Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Archived Discussion

[Rava]

Originally Posted by kidswable

Simple fact, why the vampire need a host to do things when they obviously can cast magic only with mind?

That is actually a really complicated answer, and I know I'm not going to waste the time with an explanation.

The main point is that they are not human, so drawing corollaries between them and humans is bogus, NOT logical.

It's exactly the same kind of non-logic as claiming because birds can fly by flapping their arm-equivalents, humans can fly by flapping their arms as well.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by Rava

That is actually a really complicated answer, and I know I'm not going to waste the time with an explanation.

The main point is that they are not human, so drawing corollaries between them and humans is bogus, NOT logical.

It's exactly the same kind of non-logic as claiming because birds can fly by flapping their arm-equivalents, humans can fly by flapping their arms as well.

You may check volume 11


" This was the result based on the information he received from Pixie and after a lengthy discussion with Yakumo.

They did not attach themselves to the human body’s organs, but to the human spirit.
In that sense, it was no different striking anywhere on the body. Given that, he might as well seek the deepest connection and aimed for the heart that provided fuel for all cellular activity. "



Since Brain, Mind, and Spirit is separated. You can imagine Tatsuya Auto-Regrowth will work even you cut his head or destroy his head.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by hakazee

You may check volume 11


" This was the result based on the information he received from Pixie and after a lengthy discussion with Yakumo.

They did not attach themselves to the human body’s organs, but to the human spirit.
In that sense, it was no different striking anywhere on the body. Given that, he might as well seek the deepest connection and aimed for the heart that provided fuel for all cellular activity. "



Since Brain, Mind, and Spirit is separated. You can imagine Tatsuya Auto-Regrowth will work even you cut his head or destroy his head.

Hey Hakazee, quick question on one of your arguments I didn't quite understand.

Originally Posted by hakazee

Tatsuya is always like that you know.
he say someone is strong, that because he's only using a little of his power.

also now he already has Far Strike. the Bullets is so sturdy that it could destroy Phalanx.

this part. Exactly why do sturdy bullets matter against Phalanx? Like, at all? The problem isn't destroying phalanx. Tatsuya could already do that, easily in fact. He could destroy it over and over. The problem is, since it's phalanx, he'd have to destroy it over and over, and over, and over and over and over and over again. The problem with Phalanx isn't so much that it regenerates almost instantaneously, so Tatsuya would either have to be faster than it, or win a battle of Attrition. Even if Far Strike moves past Phalanx and reaches Juumonji, how exactly would it hurt him? It attacks the information body directly. It works on the vampires because they are an information body, it worked on Totsuka via the same concept because Totsuka was using that puppeteer magic, which to my understanding sort of wrapped his entire body in information thus his body suffered a sort of severe whiplash after being blown away. I'm pretty sure that scene states Far Strike isn't really a viable attack on a solid object IE a human body not wrapped in information.

So, not to really poke holes, I just genuinely do not understand how Far Strike would help Tatsuya win against Juumonji. Like at all.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by anonfr

Hey Hakazee, quick question on one of your arguments I didn't quite understand.



this part. Exactly why do sturdy bullets matter against Phalanx? Like, at all? The problem isn't destroying phalanx. Tatsuya could already do that, easily in fact. He could destroy it over and over. The problem is, since it's phalanx, he'd have to destroy it over and over, and over, and over and over and over and over again. The problem with Phalanx isn't so much that it regenerates almost instantaneously, so Tatsuya would either have to be faster than it, or win a battle of Attrition. Even if Far Strike moves past Phalanx and reaches Juumonji, how exactly would it hurt him? It attacks the information body directly. It works on the vampires because they are an information body, it worked on Totsuka via the same concept because Totsuka was using that puppeteer magic, which to my understanding sort of wrapped his entire body in information thus his body suffered a sort of severe whiplash after being blown away. I'm pretty sure that scene states Far Strike isn't really a viable attack on a solid object IE a human body not wrapped in information.

So, not to really poke holes, I just genuinely do not understand how Far Strike would help Tatsuya win against Juumonji. Like at all.

oh my bad, i'm too hype debate about this. i'm not sure about that actually.
my bad, maybe i'm wrong.


although i'm sure Tatsuya can cancel / break Phalanx magic in one shot with his Gram Dispersion.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by hakazee

oh my bad, i'm too hype debate about this. i'm not sure about that actually.
my bad, maybe i'm wrong.


although i'm sure Tatsuya can cancel / break Phalanx magic in one shot with his Gram Dispersion.

Yeah, You can be sure of that, because he can in fact break Phalanx with one shot using gram dispersion. the problem is, he'd have to break the next Phalanx, and the one after that, and the one after that.

