(L) Black Lagoon: The Second Barrage

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Crystal_Method

In episode 22 the whole converation between yukio and rock, I recall rock comparing yukio with revy. This is just a hunch, but does that mean revy got forced into a life of killing, and basically taking a stepinto the "darkside", as well? I'm not sure because all I remember about revy's past is that she was blamed for something she didn't do and in the end she had to kill someone (maybe her father, I can't remember.)



She isn't exactly saying you can't stand between good and bad. Actually she even said that she would do the same if she could. She was saying that it's impossible for him to help her without choosing which side to be on. The best way to explain it would be divine law vs. manmade law (For the world of bl we will be using the term manmade law to replace loyalty to whom ever you serve whether it is hotel moscow, yakuza, triads, or w/e.) In this case divine law would be to help yukio and defy the orders from balaika and manmade law would be to turn away as if you see nothing and just do your job. Basically, I believe that yukio is right, the truth of the matter is that if rock helps yukio, he will surely be killed by balaika. If not, he will just have to deal with yukio being killed by balaika. But you never know, maybe rock can come up with something. The decision rests on balaika's shoulders too, whether to kill rock, kill yukio, or let them both go and shed some kind of humanity for all of us. Those balaika flashbacks must have some role in what will happen.

I agree Rock has shown us in the past that he can be pretty resourful and can think out side the box. Im not saying that any plan he comes up with with work but he will come up something. However is Bala is dead intent on killing Yukio then Rock will have to make that choice. I think the writers are purposly making it so it looks like there are only 2 choices for Rock but in the end will give us a great twist. Bala past does play a role like i stated before Bala, Revy and Yukio all share similar traits of that past and present that determined how they view the world and their place in it. I could very easily see Yukio becoming like Bala if she did win

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

I think it was done on purpose. First of all, it had to pierce body armor. Second of all, it had to be a 'true' silenced weapon. Since the standard silencer cannot suppress a sonic boom, the cartridge had to be subsonic (i.e. less than ~330 m/s).

Ergo...

The weight trade off for velocity issue is well known these day. All in all the Vintorez's bullet comes out to possess a little more than half the initial muzzle energy of an AK-74 bullet; which weighs a fifth of the weight but has muzzle velocity three times as great.

Flip side: Big bullet mass also means that it retains its energy far better than a light projectile out to long ranges and is less affected by wind. Much talk about returning to cartridges that are bigger for this reason, after experiences in Iraq; how light bullets actually have performance issues, particularly with power and penetration.

Read somewhere after lazy googling that the Vintorez makes... 130db? "Indistinguishable from regular urban noise" or something.

Now, back to the story: Whose a fan of Roberta here?

[Ronin Aquila]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Now, back to the story: Whose a fan of Roberta here?

You got one right here, buddy.

[Skane]

Eagerly awaiting her reappearance in Season3.

[Firefly00]

Originally Posted by Tempest35

Rock might have had a year to get used to Ronapaur, Black Lagoon, and to Revy, but even so, I wouldn't expect Rock to be begging Revy to show him how to shoot a gun - that's not his MO. He doesn't want to turn into some heartless cynic who does what he does just because 'it's a job' as Dutch often says. It's a part of Rock that I hope will never die and I think that Revy would rather take a bullet than let that little part of Rock die as well - it's what attracts her to him...

Interesting musings all around; the first paragraph quoted specifically because it reminds me a little of another 'fish out of water': Dr. Daniel Jackson. Admittedly, however, it's been a while since I got to watch Stargate SG-1.
Also in this vein - especially with the light/dark analogy - I recollect that a similar choice is a major part of the KOTOR games.
Oh, and to amplify a recent posting of Cal-Reflector's, I present the specific page from which he got the VSS image.

[ReaderT]

Episode 23... I wanna cry! Not for the story, but the worst animation quality in BL!

The director apologized in his blog for the animation quality. He (and Madhouse) outsourced the animation to a Chinese animation company for this episode, but the company created the terrible animation! The director and Madhouse made changes until the deadline, but they could not correct all things...

[flosduellatorum]

I haven't seen ep 23, yet, but as we know, all discussions of firearms interest me. I'm glad that more forumites are also taking an interest in these very interesting human force-multiplying tools.

