Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Solace

And there's really no characters to ship (although some have tried).

Well, there are characters to ship, it's just that they're either dead or having trouble coping with the others being dead, so there's not a whole lot of point in it... "See that flag over there?" *boom* "what flag lol" (Also, the dead ones were 14-16 and the currently non-dead ones are 26, which doesn't really help anyone's case. XD;; )

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Well, there are characters to ship, it's just that they're either dead or having trouble coping with the others being dead, so there's not a whole lot of point in it... "See that flag over there?" *boom* "what flag lol" (Also, the dead ones were 14-16 and the currently non-dead ones are 26, which doesn't really help anyone's case. XD;; )

My favorite pairing (not that I'm your typical shipper in any way, shape, or form...) has been Saki and Satoru since way back when they first got lost in the woods and were being manipulated by Yakomaru to do his dirty work. They're both still alive, but I'm worried that perhaps Satoru may bite the bullet next episode... hope not.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

My complaint wasn't based on just this thread. I was going to write a post after watching episode 16, but I gave up on that after seeing spoilers about Maria's child. Then, jump to this thread, and I was seeing more of the same. While it may be an overreaction on my part, I'm also uncomfortable posting in this sub-forum.

I understand that. However there's a limit to how well the policy works. You know this from your prior experiences. We can police as best as possible, but spoilers will always get through. From my tenure as the primary mod of this subforum, I can state that most of the spoilers flying around weren't really spoilers at all. Some of it was poorly phrased speculation, some of it was just obvious guesswork, and some of it was people who thought they knew certain spoilers but instead were just rehashing false information from somewhere else (due to the lack of English translation, most spoilers are second hand sourced). There is an English translated manga as well, but those spoilers don't have much relation to the anime or the novel, but unfortunately some of those readers didn't know that.

The particular user I mentioned also did a lot of harm to the posting environment, by creating multiple duplicate accounts and blasting out spoiler after spoiler before we were aware of it and damage control took effect. We haven't had many people as persistent about circumventing bans as this person has been, considering he was initially banned way back around episode 8 or so. I won't go into the details of how he's been doing this in public, but I'm sure you can guess.

And of course, there's only so much discussion to moderate. If I were to take an extreme stance on the spoiler policy, the already limited discussion that does exist would dwindle to nothing. That sounds like a copout, but I'll be brutally honest: it's simply impossible to have a completely spoiler free environment, and people who expect otherwise, shouldn't. Unfortunately this means such people completely remove themselves from nearly all discussion for fear of spoilers, and this means even fewer people to spur meaningful conversation.

It's a combination of many things that results in how a community is formed, progressed, sustained, and ultimately dwindled.

To those who are spoiler phobic, the only thing I can say is the water is always cold when you first dip a toe in. If you don't take a plunge, you'll never get used to it. And look on the bright side, at least you have the choice. As a mod, I'm often spoiled on everything before most stuff even hits current discussion.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's not just the bad posts - there are tons of spoilers dropped nonchalantly too.

Go visit the Magi thread which I have found nearly unreadable because of the degree of whining and spoilage by manga readers (though in defense of our illustrious moderators, the whining was the more annoying of the two). At least the core group of discussants here largely avoid spoilers and have conducted themselves rather well, I think.

Earlier you mentioned Maria and Mamoru's child as an example of spoiling. I thought the discussion about that subject followed rather naturally from the hints that were dropped in the show which led to speculation.

[apotheosis]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I still say many people here are either having unrealistic expectations of Saki, or are greatly exaggerating her recent "weak" behavior. If she was truly as weak as people seem to think she is, she would be curled up in a corner somewhere, waiting for the nightmare to end, mission abandoned, or she would've simply lost her mind.

IMO the recent episodes have exagurrated her weakness to help the viewer connect with how scary things are. This seems like a deliberate narritive device. I can understand that they want us to react to the suddenness of a monster rushing onto the screen by reacting along with Saki ... and that's fine. It's a standard convention in suspense type movies/tv/anime and I can fogive it to some extent .. but I'd like to see more balance.