The problem isn't so much that Tatsuya is weaker than Juumonji, it's just they're naturally ill suited. It's the classic story, the unstoppable force meets the immovable object, the sharpest blade meets the sturdiest shield, the best offense against the best defense.
and the best defense, in this case, is a shield that isn't impenetrable by its inability to be broken, it's impenetrable by the virtue of not being able to permanently make it go away. Like, AIDS, or the really annoying kid in your dorm that wants to be friends while you're trying to read. If you break it, it just pops back up again. Hence the battle of either speed or attrition.

[Echizen777]

Gram Dispersion and especially Zone Interference could suppress the barriers definitely. But practically those 2 counter magics work the same way, right? Gram Dispersion is not an energy ball like Gram Demolition.
When you use it you can't cast magic yourself so the user would be obliged to stop it if he wants to attack with magic.

Originally Posted by fujin of shadows

Rupture is useless against substance without liquid..

The Ichijou has rupture...Shippou has Million edge, the Juumonji has their Phalanx..

The Saegusa and Yotsuba does not have a signature magic, that is why they are omnipotent....

I think each Yotsuba have a signature magic. They have a strengthened mind manipulation magic or a superpowerful magic like Meteor Stream or Mist Dispersion.

You can say Miyuki's signature magic is Cocytus, Mitsugu's signature magic is Poisoned Bees, only Saegusas are considered omnipotent. Miyuki is an excellent magician but she is better at speed and freezing magic. She can't be well rounded like the Saegusa sisters.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Gram Dispersion and especially Zone Interference could suppress the barriers definitely. But practically those 2 counter magics work the same way, right? Gram Dispersion is not an energy ball like Gram Demolition.
When you use it you can't cast magic yourself so the user would be obliged to stop it if he wants to attack with magic.

If you're replying to me, I admit I mix up Gram Dispersion and Gram Demolition. You caught me, I give in. But my point was how the magic works against Phalanx, or actually how it doesn't work. so does that point still stand?

Originally Posted by Echizen777

I think each Yotsuba have a signature magic. They have a strengthened mind manipulation magic or a superpowerful magic like Meteor Stream or Mist Dispersion.

You can say Miyuki's signature magic is Cocytus, Mitsugu's signature magic is Poisoned Bees, only Saegusas are considered omnipotent. Miyuki is an excellent magician but she is better at speed and freezing magic. She can't be well rounded like the Saegusa sisters.

Completely agree with this. They both seemed to be clans filled with individually specialized magicians, instead of a hand me down specialized magic just for them.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by anonfr

If you're replying to me, I admit I mix up Gram Dispersion and Gram Demolition. You caught me, I give in. But my point was how the magic works against Phalanx, or actually how it doesn't work. so does that point still stand?

Actually I agree with you. I was responding to hakazee who said Gram Dispersion would be enough to beat Katsuto.

[kazzuya13]

Kinda late to asked this but why is the title for volume 12 "Double Seven"?

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Actually I agree with you. I was responding to hakazee who said Gram Dispersion would be enough to beat Katsuto.

Oh... Then thank you!

Originally Posted by kazzuya13

Kinda late to asked this but why is the title for volume 12 "Double Seven"?

Seagusa (seven) Twins
andd
Shippou (Seven)

The double refers either to the twins, or Seagusa and Shippou in general. At least as I understood

[BW95]

Originally Posted by kidswable

Simple fact, why the vampire need a host to do things when they obviously can cast magic only with mind?

They don't. Recall that in the last battle against that 9-headed snake, it didn't have a physical body, but it was still casting magic. There were also numerous previous occasions where the parasites casted magic without possessing anyone.

Originally Posted by hakazee

You may check volume 11


" This was the result based on the information he received from Pixie and after a lengthy discussion with Yakumo.

They did not attach themselves to the human body’s organs, but to the human spirit.
In that sense, it was no different striking anywhere on the body. Given that, he might as well seek the deepest connection and aimed for the heart that provided fuel for all cellular activity. "



Since Brain, Mind, and Spirit is separated. You can imagine Tatsuya Auto-Regrowth will work even you cut his head or destroy his head.

That is completely irrelevant. Parasites are fundamentally different beings. Just because they can cast magic without a physical body, which is their natural state, doesn't mean humans can.

Oh and side note here. I think Tatsuya could theoretically survive decapitation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can retain consciousness for like a second afterwards.

As for fatigue and psion reserves, doubtful. Honami's death through the loss of life force proved restoration doesn't work in the spirit and it has been shown to do nothing against pain. Psion is related to the spirit so no it wouldn't restore psions reserves. Fatigue is mental as well as physical too.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Gram Dispersion and especially Zone Interference could suppress the barriers definitely. But practically those 2 counter magics work the same way, right? Gram Dispersion is not an energy ball like Gram Demolition.
When you use it you can't cast magic yourself so the user would be obliged to stop it if he wants to attack with magic.

