Psycho-Pass - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[kk2extreme]

Akane is so boss now

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

But almost none of them have anything interesting to say.

I'm honestly wondering what you're looking for here.

I suppose a Sybil proponent more eloquent than Gino, and not Sibyl itself, would have been nice. Otherwise, all the key bases have been covered.

I guess that some of the characters are a bit static, but at least Akane has shown nice character development, imo.

[CJ_Walker]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

The episode where the HUMAN BRAINS got revealed pretty much stated this information outright. Anyone interpreting it any other way wasn't watching for content, or was just being willfully ignorant.

Pretty much this(and everything else you said in that post), thing is Gen's been saying this since episode one and using the rest of the series to point out how this would be so.

Most people couldn't recognize literary techniques if it shot them in the face with a blue-ish green beam and stunned them untill they recognized it, while referencing their I.Q. level with a number.

Hence: *WHOOOSH*

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

She understands him well enough to have imaginary conversations with him.

Which isn't very much. Hell, we the viewers don't understand Makishima that well. What on earth could compel you to go so far as to slaughter other human beings who never did anything wrong? Akane doesn't understand that either.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The narrative being that the Sibyl System is flawed? That's been touched on in every episode, and we keep finding new problems with it. This week's new feature is how awesomely secure Japan's food supply is.

That's a weakness in the system that could bring it down, not a flaw in how Sibyl operates society. I was merely talking about the point that Gen has been hammering home for many many episodes. Sibyl is a counter to free will. Are you denying that this is Gen's main point? This very episode spent a large amount of time on it.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Well, Akane wants the brains-in-a-jar to be tried for their crimes, so that should be a hint.

If you don't want to be specific in what you're saying, that's fine. But then don't pretend you predicted anything, because you haven't yet .

Originally Posted by garbage

Don't know why you would deny it after this episode, or not see it, but take note of the following conversations.
Akane: "if you guys broke the law sometime in the past, you should atone for your crimes in a befitting way" > Sibyl : "Our contributions to society are more than enough compensation for the damage we caused in the past"

Sibyl : "It is true that everyone of us here used to have many problems with our personalities"
"...we were all criminally asymptomatic persons...." that is why Akane said : " Are you saying that Sibyl is a monster that is a collection of wicked people's brains...?"
Sibyl itself admitted to this fact.

to the argument that "evil" or "bad" individual brains together as a whole makes a "good" collective...hmmm color me unconvinced, actually it's more total BS for me. the only reason Akane didn't outright blast them to kingdomcome, is because she IS good and knows there are proper ways with less collateral damage & better chance of success than sudden reckless actions. just like for an addict there has to be gradual rehabilitation. This society has been addicted to Sibyl, yeah it feels good & might look good on the outside but it is not the healthy way especially in the long run. The only question now is how they would do the rehab.A healthy balance between Order & not really "Chaos" but "true living" with individual will

Criminally asymptomatic does not necessarily imply that all the members of Sibyl are complete lunatics. Personally I do have some creative issues with Gen's choice to make them all criminally asymptomatic, but ultimately it is not that important. The same idea is around. This is a collective conscience and through addition of more idiosyncratic minds, the system further develops its ability to think and process information, and becomes more "perfect."

Sibyl's greatest justification is that society at large is peaceful, at least until Makishima came around. So whether or not we agree morally with Sibyl, the fact is that it has created order on a scale not seen in our world.

I agree that Sibyl overall is not good as it is right now. But that largely depends if you agree with Gen's argument about free will in this show and why it's important to life itself.

Originally Posted by garbage

the very basis of this statement is questionable, I don't really see this "perfection" Sibyl is trying to attain. Every human is unique in one way or another there really is no cookie cutter mold, sure there are plenty of similarities but no one individual is exactly like another or else we will no longer be human we would be BORG. There will ALWAYS be another makishima, no matter how many brains you add to the matrix. society can only hope to approach this by extreme measures/controls like in most police state propaganda, or like in the education system of Shin Sekai yori. so where does it end when they have a thousand?, a million? when most of the population is merged? Those societies are where progress and development has been stunted. hardly a perfect society. People in Psycho-pass Japan are already towing the line even in things like music, man they can't even do proper security...

Yes, a system cannot be bug free. That's why the police force exists. That's why they bring in these individuals they cannot understand into Sibyl. That's why for the preservation of the system, it is absolutely imperative that Akane now cooperates with Sibyl. The system does not have a future if it cannot adapt to new circumstances.

