Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[RRW]

yeah they definitely need to expand their genre considering most of studio now capable to animate different type of genrer.
even sunrise which hailed as mainlly for mecha series capable to make some breakout hit from different genre like Cowboy Bebop, Tiger & Bunny

[Marcus H.]

^ But we already witnessed how they failed in "breaking the mold".

[Ithekro]

Depends on the mold. Their previous primary target audiance seems to like sexy girls (and/or moe' as well)...the varience in sexy is wide but that seems to be what sells. Nichijou's girls were (mostly) not sexy. At least not in the usual exploitable way (like say the girls from Haruhi or K-On...and certainly not like any Key girl). Lucky Star got away with it, probably because it was a heavy reference otaku comedy...and they made do with a mix of Kagami, Konata, and Tsukasa for the most part (the main variables in moe'), Miyuki being mostly ignored.

Nichijou was a wacky comedy. It didn't pander all that much to the moe' crowd (with exception of "Gundere", but that too was for comedy more than pandering) and the character design was mostly non-sexy (with a few exceptions, mostly for Sakurai-sensei and, rarely, Nano as well), so that sort of group was out.

So who is left as a market if most of the buyers are in it for cute girls and sexy girls, and there is no mecha?

What KyoAni did prove is that they can do just about anything when given a budget. What they couldn't prove is that people will buy anything.

What is left is to see what they do for their next project after the December release of the K-On movie. Will they go with something new? An established series they've done before? Something styled like something they've done before? Will it be with Kadokawa at all?

Is it Kadokawa being the problem, or KyoAni? (I seem to recall that in 2009 the calls on February 14th...the start day for Haruhi-chan being against Kadokawa for their "Nice Boat" opening delay (by about a day). Followed by serious questions to their sanity over the Endless Eight's eight weeks. While KyoAni has been classed as the 12/10 troll (nice troll, would be willing to be trolled again), Kadokawa is the 13/10 greedy troll (Wait, what? What the hell are you doing!?) and has been called on it. The question remains...what will they have KyoAni do for them next...or will KyoAni try to stick to other companies' projects?

[AbZeroNow]

Originally Posted by RRW

yeah they definitely need to expand their genre considering most of studio now capable to animate different type of genrer.
even sunrise which hailed as mainlly for mecha series capable to make some breakout hit from different genre like Cowboy Bebop, Tiger & Bunny

Cowboy Bebop wasn't a big hit in Japan. It became well known when it was dubbed and shown on Adult Swim in North America. I'm pretty sure it is much bigger among western fandom than it is among Japanese otaku. I also thought I remember reading how Tiger & Bunny didn't click with the otaku either. If anyone wants to pull the sales numbers for those, it would be appriciated. I am pretty sure that KyoAni or Kadokawa is going to bank on western fans(maybe Nichijou will do better over here).

Since Nichijou was their attempt at expanding genres, they(KyoAni) will probably play it safe after the K-ON movie comes out, and we will probably see one of these three things: Little Busters, Planetarian or a new season of Haruhi. Since I have read the novels, and know what would likely be animated next if there is a new season, it would be awesome, and I am sure that it will do better than the second season.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

^ But we already witnessed how they failed in "breaking the mold".

they dont need to break the mold. just expand it whiles keep their main forte.

with this they allow to gain more money from expanded audience
also it make stdio fanbase to not get bored with same genre

i am pretty sure Gin Tama, InuYasha, s-CRY-ed, and keroro is successful for non mecha anime that sunrise produce

say what if kyoani produce mystery or horor anime. do you think it will be successful?

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Yes, definitely. It can range from awful to awesome depending on who watches it. I'm not claiming any objective merit on the quality of Nichijou, but I've seen enough people on the internet who have been just as tremendously disappointed in it as I was. Whether you like it or not, this shows that the anime is quite polarizing.



Agreed. I don't even find A-Channel very funny anyway, but for all its mellowness it was still funnier than Nichijou. And Mio (the fujoshi you mentioned) was one of the funniest characters in Nichijou as far as I've seen (9 episodes at the moment).

Polarizing? Quite true. But that also means there are still people who like it. also A-Channel, really? Sigh.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

^ But we already witnessed how they failed in "breaking the mold".

They don't necessarily have to break the mold as to use the mold in a different place. KyoAni will probably have success with any series that has cute girls and panders to the moe crowd, this doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be standard moe shows. For example, the Key adaptations weren't moe shows like K-On! would be, but they had lots of moe elements. They do need new molds though eventually.