Using a massive bullet that weights nearly twice as much as standard 7.62mm NATO ball (And five times as much as the AK-74 ammo which is the mainstay for Balalaika's troops), the bullet crawls along at some 300meters/second (compared to 1000m/s of an M16), said to be lethal out to 300-400 meters.

Heavy bullet helps, but with such slow velocity and short barrel length (20 centimers; the ubiquitous Druganov rifle's barrel is three times as long, and that's not even considered a True sniper rifle) I wonder if its really that accurate. I don't doubt the elephant-bullet hurts when it lands, but its gotta land on target first.

My experience with so-called sniper rifles is zero. I used the AR group, and just left the line when ARs were getting supplanted by MP-5s. Now most of those who are still working have changed to the UMP, which is more modern than the MP-5 and cheaper.
My understanding is that when you have a light bullet, like the 5.56mmNATO, it needs to go at least near 2500fps to penetrate for sure "basic" soft body armour at "normal" ranges of engagement, and also expand/tumble when it hits through flesh. Thus when you cut down the barrel of the M-16 from 20inches to 14 inches in what the americans use today in Iraq(M4), it just barely makes it. Unfortunately when you cut the barrel, it causes more problems in the AR design(overheating, too-rapid fire, etc) partially because of the direct gas impingement system. Thus the M4 is OK if you don't use it too much, and you gotta clean it 3? times a day as SOP.
Unfortunately short-barrelled rifles are now very popular because of urban warfare, where you go into rooms and have no space to swing your 20inch barrel about. But shorter barrel=less velocity=less penetration for light bullets(that penetrate OK from the longer barrel).
Back to heavy bullets, that is going the other way of light and fast. You get less crack and less deviation because of bullet mass. Whether it works better than other ideas is something I am unsure of. One thing the shooter will have to be aware of is the arc of the bullet, it is going to be like throwing a basketball. For sure it won't shoot very flat, it'll be like your 230gr, 800+fps .45ACP in your handgun, it's gonna arc like a basketball.

Next, carrying all that heavy ammo is going to be horrible(if you have to do it). How many rounds can you carry? With the 5.56mm, a normal person can carry a few hundred rounds and she is OK. A big guy can carry a thousand. But with super heavy bullets, I'd better bring a maid along to carry 'em.

For the americans, they use the barett rifle, shooting .50BMG. I am not sure of the velocities and arc.
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This what the americans use:
http://www.barrettrifles.com/
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I tried to d/l 23, but the firewall of this place can't be gotten through.

Originally Posted by questmark

and saying that us boys are just going around gabbing about how cute Revy is and how many panty shots there are in the show just isn't true flos. That doesn't give the conversation, or the male population here, here half the credit it deserves. :P

OK, I was rude there(actually teasing), so let me apologize and offer to have cigarettesex with you.

Actually I am quite shocked by the sensitivity and perception shown by all the male commentators here. this results in great discussions about the motivations of the characters and also the plotline.
I'd like to thank:
Shiroth, SeijiS, TV, slates, questmark, trax, cal-reflector, sinestra, MrProphet, Tempest, WMbun, BRG for all their contributions to the discussion.

I notice 3 mains points(to me) in the previous comments:
1)The character of Revy
2)How violence is portaryed in BL
3)Light and dark.

Let me come back later and discuss these.

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by flosduellatorum

I haven't seen ep 23, yet, but as we know, all discussions of firearms interest me. I'm glad that more forumites are also taking an interest in these very interesting human force-multiplying tools.

My experience with so-called sniper rifles is zero. I used the AR group, and just left the line when ARs were getting supplanted by MP-5s. Now most of those who are still working have changed to the UMP, which is more modern than the MP-5 and cheaper.
My understanding is that when you have a light bullet, like the 5.56mmNATO, it needs to go at least near 2500fps to penetrate for sure "basic" soft body armour at "normal" ranges of engagement, and also expand/tumble when it hits through flesh. Thus when you cut down the barrel of the M-16 from 20inches to 14 inches in what the americans use today in Iraq(M4), it just barely makes it. Unfortunately when you cut the barrel, it causes more problems in the AR design(overheating, too-rapid fire, etc) partially because of the direct gas impingement system. Thus the M4 is OK if you don't use it too much, and you gotta clean it 3? times a day as SOP.
Unfortunately short-barrelled rifles are now very popular because of urban warfare, where you go into rooms and have no space to swing your 20inch barrel about. But shorter barrel=less velocity=less penetration for light bullets(that penetrate OK from the longer barrel).
Back to heavy bullets, that is going the other way of light and fast. You get less crack and less deviation because of bullet mass. Whether it works better than other ideas is something I am unsure of. One thing the shooter will have to be aware of is the arc of the bullet, it is going to be like throwing a basketball. For sure it won't shoot very flat, it'll be like your 230gr, 800+fps .45ACP in your handgun, it's gonna arc like a basketball.