As other posters have mentioned, Saki seemed to be more in control in some of the earlier episdoes. The scene where she gave Satorou his mantra back, in a seemingly hopeless situation, made her seem extraordinarily emotionally strong. Not because she didn't cry or seem afraid, but because she worked past it and did what needed to be done anyway.

In the tokyo chase arc, she seems to be relying on others to do everything. She hasn't really helped with the planning or done much with her cantus. I don't think anyone expects her to have more tactical knowledge than Kiromaru or be more bad ass than Shun. We just want her to contribute a little bit more & not just be the heroine who screams in a suspense flick. She can still scream, I'd expect it of her character, I just want her to do something about it afterwards

Maybe the director is just being more true to the novel here and it seems off to me because of the previous anime only changes *shrugs*. I know some posters in previous episdoes said a number of good ideas were originally Satorou's in the novel, not Saki's (like the reflective light trick to escape the fiend). As an anime only viewer, though; the disconnect between Saki in that scene and her in the scene with the giant centipede is noticeable.

I have no idea how this is going to end (which I am enjoying quite immensely), but I am somewhat suspiscious that Saki will (somewhat) put things together at the climax & they are exagurrating her helplessness now to make the rebound more impactful. Kind of like they used some narrative exagurration about there being no plan to deal with a fiend ... and then next episode there was a last ditch plan.

If it works out this way, I think it'll be ok in total ... it's just that we're at the downpoint right now, so it seems glaring and frustrating and dissonant (assuming you are an anime only viewer and don't know what happens ).

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

My favorite pairing (not that I'm your typical shipper in any way, shape, or form...) has been Saki and Satoru since way back when they first got lost in the woods and were being manipulated by Yakomaru to do his dirty work. They're both still alive, but I'm worried that perhaps Satoru may bite the bullet next episode... hope not.

I like them the most, too, but what with them being in love with Shun for most of the story, and then being hung over him like that even in the third part, even if it's for understandable reasons... they're not exactly your typical shipping material, and the anime is not doing anything to help with that. But in any case, I think they have a great relationship which is quite fascinating in this third part (whether you interpret it as romantic or not), and it's a shame that it doesn't get more attention even in the book, and even less so the anime.

>apotheosis
But that's just it, she's doing stuff here, too. Maybe it's not something as obvious as giving Satoru her power back (but then, now they're not in a situation where she would have the opportunity to do something like that), but just as you said, she's working past her fears and doing what is needed to be done, anyway. Even when Inui died her first thought, over the shock and fear, was diving back to grab the library critter, and she cried only after that. I think the fact that she managed to secure the psycho buster is enough proof of her doing the job. (Also, consider the differences in her situation back and now. Back then she had friends and family, a home. Now all she has is Satoru whom she may or may not lose, parents who may be already dead, her home has been all but destroyed, and she's burdened by the weight of a great responsibility.)

Sure, she's not doing anything obviously "big" but what could she do? The planning is basically Kiroumaru leading the way and coming up with ideas, since he knows the place and knows the enemy, the rest of the group is just following him. Satoru and Inui are much better at the fighting/physical side of things than her. So all she can do is going along and concentrating on her mission without losing her heart. (By the way, the anime neglected to mention why Satoru didn't go with Saki - again, it's not plot-important and is not difficult to figure out, but it would've been nice to see them acknowledge it and add it to his characterization.)

I guess ultimately this is very subjective (what isn't? ) and it's not surprising that many people want to see Saki being more visibly active as a main character. But personally, I find her more interesting this way.

[Tougarashi]

Originally Posted by Xiammes

I think its becausehe grew up around Queerats, that he believes he is one. I think Death Feedback happens when he attacks the Queerats. Look at the battle with the Hornet Colony, the Akki only disarmed them then the Robber Fly finished them off based off of Kiromaru's account.