I blame Nichijou's failure on Kadokawa though. KyoAni can plate any series with gold, but if the series sucks it will still suck. I think Kadokawa more than anyone was under the illusion that KyoAni was the god studio that could do anything (Nichijou and E8 are the most obvious pieces of evidence).

[Marcus H.]

So something like Sora no Woto or a more serious Galaxy Angel is needed.
Honestly, I don't mind either, although it's hard to go for another Sora no Woto that is not a rip-off without stretching the bounds of realism.

I wonder now, which genres could KyoAni pull off decently?

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

So something like Sora no Woto or a more serious Galaxy Angel is needed.
Honestly, I don't mind either, although it's hard to go for another Sora no Woto that is not a rip-off without stretching the bounds of realism.

I wonder now, which genres could KyoAni pull off decently?

Troll comedy. Being serious here.

Cheers.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

So something like Sora no Woto or a more serious Galaxy Angel is needed.
Honestly, I don't mind either, although it's hard to go for another Sora no Woto that is not a rip-off without stretching the bounds of realism.

I wonder now, which genres could KyoAni pull off decently?

Originally Posted by Skane

Troll comedy. Being serious here.

Cheers.

And (melo)drama (and of course slice of life featuring cute girls doing cute things)

[Marcus H.]

Troll comedy. Being serious here.

Welp. I was... taken aback by Skane's comment. I assumed that KyoAni is even more mediocre than J.C. Staff when it comes to producing anime, based on his response.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

So something like Sora no Woto or a more serious Galaxy Angel is needed.
Honestly, I don't mind either, although it's hard to go for another Sora no Woto that is not a rip-off without stretching the bounds of realism.

I wonder now, which genres could KyoAni pull off decently?

1. Moe. This should be obvious.
2. Melodrama. (Key adaptations)
3. Stereotypical shounen action (FMP, Nichijou action scenes were really well done)

I would argue they can make a very high quality adaptation of anything, they just can't make miracles with sales (like every other studio probably). FMP didn't sell that well by KyoAni standards, but I think they did a much better job of FMP than GONZO did, or most studios that do prime time shounen series adapt whatever they adapt.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Bri

So I'm curious where this idea of a "horrible 2011" comes from.

We're more talking about the anime division of things, I mean that divisions earnings was down from last year and that's after the Haruhi Bluray Boxset and Haruhi Movie sold over 2 billion yen combined... take that out of the equation.... what exactly have they got left? They're so desperate to recoup on Nichijou they bought it a prime time slot to reair in...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How can you downplay an impact that hasn't even happened yet? I don't doubt that the K-On! movie will be a success, but I think we need to wait and see how it does before saying much concrete about it. Increased manga sales in particular seems a bit of a presumptive guess to me

You saying this isn't downplaying the impact? KyoAni needs to do something big and new (so, no, the K-On movie alone isn't enough) soon, or they risk getting completely eclipsed by A-1 and/or other anime studios.

C'mon Triple_R, that's completely "doom and gloom" and you're ignoring how big an impact the K-ON! Movie will be on multiple levels. A-1 would love the Ao no Exorcist Movie to have half the impact...

As for a presumptive guess in regards to increased manga sales, no. I've constantly seen the effect anime has had on manga and light novels when it comes to increased sales, from Durrarara (try vol 1 selling 38k before falling off the charts before the anime to selling over 300,000 copies) to Infinite Stratos and even Haruhi itself is bigger than it ever was after Disappearance sold around 200,000 units (according to the Haruhi Media Guide). One Piece was always massive and took it to the next level after Movie 10 which involved the mangaka for the first time and was heavily promoted. I could go on until I hit the word limit if I wanted to....

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The point that I and some others have made is that KyoAni might not be able to do this any more. That, I think, is what the Nichijou sales may portend. That KyoAni can't turn (new) "small time 4Komas" into smash hits anymore. That they need to be choosy about what they adapt going forward.

Might not be able to do it because of a single anime? That's rather silly and seems to be a "What have you done for me lately" mindset. Ignoring Munto (only because it seems the industry itself does since Nichijou is the "myth" buster) KyoAni produced 5 different hit franchises in a row over 8 series with the lowest only selling 17.2k per volume on avg. To put that into perspective every SHAFT series apart from Bake and Madoka get nowhere near that. Why does 1 series invalidate that amazing track record? It's just not logical at all but hey, I guess the saying you're only as good as last... applies here...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that the Haruhi brand itself has recovered from E8, but I'm less sure about the KyoAni brand.