[Shiyumi]

Why argument accept or deny system when despite its faulty, it proved as much benefit and when there are third option that is improve the system. Look at what nuclear power plant's potential danger and what tragedy it has cause but we still able to improve it and make it contribute much more for or society.
About the criminal brain said about their contributes overweight their crimes, along time ago, I watch a detective TV series, one of episode deal with a doctor that commit crime to make moneys and done experiment that cost many life in order to create a vaccine that can prevent any illness of human. The MC caught him when he near death and try to save him, say that what he about to create is too value for the world, that he can't condemn or stop him.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

But almost none of them have anything interesting to say.

I disagree I think they all (well all the main characters) have interesting things to say. Do any of them have new things to say, well not really. But I don't think new and interesting are the same thing.

But it seems to me the characters are being used as Urobuchi's own mouth pieces for many different ideas & philosophies. Obviously they are not Urobuchi's own ideas and he might not even agree with everything the characters are sprouting but I enjoy the many different philosophies and literary references in the series.

[Dengar]

Perfect 10
Just my personal opinion of course, but this episode once again confirmed to me that Akane is a wonderful, beautiful being. She immediately recognizes the Sibyl system for the abomination that it is, and at the same time realises that she cannot destroy Sibyl or make its existence public. She understands that the system is needed and going along with the system's wishes is the best course of action. Yet despite this, her resolve does not waver. If she is to be a pawn, she'll never stand for being an unwitting pawn ever again, and she will not force herself to like what Sibyl is doing. Despite being played, she even found a way to play the system back, if it's only a little bit. It's because she understands why Sibyl wants to get their hands on Makishima's brain.

The Discussion
Two things occurred to me while reading the discussion in this thread:

-There are apparently people in this thread who would like Akane to destroy Japan. I am unsure why they would want to do this, but they probably have some reason for this. I'm interested in hearing it.
-I don't think anyone has mentioned the benefit of integrating Makishima into the system.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Perfect 10
Just my personal opinion of course, but this episode once again confirmed to me that Akane is a wonderful, beautiful being. She immediately recognizes the Sibyl system for the abomination that it is, and at the same time realises that she cannot destroy Sibyl or make its existence public. She understands that the system is needed and going along with the system's wishes is the best course of action. Yet despite this, her resolve does not waver. If she is to be a pawn, she'll never stand for being an unwitting pawn ever again, and she will not force herself to like what Sibyl is doing. Despite being played, she even found a way to play the system back, if it's only a little bit. It's because she understands why Sibyl wants to get their hands on Makishima's brain.

Although I absolutely love Akane and agree she is awesome I think we need to appreciate Kagari.

Kagari obviously didn't get the character development that Akane did but I enjoyed his conviction in the end that he hoped Makishima and his partner would destroy the sybil system but he was still against them.

Strangely enough Akane and Kagari seemed to come to different conclusions about the sybil system but they both stuck to own beliefs and convictions at the end which is something I admire.

I am not really sure what I think about Kougami's actions just yet and I will have to see how it all plays out. Kougami's ideas are closer to Kagari (and perhaps my own) but I am not sure if I agree with him going off on his own.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

But on the contrary, even Akane reluctantly agrees that the system brought peace and order, taking the common idea of the ends justifies the means (not saying that she agrees with their approach).

I very much disagree that Akane is concurring with the Sybil system is ideal. The fact that a couple of episodes ago she was talking about the possibility of going back to an older judiciary system to try to deal with someone like Makishima indicates that at this point she's considering the possibility for a method of government much different from Sybil as being superior. At this point Akane does NOT think Sybil is an ideal system of government.


The only argument Sybil made was that they were too big to fail. That if they were to fall, it would cause a ludicrous amount of human suffering. Sybil has in essence, over the course of decades, taken the entire nation of Japan hostage by enfeebling it. Akane cooperating with Sybil isn't agreeing with the philosophy or actions of the hostage takers. All she's doing is keeping the Makishima (or the Russian Special forces) from leveling the building with the hostages inside it.

At this point its pretty obvious that if it had been up to Akane as she is now whether or not to transition to a system like Sybil, that she'd adamantly refuse.

Originally Posted by Dengar

-I don't think anyone has mentioned the benefit of integrating Makishima into the system.

Largely because Sybil itself hasn't exactly been all that clear about what specific benefits it would entail. So far all they've said is that Makishima would help expand their hive mind. The question is, what does this mean?

Does it empirically improve Sybils ability to quantify crime coefficient? I'm sure if you asked sybil it'd SAY that it did. But I don't quite trust the objectivity of beings who so casually make claims to godhood. And even if it would expand/improve Sybil...would the way Sybil would end up improved be something that would translate into actual benefits for ordinary people? Does Makishima provide the insight for Sybil to realize that a certain people aren't really latent criminals? Does it help it figure out more fulfilling careers for a larger number of people? Or would Makishima merely be widening the definition for latent criminal, to better identify potential enemies of the state?