I see, that's why he didn't hurm Inui when Inui made Queerat's sound. If that so, the one who should eliminate him should be Kinoumaru.

[momonae]

Originally Posted by apotheosis

IMO the recent episodes have exagurrated her weakness to help the viewer connect with how scary things are. This seems like a deliberate narritive device.

This narrative is, more than anything else, what-if story. It means this is not a narraive of heros/heroines and it's more important that the characters in it are believable than they are unbeliebably heroic. Saki is a boss-to-be. And real bosses often suck. Therefore Saki should be suck. On the other hand, Satoru is a subordinate-to-be, partner-to-be, or partner of the main character (Saki). In reality, real jobs are carried out by subordinates and people other than you. Therefore he has to shine and has to prove that he is not just a foil to Saki.

In the tokyo chase arc, she seems to be relying on others to do everything. She hasn't really helped with the planning or done much with her cantus. I don't think anyone expects her to have more tactical knowledge than Kiromaru or be more bad ass than Shun. We just want her to contribute a little bit more & not just be the heroine who screams in a suspense flick. She can still scream, I'd expect it of her character, I just want her to do something about it afterwards

She blew up the giant centipede (or ragworm) first and saved Inui's life. Then Inui burned up the centipede and killed it before it attacked petrified Saki. Saki found and got Psykobuster. So at least she completed her and the party's first mission. She should be credited for freeing and accompanying Kiroumaru to Tokyo, he was indispensable in this mission.

[Repelsteeltju]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

But that's just it, she's doing stuff here, too. Maybe it's not something as obvious as giving Satoru her power back (but then, now they're not in a situation where she would have the opportunity to do something like that), but just as you said, she's working past her fears and doing what is needed to be done, anyway. Even when Inui died her first thought, over the shock and fear, was diving back to grab the library critter, and she cried only after that. I think the fact that she managed to secure the psycho buster is enough proof of her doing the job.

I see Saki as a profoundly brave character. So thinking of her in terms of: well at least she'd didn't forget her mission due to fear or what have you. Is a step down from that.

(Also, consider the differences in her situation back and now. Back then she had friends and family, a home. Now all she has is Satoru whom she may or may not lose, parents who may be already dead, her home has been all but destroyed, and she's burdened by the weight of a great responsibility.)

That goes for everyone, probably even for Kiroumaru. But we don't use it to justify their inaction because they're not at all portrayed as inactive.

So all she can do is going along and concentrating on her mission without losing her heart.

That the complaint isn't it? They could have taken that annoying bald monk guy along instead and all that we'd miss would be the bathing scene and the girlish squeals.

Saki's always been at her best and brightest when her back was against the wall and now her back is against the wall.

This is going to be good, it'd better be.

I guess ultimately this is very subjective (what isn't? ) and it's not surprising that many people want to see Saki being more visibly active as a main character. But personally, I find her more interesting this way.

Is there a way for a character to be active in fiction without conveying that to the audience? If you where to write a story, let say a serial novel, wherein a tree falls but it's never let on to the reader and doesn't effect the characters or the described environment did the three fall at all? You obviously reap the benefits of having read the novel but those of us who haven't are seeing Saki in a state more faceless than Shun has been in the past few weeks.

Originally Posted by momonae

This narrative is, more than anything else, what-if story. It means this is not a narraive of heros/heroines and it's more important that the characters in it are believable than they are unbeliebably heroic. Saki is a boss-to-be. And real bosses often suck. Therefore Saki should be suck. On the other hand, Satoru is a subordinate-to-be, partner-to-be, or partner of the main character (Saki). In reality, real jobs are carried out by subordinates and people other than you. Therefore he has to shine and has to prove that he is not just a foil to Saki.

I can't seem to comprehend this. You acknowledge that Saki 'sucks' and is incompetent but you're OK with that because bosses suck?