I don't see how you can say the Haruhi brand has recovered thanks to 34,000 BD Box Sets and 200,000 Haruhi Movie sales yet KyoAni hasn't. Also ignores that K-ON!! sold amazingly after E8... if anyone is tarnished to this day from Endless Eight it's Kadokawa. Reading the thread it seems you've now come to that conclusion anyway.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

They could easily get another 14 episode season of Haruhi out of what is left from books 5 and 6 along with books 7 and 8. They mght be able to make a 28 episode season with the added material from books 9, 10, and 11, which is one story. But since books 9, 10, and 11 are one story, it might work as a movie instead...unless it is too long or complex, then it might need its own season to get all the details to work.

Interesting, but will Kadokawa pull the trigger.

Originally Posted by AbZeroNow

Cowboy Bebop wasn't a big hit in Japan.

Just a FYI but Cowboy Bebop is the 13th best selling TV anime in Japan...

The old list.

#10 Martian Successor Nadesico 37897 units
#9 Dragon Ball Z 40065 units
#8 Cowboy Bebop 40212 units
#7 Suzumiya Haruhi 41307 units
#6 Code Geass 44657 units
#5 Zeta Gundam 54994 units
#4 Gundam Seed 58563 units
#3 Gundam Seed Destiny 69247 units
#2 Mobile Suit Gundam 80928 units
#1 Neon Genesis Evangelion 173458

+ Somethings Top 10 from his 2000 onwards list.

01)　　*78,671　　¥3,558m　　15 ep　　2009　　Shaft__________　　Aniplex______　　Bakemono gatari
02)　　*68,734　　¥5,629m　　50 ep　　2004　　Sunrise________　　Bandai_______　　Kido u Senshi Gundam SEED Destiny
03)　　*68,485　　¥2,957m　　12 ep　　2011　　Shaft__________　　Aniplex______　　Maho u Shoujo Madoka Magica
04)　　*58,589　　¥4,798m　　50 ep　　2002　　Sunrise________　　Bandai_______　　Kido u Senshi Gundam SEED
05)　　*50,551　　¥2,673m　　25 ep　　2006　　Sunrise________　　Bandai_______　　Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch
06)　　*46,146　　¥2,705m　　25 ep　　2008　　Satelight______　　Bandai_______　　Macr oss Frontier
07)　　*43,883　　¥2,309m　　14 ep　　2009　　Kyoto Animation　　Pony Canyon__　　K-ON!
08)　　*42,690　　¥2,370m　　25 ep　　2008　　Sunrise________　　Bandai_______　　Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch R2
09)　　*41,037　　¥2,091m　　14 ep　　2006　　Kyoto Animation　　Kadokawa_____　　Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu
10)　　*39,385　　¥2,888m　　27 ep　　2010　　Kyoto Animation　　Pony Canyon__　　K-ON!!

5 shows go above Bebop making it go from 8th to 13th.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

So something like Sora no Woto or a more serious Galaxy Angel is needed.
Honestly, I don't mind either, although it's hard to go for another Sora no Woto that is not a rip-off without stretching the bounds of realism.

I wonder now, which genres could KyoAni pull off decently?

I haven't seen Galaxy Angel yet but I've seen Milky Holmes which is considered a spiritual successor to Galaxy Angel and yeah, anything like that sounds fun, especially if it gets a Nichijou-level budget. And a series similar to Sora no Woto could be great if it's done properly.

Originally Posted by Random32

1. Moe. This should be obvious.

Yeah. Moe is a genre, just like 'manly tears', 'peed in my pants', 'awesome', and 'bored out of my skull' are genres.

It's not like I don't get what you mean though.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Westlo

You saying this isn't downplaying the impact?

No, it isn't. Again, how can you downplay the impact of something that hasn't even happened yet?

You act like no movie has ever done worse than expected, or no anime has ever had disappointing sales. We both know that's entirely false.

And yet you make these several months in advance predictions as though you were reading off a definitive sales sheet.

It's a safe assumption that the K-On movie will do well. Anything beyond such a general assumption is presumptuous. The same sort of presumptuousness that lead to Kadokawa drastically overestimating how well Nichijou would likely sell.

C'mon Triple_R, that's completely "doom and gloom" and you're ignoring how big an impact the K-ON! Movie will be on multiple levels.

Even if the K-On! Movie does every bit as well as you think it will, that doesn't help KyoAni any with folks who aren't K-On fans, or with people who are looking for KyoAni to add something new to its full suite of shows.

KyoAni can only milk K-On and Haruhi for so long, before a lot of people will just stop caring about them.