[merakses]

I think that we're being a bit too hasty in concluding that criminally asymptomatic=sociopath who committed crimes. Outside of Sybil, we've only seen three asymptomatic people. Of them, Touma is clearly a psychopath/sociopath, and Akane is clearly not; while Makishima might seem like one, let's try and check him with an official test like PCL-R:

Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
Glibness/superficial charm - true
Grandiose sense of self-worth - probably true
Pathological lying - false: I can't remember a part in the show where Makishima lied.
Conning/manipulative - well, he certainly is cunning, but the same thing as above applies for the manipulativeness; so 50/50 on this one
Lack of remorse or guilt - true
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric) - debatable, but let's assume true (although I do think that he genuinely liked both Choe gu-song (they were friends for a long time) and Senguji (Makishima seemed impressed at his decision to stay and fight Kogami after the latter got a Dominator)
Callousness; lack of empathy - true
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions - false (episode 11: he is aware that his actions may lead to being shot by Akane and completely accepts that as an outcome)
Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom - most likely true
Parasitic lifestyle - no information; but this is pretty much inapplicable in a system governed by Sybil (no obvious way to use connections/manipulation), so I'm leaning more to 'false' here.
Poor behavioral control - false
Lack of realistic long-term goals - false ("I want to witness the splendor of the human soul. I want to see and check if it really is valuable.")
Impulsivity - false
Irresponsibility - most likely false
Juvenile delinquency - unknown
Early behavior problems - unknown
Revocation of conditional release - inapplicable under Sybil
Traits not correlated with either factor:
Promiscuous sexual behavior - unknown, but probably false
Many short-term (marital) relationships - false, as far as we know
Criminal versatility (a diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.) - we've only really seen him murder (or help others murder), and I don't really think that he feels anything about the act itself; so false
Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive) - not sure what exactly is meant here; once again, I don't really think that Makishima has openly 'deceived' anybody up to this point, but I'm not sure that this is all the meaning contains. I'm neutral on this one.

For anybody who's keeping count, that's 6 true, 8 false (some aren't 100% sure, but still) and 7 unknown/undecided/inapplicable. Make what you want of this result.

Also, studies (I could look up the exact names if you want) have shown that from a general sample, about 0,5% are potential psychopaths (scored 13+ on the PCL:SV, a simplified version of the PCL:R). If I remember correctly, criminally asymptomatic people were rarer that 1/1000000 = 0.000001%, which is ...less. All of this (and Akane) leads me to believe that the criteria that defines criminally asymptomatic people is more complex than ASPD, psychopathy, sociopathy or something like that.

P.S. Also, I don't know how many members did Sybil have at it's inception, but I find it unlikely that any of them were criminals. All in all, there is too much of the big picture we aren't being told: When was Sybil created(it was at least 50 years back, but how long exactly)? How many people were originally in it? How were they chosen? When and how was the first asymptomatic person found? I sincerely hope that Uro eventually gives an answer to at least some of these questions.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm honestly wondering what you're looking for here.

I suppose a Sybil proponent more eloquent than Gino, and not Sibyl itself, would have been nice. Otherwise, all the key bases have been covered.

The problem isn't a lack of eloquence, it's a lack of substance. When you boil it down, most of the characters don't have a lot to say but they still take forever to say it. The worst culprit is Makishima because his main schtick is to name drop writers without contributing anything to his monologues. And then the same arguments get repeated ad nauseum.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I guess that some of the characters are a bit static, but at least Akane has shown nice character development, imo.

Akane's the best thing in the show right now, but I wish that her development wasn't so sudden. It's like she got a massive shot of competence after clocking Makishima.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Which isn't very much. Hell, we the viewers don't understand Makishima that well. What on earth could compel you to go so far as to slaughter other human beings who never did anything wrong? Akane doesn't understand that either.

What's so hard to understand about that? Human beings have a built-in instinct that keeps us from killing one another on a casual basis. Makishima's wiring excludes this instinct, so he kills whenever he feels like it. Grossman's On Killing is a pretty good examination of this and related phenomenon.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That's a weakness in the system that could bring it down, not a flaw in how Sibyl operates society. I was merely talking about the point that Gen has been hammering home for many many episodes. Sibyl is a counter to free will. Are you denying that this is Gen's main point? This very episode spent a large amount of time on it.

The most important part of operating a society is security. By failing to defend the food supply, the Sibyl System is failing that.

The free will aspect may be the one that's been hammered the most (is it actually? I haven't been keeping score), but it's not the only flaw that's been touched upon. And it's certainly not the most important one.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

If you don't want to be specific in what you're saying, that's fine. But then don't pretend you predicted anything, because you haven't yet .

You can't figure out a character's intentions when she wants certain entities tried for crimes? Do I have to spell out that Akane would love to see the Sibyl System be obliterated?