I think each Yotsuba have a signature magic. They have a strengthened mind manipulation magic or a superpowerful magic like Meteor Stream or Mist Dispersion.

You can say Miyuki's signature magic is Cocytus, Mitsugu's signature magic is Poisoned Bees, only Saegusas are considered omnipotent. Miyuki is an excellent magician but she is better at speed and freezing magic. She can't be well rounded like the Saegusa sisters.

For the record, Trident should theoretically work well against Phalanx. With two barriers and Juumonji as targets, it can eliminate them all consecutively without any time lag in between targets so as to prevent Juumonji from erecting any more barriers. So two Gram Dispersions and one Mist Dispersal.

Also, Poisoned Bees isn't Mitsugu's signature magic. The Yotsuba is the only clan in which all of its members are born with their own unique magic in addition to their elite magical abilities. Poisoned Bees is a knock-off of Genzou's Grim Reaper made usable by pretty much anyone and Mitsugu often uses it since his work mostly involves assassination. All the other families besides the Saegusa were optimized to use a family magic like the ones you mentioned.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by BW95

Also, Poisoned Bees isn't Mitsugu's signature magic. The Yotsuba is the only clan in which all of its members are born with their own unique magic in addition to their elite magical abilities. Poisoned Bees is a knock-off of Genzou's Grim Reaper made usable by pretty much anyone and Mitsugu often uses it since his work mostly involves assassination. All the other families besides the Saegusa were optimized to use a family magic like the ones you mentioned.

^Ohh I didn't realize this. Thank you for your input and lesson!

But I think in the broadness of having family magic, what was being referred too were the families that have one specific Magic.

Like Ichijou - Rupture
Shippou - Million edge
Juumonji - phalanx

Yotsuba doesn't have that, since they instead have magicians with great Mental Interference or a specialized powerful magic.

So I think concerning Saegusa is that they don't seem to have a singular family spell. They don't have a figurative "Phalanx" or "Rupture" as far as I can tell. So in the broadness of that, they're like the Yotsuba's

Specifically their magic does seem to be generally geared toward a specific area though.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by BW95

For the record, Trident should theoretically work well against Phalanx. With two barriers and Juumonji as targets, it can eliminate them all consecutively without any time lag in between targets so as to prevent Juumonji from erecting any more barriers. So two Gram Dispersions and one Mist Dispersal.

Nah that's it. But Phalanx and other magic only has single magic sequence.
So, one shot of Gram Dispersion is enough to cancel Phalanx.

Originally Posted by BW95

Also, Poisoned Bees isn't Mitsugu's signature magic. The Yotsuba is the only clan in which all of its members are born with their own unique magic in addition to their elite magical abilities. Poisoned Bees is a knock-off of Genzou's Grim Reaper made usable by pretty much anyone and Mitsugu often uses it since his work mostly involves assassination. All the other families besides the Saegusa were optimized to use a family magic like the ones you mentioned.

Originally Posted by anonfr

^Ohh I didn't realize this. Thank you for your input and lesson!

But I think in the broadness of having family magic, what was being referred too were the families that have one specific Magic.

Like Ichijou - Rupture
Shippou - Million edge
Juumonji - phalanx

Yotsuba doesn't have that, since they instead have magicians with great Mental Interference or a specialized powerful magic.

So I think concerning Saegusa is that they don't seem to have a singular family spell. They don't have a figurative "Phalanx" or "Rupture" as far as I can tell. So in the broadness of that, they're like the Yotsuba's

Specifically their magic does seem to be generally geared toward a specific area though.

But the Yotsuba is also famous because of their Mental Mind magic / Lunar Magic.
Only the Yotsuba that can has mental magic.


And in the other hand, Saegusa doesn't has anything like that.
They are only Strong All Rounder.

In the 10 MC only Saegusa like that and they're strong because Saegusa is the largest clan and has the most members.

I forgot where I read that Kudou or someone else said that " its a pity only Saegusa that has not Speciality magic even though they are 10 MC. "

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by hakazee

Nah that's it. But Phalanx and other magic only has single magic sequence.
So, one shot of Gram Dispersion is enough to cancel Phalanx.

Yes one shot is enough to dispel Phalanx, the problem is Phalanx would pop up again a second later.

Originally Posted by hakazee

But the Yotsuba is also famous because of their Mental Mind magic / Lunar Magic.
Only the Yotsuba that can has mental magic.

"

completely Irrelevant to my point.