Next, carrying all that heavy ammo is going to be horrible(if you have to do it). How many rounds can you carry? With the 5.56mm, a normal person can carry a few hundred rounds and she is OK. A big guy can carry a thousand. But with super heavy bullets, I'd better bring a maid along to carry 'em.

For the americans, they use the barett rifle, shooting .50BMG. I am not sure of the velocities and arc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This what the americans use:
http://www.barrettrifles.com/

What was your line of work? UMP becoming more popular than MP5? Really? Wow, I heard it was cheaper, but didn't know about the wide usage.

Friend in the 82nd Airborne whose now in Iraq says he can shoot alot better with the M4 than the M16A4, quite convinced about it, too. But that's just one soldier's opinion, and probably other factors at work.

On weight of ammo: Yeah, ability to carry more's a big factor in the whole trend to small caliber in the first place. Not an issue with Balalaika's crew though; no longer in war, but missions, certainly not an issue with the way the VSS Vintorez was intended to be use; Spec-Ops precision wet work; all that matters is performance then. I still haven't heard someone bring up its accuracy reputation.

We (Americans) use the Barett nominally as an anti-materiel rifle; like the anti-tank rifles of old; of course its Xbox!huge. Not really fair to compare that to a special shortty-sniper like the Vintorez.

Roberta fans: Wasn't there one guy who was gonna tell me where the latest raw scans were?

[Majek]

No way they've got VSS in BL too? Balalaika must realy have good connections or they swiped some when they left fro Roanapur XD
but the again Mr. Chang carries around 2 Berretas mod.76 so this shouldn't be surprising at all

[flosduellatorum]

For Cal-Reflector:

Down here, we are a bit slow in using new stuff, hence the very late changeover to the UMP. The old MP-5 is very lasting(thus a good buy from the economical view), cause it last and lasts(just replace the springs, nothing else), but I'm told that:
1)the safety/selector is damn difficult to manip with your thumb, so that ppl here actually use their other hand to turn it.
2)It isn't easy to reload, as you have to sort of wiggle the new mag in, whereas the UMP you just ram it in(I could be wrong here).
Down here, the 9mm is still prevalent, .40 and .45 is seldom found in most govt depts.
The way I was taught last time is to carry all stuff empty chamber, and only rack when you gonna use it. I guess that is how safety-conscious departments always teach their employees. It's slow but cuts down on accidents/admin problems for the heads.
Anyway, I have always been a knife collector, so thats my primary avenue if I have no time to access my firearm.

Sorry, I'm not interested in discussing my previous work. But there was no light/dark there. Using firearms is a honorable line to me. Military, law enforcement, bodyguarding, contract work, are all honorable professions to me.

Light/dark is not a function of your line(yakuza or policewoman, soldier) or occupation, IMHO, it's a function of your character and how you behave in whatever line you are in.

If you look at rock, his character is not gonna change no matter what he is doing with the BL crew. Thus he will always be in the light, because of his morally good character.

As for Revy, I guess I am identifying with her. She needs to learn better firerams safety and stop pointing her guns everywhere for the slightest reason. She also needs to control her anger and be more polite to all those around her.