She blew up the giant centipede (or ragworm) first and saved Inui's life. Then Inui burned up the centipede and killed it before it attacked petrified Saki. Saki found and got Psykobuster. So at least she completed her and the party's first mission. She should be credited for freeing and accompanying Kiroumaru to Tokyo, he was indispensable in this mission.

Nice catch. I wasn't quite clear on how much Saki used her cantus in that scene (they used to give us those useful close-ups of Saki reciting her mantra, no more it seems) but how you've put it seems about right. Notwithstanding that Saki did this by closing her eyes and hoping that the beast would just begone.
Following Inui's death all the trials she had to go through to get to the super-anthrax were opening a few doors and a vault, with her cantus I might add. The bald annoying monk guy could have done as much. And lets not forget that it was Satoru who unchained Kirou so it's kinda weird to give her credit for not objecting to a sound course of action. Though I'll give you that much the annoying bald monk guy could not have done that.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Saki overcame her fears and remained cool-headed throughout the whole ordeal. She saved Satoru on at least one instance. She was smart enough to figure how to undo the binding of Satoru's cantus. She acted bravely and pulled a first rate bluff on Squealer. And tons of other things I forget. She was very pro-active and not passive like she is now.

She was only 12 years old back then. Her 14 years old self was no different. I would have expected a 26 years old Saki to be even more resourceful.

There's one big difference though. She had her friends, even if not in person, the very thought of them makes one stronger. Right now, we have several dead ones, including 2 that have started the apocalypse and the possibly alive one is uncertain too. Meanwhile, the village and most of what she knows has been destroyed.

Given how excessively co-dependent on others this society is, it's very hard to take action on one's own. That's just how their society was designed.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I am quite bothered by Saki's characterization lately. What did Tomiko see in her? She has repeatedly acted like a useless damsel in distress who just never uses her powers. I understand, she isn't particularly powerful, but she almost never does anything. Just a lot of crying and being useless. I loved Saki earlier in this show, so it's disappointing to me that they'd strip her of any use in this story. Maybe the creators thought that was moe or something, I don't know. It's just very annoying to see her do things earlier in the show (Like survive the encounter with the tainted cat), but then seem completely useless here. Granted, she has acted pretty "normal," but she is supposed to be more special and just normal IMO.

Now I am not sure how they plan to conclude this series, but they only have two episodes left. I fear we might run into some awkward pacing issues in the final stretch here (If we haven't already). I also heard from novel readers that a lot of the significance about what the Psycho Buster is got gutted. These sorts of details are what keep the story logical and intelligible. Otherwise it allows us to just poke holes in what's going on. Why is the psycho buster useful against the fiend and a counter to death feedback? This still hasn't been explained at all and I am not sure the TV series will ever justify it to me.

This series might have lost its chance at greatness.

Yea, I suppose there's a lot of swept by the wind situations for the characters where it feels like they are agents of the plot rather than their own selves. Though I might have an excuse.

Imagine being a cold, pragmatic leader who sees that no successor is a viable choice. The older ones are too set in their ways. But you see someone with a will to live and naive enough to believe what you need to tell them. Let's just say that they too aren't really that capable?

Well, sometimes a lie is a good placebo to give someone courage. Even if it's a pretty much minute chance.

Of course, Tomiko could have just been wrong, lol. The humans have been very wrong on like everything as of late. They are very inflexible and once any unknown factors catch into their elaborate plans of prevention, it's gg.

[apotheosis]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

>apotheosis
But that's just it, she's doing stuff here, too. Maybe it's not something as obvious as giving Satoru her power back (but then, now they're not in a situation where she would have the opportunity to do something like that), but just as you said, she's working past her fears and doing what is needed to be done, anyway.

I guess ultimately this is very subjective (what isn't? ) and it's not surprising that many people want to see Saki being more visibly active as a main character. But personally, I find her more interesting this way.

I would agree it is subjective & probably depends a lot on how the viewer is identifying with Saki. Is she a damsel in distress they'd want to save? Living proof of humanity's inevitable decline & doom in the narrative? An ordinary girl with the courage to face the terrors of the world? A femme fatale action hero?

