out little bits of himself to see with his own eyes. Like many people though, it takes him a while to understand the bits of himself everybody is pointing at and only starts to get an inkling of what he feels when he hands over the lunchbox to Taiga. Despite the confusing argument the day before, he stops trying to presume what she wants and tells her that he wants her to win and suddenly realizes there might be other things he wants as well.

And Taiga. She always knew what she wanted until now. First there was the students in the class pool talking about how she's competing for Ryuuji. A little shock but she seems to brush it off. It's not till later on at the public pool is she forced to seriously consider what exactly she is doing. As long as she has something to help keep her afloat, she's able to swim just fine, she actually has a chance of winning and beating Ami. She can win; she can have... what exactly? What she does have is that moment we all experience some point in our lives where we realize we don't know exactly what we want. The last few moments at the public pool was a violently beautiful scene: one that conveys the abruptness of a sudden halt in one's life. Maybe Taiga screaming at the class not to touch Ryuuji because he's hers seems a bit sudden, sometimes our emotions are too subtle even for ourselves until they break out like that. Besides, since when has Taiga ever been the kind to keep her emotions under control?

Ami is a beautiful enigma--in more ways than one. I think she continues to slowly and subtly shed her fake personality. She's never been more openly spiteful and mean spirited then when she tells Taiga that she will be all alone during the summer. Showing off her bikini at the class pool was also an excellent display of public narcissism. Then there's how she... does whatever the hell she's doing with/to Ryuuji! He seems to be the only guy she can genuinely open up to: telling him the conditions she finds peace and comfort in is a fairly intimate subject, I think. She also enjoys teasing him about Taiga as well. But what's her angle with all of this? Is she genuinely trying to approach him as a friend--or even more than that? Or is she laying down a web to trap Ryuuji and Taiga, tangling the two in the confusion of their own feelings and emotions before perhaps tearing that web apart?

And finally: I absolutely loved how Taiga has no compunctions about fighting dirty

I love you.

You wrote out everything that's been on my mind after rewatching this episode twenty times over.

And Dark, I really don't see how you can call Taiga's outburst random, especially after Caster's explanation here.

Besides, what's wrong with random? If it wasn't random it'd be predictable.

[Vexx]

Some people are just not seeing what other people see as emotional cues and shifts as the series develops. I don't know if that's cultural, experiential, their subtlety skills, or what.

In my case, my subjective view is that I see a steady development in the RxT saga and the poolside scene was just an semi-epiphany for her. (though I'll also critique that I think the VA overdid it somewhat and that certain moments were unanimated that might have made it more obvious to the casual viewer what was building). Teenage emotions can be pretty bipolar at times though ...

[stormy001_M1A2]

I think the part where Taiga was screaming incoherently and realizing that Ryuji can be gone does hinted at next level of emotional progression.