About Revy offing innocent ppl, some honorable forumites have complained that she isn't selective about who she shoots. Honestly speaking, in the anime I haven't seen her shoot anyone I would not shoot myself if I were suddenly magically transported into the anime. Shooting ppl in the back in the bowling alley? Me too. They are all considered bad and dangerous, they could go out, get more guns and come back inside. Shooting that goofball who stuttered, "give, give!", what's wrong with that? What are we gonna do? Tie him up, and thus get close to him? Get knifed? Get your gun grabbed? Open yourself to more risk?
There's only one of revy and dozens of these yaks. Anyone could just come from behind her and put one into the back of her head. So I got no problems with her behaviour.
Abt Revy laughing when she is shooting, if the target is right in front of you, you can do that(like that goofball). Not when you are concentrating on moving targets, you got no time for silly facial expressions. That's not realistic. In real life, her face would be a dead as glass.
But then it wouldn't look good on TV would it?

Friend in the 82nd Airborne whose now in Iraq says he can shoot alot better with the M4 than the M16A4, quite convinced about it, too. But that's just one soldier's opinion, and probably other factors at work.

Guns are always a very personal thing. M16A4 has the 20 inch barrel, I think. M4 has the 14inch barrel. But nowadays, ppl put all sorts of optics on their piece. Maybe he has some mod with the M4 that makes him shoot better, or maybe the M-16A4 was just a lousy piece that he got by bad luck(when he was in training or qualifying?)

Is the A4 the one with the 3 shot burst and no full auto? I read that a complaint from that is that it does not reset after a less than 3 shot burst, so if you fire 2, then the next time you squeeze 1 comes out, or something like that(I could be wrong). This sounds really impractical to me.

I understand that the AR series is very accurate in fast fire, because less moving parts(no gas piston) means less vibration between shots. Also is very ergonomic.

But direct gas impingement system means gas from barrel is shunted back into the chamber to push the bolt back. In all other rifles, the gas pushes a piston that pushes the bolt. The gas in the AR system dirties/encrusts the chamber and heats the parts(failure from heat-induced breakage) up more than other rifles. This is known to cause failure when you shoot lots of rounds. Thus the americans have dealt with this by making their soldiers clean their rifles 3 times a day, which is a bit much.

From the internet, I see some individual american units are converting to the HK416, which is like an AR, but uses a gas piston instead. This takes away the problems of the ARs, but leaves its nice ergonomics.
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[flosduellatorum]

Deleted. Double posting.

PS--I hope your friend in Iraq stays safe there and comes home in one piece with her job done.

[White Manju Bun]

I knew it wasnt gonna happen but

Spoiler:

but for a split second I thought Bala was gonna shoot Rock. Her tossing him on to the car was pretty cool tho

dang only 1 epi left

[Cal-Reflector]

Flosdualltorum: Thanks, sure he'll appreciate the thought. Here's a pic of him in Iraq btw. Probably been busy; only heard from him once after he landed in Iraq, operational security might be an issue too. His job is M240B gunner, heavy weapons.



Now you've got me all curious and pulling my brain to try and figure what your previous line of work was; will respect your desire not to discuss it, but still can't help being curious, especially when you sound so convincing. So I'll just take one jab; don't need to respond if it makes you uncomfortable:

If you're indeed in SEAsia, I think you're either from Singapore or the Phillipines because your English is good, but the expression "dead as glass" feels British. Probably former police, not military from the familiarity with SMGs. But if your former work was in Singapore, the one thing that confuses me is what you said about the AR; it sounds as though you know it well... by reputation, but every male in Singapore becomes a conscript, and the standard Singaporean rifle is an AR-derived piece (as is the case in South Korea). So... your time of comment postings doesn't help me, since it'd have been Wednesday afternoon in SEAsia.

Ok, that's all, no more questions and probes, back to the show.

Ummm... right. Quite futile criticizing Revy, or any fictional movie/show not attempting a war documentary, for inaccurate portrayal of weapons and their application. Revy's never had any formal training either, so safe handling procedure probably isn't the first thing on her mind. Those who would have had training in our show would be Balalaika and... Roberta.

Sad to hear about the bad animation quality in 23; the most important episode on which the whole arc and season II hinges and they farm it out to someone who did a bad job, what a nightmare.

[MrProphet]

Just another reason to buy the DVDs and see the corrected version. 8)

[flosduellatorum]

Abt your friend in iraq, there are a lot more people than you know who actually support what the americans are doing in iraq, than you might know from reading the NYTimes or Washington Post, or Reuters, or BBC.

It is fashionable to criticise american actions and GWB in the mainstream media, more difficult if you get asked, then what will you do? Do nothing? Then if something bad happens to your people afterwards, will you take the blame?