I still have my hopes for Saki + McGuffin. She did manage to get to it, though the struggle felt more like a defeat than a triumph. That probably also colors my thinking ... I was full of confidence in Shun/Satorou/Saki/etc in the child & teenage arcs. Now I am not at all so sure ..

Originally Posted by momonae

This narrative is, more than anything else, what-if story. It means this is not a narraive of heros/heroines and it's more important that the characters in it are believable than they are unbeliebably heroic. Saki is a boss-to-be. And real bosses often suck. Therefore Saki should be suck. On the other hand, Satoru is a subordinate-to-be, partner-to-be, or partner of the main character (Saki). In reality, real jobs are carried out by subordinates and people other than you. Therefore he has to shine and has to prove that he is not just a foil to Saki.

Some bosses lead by example. They definitely have to delegate some/most tasks, but taking on difficult tasks and doing them right is one way to inspire people to follow you. It's worked for me before.

Originally Posted by momonae

She blew up the giant centipede (or ragworm) first and saved Inui's life. Then Inui burned up the centipede and killed it before it attacked petrified Saki. Saki found and got Psykobuster. So at least she completed her and the party's first mission. She should be credited for freeing and accompanying Kiroumaru to Tokyo, he was indispensable in this mission.

I didn't catch that she attacked the centipede either. I rewatched it and I do see the change in Saki's facial expression, like determination ... so it could have been her attack. I suppose I credited the attack to Inui since it was identical in form to the second attack, which was definitely him. Maybe it's made more clear in the novel who attacked? (though the anime has deviated from that before certainly)

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Yea, I suppose there's a lot of swept by the wind situations for the characters where it feels like they are agents of the plot rather than their own selves. Though I might have an excuse.

Imagine being a cold, pragmatic leader who sees that no successor is a viable choice. The older ones are too set in their ways. But you see someone with a will to live and naive enough to believe what you need to tell them. Let's just say that they too aren't really that capable?

Well, sometimes a lie is a good placebo to give someone courage. Even if it's a pretty much minute chance.

Of course, Tomiko could have just been wrong, lol. The humans have been very wrong on like everything as of late. They are very inflexible and once any unknown factors catch into their elaborate plans of prevention, it's gg.

Well it might be amusing to consider that the humans really are so incompetent .

However, the thing is that I truly believed in Tomiko's words when Saki was still a teenager. She truly was proactive in the story, and overcame these emotional moments. She survived these trials and continued to live on with a level head.

That is why her actions in this arc so far have been pretty disappointing to me. I'd expect that since she became an adult, she'd be even more mature and stronger. Instead it almost feels like she has regressed. Granted, I expect she'll do something FINALLY in the next episodes.

[NoemiChan]

What was that so called "weapon"?

This thing is used during that "war" I though it was some kind of "tranquilizer gun" or cannon or something... This only made it more complicated... Do they have to inject it? That means geting closer to the "fiend".... !!!!

[momonae]

Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju

I can't seem to comprehend this. You acknowledge that Saki 'sucks' and is incompetent but you're OK with that because bosses suck?

I'm saying that this is not a story, in which, you expect a hero or heroes you cheer for, the said hero save the day and you feel good. And if that happens it's rather a letdown. The boss sucks part is just only my tongue-in-cheek logic to prove that it's OK that she doesn't look competent .

Following Inui's death all the trials she had to go through to get to the super-anthrax were opening a few doors and a vault, with her cantus I might add. The bald annoying monk guy could have done as much. And lets not forget that it was Satoru who unchained Kirou so it's kinda weird to give her credit for not objecting to a sound course of action.

But she did her job nonetheless. If you expect more than that from her, you are expecting a hero or simply wanting some kind of enjoyable action scenes. As for Kiroumaru, she was apparently on the same page with Satoru and implicitly helped him to free Kiroumaru, or she did it herself if he didn't. And never forget the mission was entrusted to her by her mother, so she was supposed to be most influential on the decisions concerning Kiroumaru. I don't think you can discredit her on that.