As for a presumptive guess in regards to increased manga sales, no. I've constantly seen the effect anime has had on manga and light novels when it comes to increased sales, from Durrarara (try vol 1 selling 38k before falling off the charts before the anime to selling over 300,000 copies) to Infinite Stratos and even Haruhi itself is bigger than it ever was after Disappearance sold around 200,000 units (according to the Haruhi Media Guide).

This is just you cherry picking examples to support your argument.

Last I checked, the Kamisama Dolls anime did not boost sales for the Kamisama Dolls manga.

There are exceptions to almost every rule.

Might not be able to do it because of a single anime? That's rather silly and seems to be a "What have you done for me lately" mindset.

Lots of people take that mindset, which is precisely why the idea I put forward there is not silly, imo.

Like Archon_Wing wrote, you can only string people along for so long before they stop caring.

Ignoring Munto (only because it seems the industry itself does since Nichijou is the "myth" buster)

Munto showed that KyoAni has real difficulty with anime original material. That's a different matter than the ability (or lack thereof) to take a small time 4Koma and turn it into a big hint.

KyoAni produced 5 different hit franchises in a row over 8 series with the lowest only selling 17.2k per volume on avg.

Sure. And the Eaton's company in Canada was incredibly commercially successful for a long, long time. But it eventually crashed and burned.

Just because a company had a nice string of sales success doesn't mean it always will.

Why does 1 series invalidate that amazing track record?

I'm not saying it invalidates the track record, but let's not forget that this track record included some high-profile source material in the Key titles and Haruhi.

KyoAni has little track record in turning "small time 4Komas" into big hits. That, specifically, they've only done twice (Lucky Star and K-On). If 1 isn't much to go on, then neither is 2.

I don't see how you can say the Haruhi brand has recovered thanks to 34,000 BD Box Sets and 200,000 Haruhi Movie sales yet KyoAni hasn't. Also ignores that K-ON!! sold amazingly after E8... if anyone is tarnished to this day from Endless Eight it's Kadokawa.

Why is E8 all Kadokawa's fault, in your view? Why doesn't KyoAni take any blame for this whatsoever? Is Kadokawa simply the parent company of KyoAni?

Serious question, because that does seem to be how some people talk about the two. As though KyoAni has no independence whatsoever, and has to ask "How high?" every time Kadokawa tells KyoAni to jump.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I wonder now, which genres could KyoAni pull off decently?

Well, judging by the three KyoAni adaptations I enjoyed:
1. Full Metal Panic
2. Suzumiya Haruhi (barring that absolutely horrid E8 rendition. And yes, I think KyoAni has their share of blame)
3. Nichijou

Then the answer would be: action, genre-busters, or slice-of-life (or whatever other fancy definitions people use) without excessive moe.

I won't mind seeing them try troll comedy though, seriously. But I thought they only do adaptations, no original works? I admit I'm not familiar with the rest of their products...

[Ithekro]

KyoAni has little track record in turning "small time 4Komas" into big hits. That, specifically, they've only done twice (Lucky Star and K-On). If 1 isn't much to go on, then neither is 2.

They have done 4 actually.
The Melancholy of Haruhi-chan Suzumiya
and
Nyorōn Churuya-san
And these two are parody manga at that.


Come to think of it, it would be interesting to see Haruhi-chan's sequal, The Vanishing of Nagato Yuki chan, animated. (it is not a 4-koma like the other two are, and is more a romance comedy).


On the subject of K-On's movie...how many times has it sold out already? It isn't even in theaters yet. So it has already made money.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

They have done 4 actually.
The Melancholy of Haruhi-chan Suzumiya
and
Nyorōn Churuya-san
And these two are parody manga at that.

The fact they're parody manga of an established light novel/anime franchise is why I'm not counting them. They're just riding on the coattails of the popularity of the Haruhi franchise.

Haruhi itself, apart from KyoAni, is a multi-media money-making machine.

On the subject of K-On's movie...how many times has it sold out already? It isn't even in theaters yet. So it has already made money.

I'm not disrupting that it will do well. But let's see how it does in Week 2 and on, and how it does in word of mouth.

I've seen many American movies come screeching out of the gates with a great first week, only to drop off drastically after that.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I've seen many American movies come screeching out of the gates with a great first week, only to drop off drastically after that.

It is not a good idea to compare how American and Japan Box office work. Especially when we are talking about movies from popular anime to begin with.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It is not a good idea to compare how American and Japan Box office work. Especially when we are talking about movies from popular anime to begin with.

Why is it not a good idea?