We know what is happening there is really not nice, but sometimes you have to do not nice things in order to deal with horrible people. In the process, a lot of innocent/unrelated people are gonna get killed, it's always that way.

Down here, we know what it is like, when you have to deal with religious extremists who just want to dominate(and will kill you if you resist), the massive racial/religious riots of the 70s and 60s make us very aware of the danger.

Your friend is doing an honorable job over there and I respect him. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, these are people who just don't know the way the world works.

As Revy said to the kids: "Hey, you brats! You wanna shoot easy? Go to Lebanon!"
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On the AR-15, down here, almost anyone who has handled firearms will have come across it as some of the countries here make it under licence, like singapore and possibly the philippines. Some basic guns are made in Indonesia, like the Browning Hi-power, but I think not licenced, and of course, Norinco makes almost everything, and it comes out through thailand. This is AR country, not AK country.
Thus anytime you have to carry a rifle, be you in military, law enforcement, security, the chances are, it is gonna be an AR.
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To the creators and ppl who sell the DVDs, no worries, I'll be getting a set also, for all your hardwork. This is one I will keep for my kid to watch when he is older. Hopefully he won't say it's too "violent".

[MrProphet]

Oh, and I might disappoint some of you, but I seriously doubt that there will be another series of Black Lagoon.

Just the facts... There is no more manga material to animate. With 24 episodes, they've gone through 6 volumes of manga, 42 chapters. The so called "new arc" is still just a single story arc, worth maybe 3-4 episodes, tops.

I think you'd better prepare yourselves to the fact that the next episode will be final.

[questmark]

Originally Posted by flosduellatorum

OK, I was rude there(actually teasing), so let me apologize and offer to have cigarettesex with you.

LOL!! But I'm a cigarettesex virgin still!!! And at 30 no less!! LOL

No biggee about the teasing re: the opinions of guys. I'm sensitive about that topic I guess-- you know, after you've been asked to fulfill a certain role for people for a long time, you sometimes no longer feel like obliging. Nothing personal with you-- more me.

As for BL continuing-- I don't see why we couldn't assume they'd just wait a year and do another one once they've got a couple more volumes of the manga. As with all things, it's usually a matter of $. If it's profitable, I'm sure they'll do it. And if it's really profitable, they'll do it before the manga's continued, and screw the whole thing up...... Therefore, we shouldn't buy to much of the merchandise!?!? ...but just enough. :P

[MrProphet]

OK, let's say they wait. It then boils down to math.

Fujimaya Gangsta Paradise arc (the longest one so far) was 16 chapters long, which translated into 6 episodes. Most story arcs are about 6 chapters and 3 episodes long. I think we can take the latter as a rough benchmark. So, for a full run of 12 episodes we'd need somewhere in the vicinity of 24-26 chapters.

The last chapter was, AFAIK, #49. That makes for 7 unanimated chapters of the manga. 26-7=19. Black Lagoon comes out monthly, so that's 19 months to go just to have enough story material. Add about 6-8 month for production, and we are looking at an estimated 2-2.5 years before we see another whiff of Black Lagoon. And with the kind of short memory that Japanese fans have these days, 2 years easily translates into "Ain't Gonna Happen".

Sorry. I wouldn't mind some of this stuff either, but it just looks a bit far-fetched. And what with the "anime original" ending, it sounds to me like Madhouse will be ending the story of Black Lagoon while they are still riding the crest of popularity. If you ask me... that's the smart thing to do.

[Trax]

That's a shame, hope they wrap it up nicely at least.

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Add about 6-8 month for production, and we are looking at an estimated 2-2.5 years before we see another whiff of Black Lagoon. And with the kind of short memory that Japanese fans have these days, 2 years easily translates into "Ain't Gonna Happen".

Sorry. I wouldn't mind some of this stuff either, but it just looks a bit far-fetched. And what with the "anime original" ending, it sounds to me like Madhouse will be ending the story of Black Lagoon while they are still riding the crest of popularity. If you ask me... that's the smart thing to do.

Lies, all lies!! Those who are faithful will be rewarded! The day of Slam Dunk 2 is near! We shall see Sendoh and Rukawa again!!

The more talk about this anime-original ending the more nervous I become.