Though I'll give you that much the annoying bald monk guy could not have done that.

If you mean Hino Koufuu by "bald monk", he is not a monk but a head of craftman guild or technology and science department. He was supposed to be on par with Kaburagi Shisei as far as psychic power is concerned, but his ability was shaped for more technological things. He was not originally so "annoying" or like a macho he was but a rather nerdish person if you ask me.

Originally Posted by apotheosis

Some bosses lead by example. They definitely have to delegate some/most tasks, but taking on difficult tasks and doing them right is one way to inspire people to follow you. It's worked for me before.

You might be right about some bosses, but in general.... Are you saying that the bosses who don't lead by example should be got rid of and isn't worth to be a boss?

I didn't catch that she attacked the centipede either. (snipped) Maybe it's made more clear in the novel who attacked?

Yes, I checked.

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

What was that so called "weapon?"

This thing is used during that "war" I though it was some kind of "tranquilizer gun" or cannon or something... This only made it more complicated... Do they have to inject it? That means geting closer to the "fiend".... !!!!

Do you mean anthrax by "weapon"? If so, it's anthrax spore engineered to be highly toxic and contagious and designed to be inhaled by the victim. I suppose it's a only weapon usable after a thousand years.

[SeijiSensei]

How Anthrax is Weaponized

"In order to cause disease, at least 8,000 to 10,000 spores need to lodge deep in the lungs, in the tiniest air sacs known as alveoli."

I wonder how much volume 8-10,000 spores consumes. The amount in the Psychobuster looks to be a few cubic centimeters.

[Raghar]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I wonder how much volume 8-10,000 spores consumes. The amount in the Psychobuster looks to be a few cubic centimeters.

Enough to kill few million people.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by momonae

Do you mean anthrax by "weapon"? If so, it's anthrax spore engineered to be highly toxic and contagious and designed to be inhaled by the victim. I suppose it's a only weapon usable after a thousand years.

I mean the method.. look at it.... it's uncool... they could have made it like a sword, gun or RPG looking... A hairpin/ necklace are for ninjas..

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Well, it's arguably already too stylish in its current decorative necklace form. Considering that it's coming out of a lab, you'd expect to see a metal or glass cylinder or sphere, and not much else.

Because military bioweapons come in plain packages.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

Well, it's arguably already too stylish in its current decorative necklace form. Considering that it's coming out of a lab, you'd expect to see a metal or glass cylinder or sphere, and not much else.

Because military bioweapons come in plain packages.

The container looks pretty meh if you ask me, but there's a reason why it looks like that, which the episode neglected to mention. That note wasn't lying next to it just to be ignored... perhaps they'll flash back to Saki reading it in the next episode.

Originally Posted by momonae

I'm saying that this is not a story, in which, you expect a hero or heroes you cheer for, the said hero save the day and you feel good.

Seriously. On the one hand people are like "I hope Saki is writing her memoirs as a slave for bakenezumi!" and on the other hand "why isn't she more heroic!" If the 23 episodes so far weren't enough to make it obvious, this isn't exactly your usual adventure story.

Originally Posted by momonae

He was supposed to be on par with Kaburagi Shisei as far as psychic power is concerned, but his ability was shaped for more technological things. He was not originally so "annoying" or like a macho he was but a rather nerdish person if you ask me.

And creepy...

[Solace]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

The container looks pretty meh if you ask me, but there's a reason why it looks like that, which the episode neglected to mention. That note wasn't lying next to it just to be ignored... perhaps they'll flash back to Saki reading it in the next episode.

It's obviously a flash drive with a complete Anthrax discography. Saki will play it at full blast using the Psychobuster, causing the Queerats and Maria's child to melt into puddles of goo from listening to the gods of metal in hi-fi stereo. Those chops are just too righteous!



Hey, if yodeling can kill martians, anything is possible!