Originally Posted by hakazee

And in the other hand, Saegusa doesn't has anything like that.
They are only Strong All Rounder.

In the 10 MC only Saegusa like that and they're strong because Saegusa is the largest clan and has the most members.

I forgot where I read that Kudou or someone else said that " its a pity only Saegusa that has not Speciality magic even though they are 10 MC. "

Relevant to my point.

My point, which wasn't even mine I'm just defending someone elses, Is that Saegusa and Yotsuba are similar in the aspect they don't have a family Magic in the same way Juumonji has Phalanx.

That's the only real thing I was talking about.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by anonfr

Yes one shot is enough to dispel Phalanx, the problem is
Phalanx would pop up again a second later.

Katsuto need to recast Phalanx.

He's already turn to dust when he try to recast.

You understand what I mean ?
Phalanx has many layers. Yes I agree.
But phalanx only single magic sequence
That means even though it has many layers but it only has single magic sequences.

One Gram Dispersion is enough.

Originally Posted by anonfr

Relevant to my point.

My point, which wasn't even mine I'm just defending someone elses, Is that Saegusa and Yotsuba are similar in the aspect they don't have a family Magic in the same way Juumonji has Phalanx.

That's the only real thing I was talking about.

Ah my bad. You're right.

Yotsuba doesn't has family magic but they have speciality magic.

And Saegusa is the only one that has no speciality.

[Luckmonth]

Originally Posted by hakazee

Katsuto need to recast Phalanx.

He's already turn to dust when he try to recast.

You understand what I mean ?
Phalanx has many layers. Yes I agree.
But phalanx only single magic sequence
That means even though it has many layers but it only has single magic sequences.

One Gram Dispersion is enough.




Ah my bad. You're right.

Yotsuba doesn't has family magic but they have speciality magic.

And Saegusa is the only one that has no speciality.

I think the phalanx is automatic. it does not need to build from scratch to create new barriers when the old one was destroyed

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by hakazee

Katsuto need to recast Phalanx.

He's already turn to dust when he try to recast.

You understand what I mean ?
Phalanx has many layers. Yes I agree.
But phalanx only single magic sequence
That means even though it has many layers but it only has single magic sequences.

One Gram Dispersion is enough.

Luckmonth got it right. Unlike me he said it the simple way.

Originally Posted by hakazee

Ah my bad. You're right.

Yotsuba doesn't has family magic but they have speciality magic.

And Saegusa is the only one that has no speciality.

Yeah sorry. I'm not so good at being concise and picking my words sometimes.

Originally Posted by Luckmonth

I think the phalanx is automatic. it does not need to build from scratch to create new barriers when the old one was destroyed

You are correct. Phalanx is automatic, so the whole recasting thing Isn't as much of an issue. At least that's my interpretation, as well as the common interpretation, as well as what's on the wiki!

http://mahouka-koukou-no-rettousei.w...atsuto#Phalanx

"Even if the initial barrier falters, the one behind would simply replace it, to be continued ad infinitum. The barriers are in constant motion within set boundaries, not necessarily in front of oneself, but rather dozens of barriers can be sent crashing at high speeds into the enemy."

You did duplicate post though.

[BW95]

Originally Posted by Luckmonth

I think the phalanx is automatic. it does not need to build from scratch to create new barriers when the old one was destroyed

There are initially two barriers. When the first one is destroyed, the second moves out to replace it while a replacement is simultaneously made to replace the inner barrier. Although there are two barriers, it's all just one spell, Phalanx. We know this, but if Tatsuya uses Gram Dispersion then all the barriers and even the replacement function will be gone to so Juumonji has to recast Phalanx.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by BW95

There are initially two barriers. When the first one is destroyed, the second moves out to replace it while a replacement is simultaneously made to replace the inner barrier.

Not limited to just 2 barriers though. There can be up to Dozens of Barriers. It's comparable to being a dense infantry unit.

[Luckmonth]

Originally Posted by anonfr

Luckmonth got it right. Unlike me he said it the simple way.




Yeah sorry. I'm not so good at being concise and picking my words sometimes.



You are correct. Phalanx is automatic, so the whole recasting thing Isn't as much of an issue. At least that's my interpretation, as well as the common interpretation, as well as what's on the wiki!

http://mahouka-koukou-no-rettousei.w...atsuto#Phalanx

"Even if the initial barrier falters, the one behind would simply replace it, to be continued ad infinitum. The barriers are in constant motion within set boundaries, not necessarily in front of oneself, but rather dozens of barriers can be sent crashing at high speeds into the enemy."

You did duplicate post though.

I'm bad. I'm not good in english

And also sorry about the duplicate post