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But it seems to me the characters are being used as Urobuchi's own mouth pieces for many different ideas & philosophies. Obviously they are not Urobuchi's own ideas and he might not even agree with everything the characters are sprouting but I enjoy the many different philosophies and literary references in the series.

The literary references are the worst part though.

Originally Posted by Dengar

The Discussion
Two things occurred to me while reading the discussion in this thread:

-There are apparently people in this thread who would like Akane to destroy Japan. I am unsure why they would want to do this, but they probably have some reason for this. I'm interested in hearing it.
-I don't think anyone has mentioned the benefit of integrating Makishima into the system.

Do note that Akane's already mulled over the idea of going back to the old system.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Strangely enough Akane and Kagari seemed to come to different conclusions about the sybil system but they both stuck to own beliefs and convictions at the end which is something I admire.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[Dengar]

^Akane should not be counted, to be eligible for the term "Criminally asymptomatic" would require the individual to be criminal, whereas Akane is not.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Do note that Akane's already mulled over the idea of going back to the old system.

Which equates to "I must destroy Japan" how?

Not even mentioning the fact that the desire to destroy Japan would make her Crime Coefficient skyrocket.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The literary references are the worst part though.

Why? what is wrong with literary references. I am finally reading Gulliver's travels because of them.

It's not like Gen pretends where he got them from. He's very truthful that all the quotes are coming from somewhere else but I think it adds richness to the story.

It actually kind of reminds me of a paper we had to write in college where you had to have a lot of different philosophers have a discussion. In Psychopass the dialog is coming from many different sources but when you combine these different sources that is what makes the discussions interesting to me.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I am absolutely sure Akane has come to a different conclusion from Kagari. That doesn't mean I think she has sided with the sybil system.

But at the most I see Akane going for change not destruction.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But at the most I see Akane going for change not destruction.

Change requires the destruction of Sybil.

Sybil is NOT Japan. It likes to pretend it is. That it is too important to be shut down. That the nation is doomed without 250 brains in boxes telling everyone how to breath. But that's just self preservation talking.

Too big to fail is too big to exist. Break it down, replace it with a normal government system with oversight, and the citizens would be non the wiser.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Sybil is NOT Japan. It likes to pretend it is. That it is too important to be shut down. That the nation is doomed without 250 brains in boxes telling everyone how to breath. But that's just self preservation talking.

Too big to fail is too big to exist. Break it down, replace it with a normal government system with oversight, and the citizens would be non the wiser.

....

How is that better? Wait don't answer that yet.

How is one person going to pull this off?

Yeah that's the better question.

[Haak]

And so it begins...

The Sybl's system argument that Akane didn't have the guts to really go against it was very powerful but it really applies to a lot of us. I'm sure a lot of have "raged against the machine" but not a lot of us have been confident enough to say we could provide a better alternative. And Akane's tortured conversations with her dead friends was really good. It added a lot to her character imo.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Which equates to "I must destroy Japan" how?

Why do you think that there's any correlation? I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of options besides "maintain Sibyl System" and "destroy Japan".

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Why? what is wrong with literary references. I am finally reading Gulliver's travels because of them.

It's not like Gen pretends where he got them from. He's very truthful that all the quotes are coming from somewhere else but I think it adds richness to the story.

The problem lies in how the references are used. They're dropped in with maybe an additional quote or two, and that's it. This adds nothing to an argument, depth to characterization, nor does it do anything theme-wise.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

It actually kind of reminds me of a paper we had to write in college where you had to have a lot of different philosophers have a discussion. In Psychopass the dialog is coming from many different sources but when you combine these different sources that is what makes the discussions interesting to me.

It would be a lot better if just one or two literary pieces are brought up and explored to a degree of depth. As is though, it's just intellectual masturbation.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dengar

....

How is that better? Wait don't answer that yet.

How is one person going to pull this off?

Yeah that's the better question.

First, Sybil needs to be shut down. Anything less is unacceptable. What's important isn't HOW, but that no matter the means, it needs to be done one way or another.

Japan had many regime and government changes in the past. It can survive another. And with much of the nation automated, it won't take many people to reboot the government and get everything back in order. There is nothing wrong with the robots themselves that are working, we just need to change the people giving orders.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why do you think that there's any correlation? I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of options besides "maintain Sibyl System" and "destroy Japan".

You didn't name any.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

First, Sybil needs to be shut down. Anything less is unacceptable. What's important isn't HOW, but that no matter the means, it needs to be done one way or another.

Explain to how to destroy a peaceful society without destroying a peaceful society.

Or how to remove a person's brain without killing the person.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You didn't name any.

Really? What's this then:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Do note that Akane's already mulled over the idea of going back to the old system.