Honey and Clover II

[Knowledge Seeker]

It took me two years to watch this anime.

TWO YEARS.

I have no idea why I didn't start the second season sooner. Anyway, this was a great second season. After watching and enjoying Seirei No Moribito, I felt like I was going to be drifting through shows again. But I finished this within two days and don't regret getting sucked in. The story, pacing, and character development were wonderful. While season one was spectacular, I find season two to be more gripping as more situations were introduced. I particularly liked Kaoru's backstory.

I'm now starting to prefer character development over action thanks to series like this.

[Ultenth]

I just rewatched season 2 again recently, and I I reread a lot of the posts here as well. And I hate to dreg up an old argument, but I'm still really creeped out by the ending and who Hagu chose to go with. All the arguements have been said on both sides it seems, but I just still view from what I took from watching the show that the whole time he was a guardian and father figure to her, not to mention it seemed kind of out the blue because I honestly just thought of the relationship beforehand as an uncle/niece or similarly pure and platonic relationship. And to have that then turn into a romantic relationship is just something I have major problems with, simply because of a precident it sets for people being able to take advantage of and manipulate people in similar circumstances. I'm not saying that is what took place here neccessarily, but it just kinda opens the door that if it's okay for them, then where do you draw the line? Is it okay for someone to take in a child as a baby, raise them as their own child, then later marry them?

I guess the idea of raising your future bride just seems really f'd up to me, and I'm really kinda bummed the mangaka felt the need to throw this twist in and (to me) corrupt and stain what was otherwise a very powerful and poignent story about love and relationships. If anything I'm more upset about it because I liked the first season and most of the 2nd season so much, that to see it end like this is just even more jarring to me. I still like the show, but if anything the ending to me seems almost like a "bad end" similar to where a character dies or something else horrible happen. Which I guess has it's own charm, but to me it takes away from the whole unrequited love and moving on nature of the ending, because I can't really pay full attention to that because I'm so disturbed by the choice of who Hagu gets with in the end.

[louiscaptcha]

While there was discussion about this a long time ago, it was never really concluded. I'm talking about the identities of the silhouettes in the ED. I was hoping the last episode would reveal the silhouettes, but it did not happen.

From first to last, left to right, I think it is:
Hagu
Takemoto
Morita
Kaoru
Mayama
Rika
Yamada
Nomiya
Takemoto (different view)
Shuuji

What do you guys think?

[Cherrysaurus]

I agree with Ultenth- I was also shocked by the ending involving the "love" of Shuuji. At first glance, I thought he just meant "Yeah, I love her (as a daughter/sister) and I'd give anything up for her." But after a bit, all the blushing and everything just made it creepy. I wish I had a better vocabulary but creepy is all I can think of. I understand that maybe the author was trying to portray the whole " Hagu chooses _______" but couldn't the author just made Hagu choose Shuuji for the love of art? And that would be it? The whole Shuuji crush still confuses me to this day.

Another thing, I've also found myself at the problem where I can't find an anime that can meet up with the standards of Honey and Clover. They're just no match!

[Theowne]

Don't worry, we all know exactly how you feel.

Maybe I should just be grateful that I watched the series while it was airing and so got to participate in discussions as they happened. Which is always more satisfying then reading old discussions three years later

[Noe]

I love this show.

[mit7059]

Upon rewatching this show and rereading some of my old comments I stand by everything I said two years ago, especially that I f***ing hate Hagu. On an related note does anyone know where if this sweatshirt that Takemoto wears actually exists? I want it.

[Ultenth]

I totally understand what you mean about hating her. I think it's hard for some people to do simply because she's such a "cute" and "adorable" character. It's like hating a cute puppy that pukes up on the floor or something. But I say that if her actions were done by any other character type, a lot more people would have really really disliked her. Really her only redeeming value is that she's a good artist, she fails on pretty much every other level as a human being, if you really look at it objectively. Her talent and her "cute" factor are pretty much all she has going for her, take away one or the other and her actions and personality would otherwise make her quite a crappy character in most people's eyes (in some people's eyes they still do regardless).

And her ending up with her "uncle" is still really creepy to me, and I don't see how anyone could think differently (unless you think incest is hot or something...)

[gaguri]

And her ending up with her "uncle" is still really creepy to me, and I don't see how anyone could think differently (unless you think incest is hot or something...)

And anyone who didn't find Brokeback Mountain creepy must think homosexual relationships are hot mirite? God I love generalisations.

[Ultenth]

Bad comparison. I didn't say the whole show was creepy, just who she ended up with in the end. And a romantic relationship started when both are consenting adults is completely different than one where their interaction starts with one as an adult caretaker and the other the child being cared for.

[gaguri]

Starts off as caretaker/being cared for -> consenting incest love between adults -> don't find it creepy, you must find it hot

Starts off as partners in some farm -> consenting gay love between adults -> don't find it creepy, you must find it hot

[Ultenth]

The incest being hot thing was a joke, it wasn't meant to be taken literally, but I guess if that's the only thing you saw out of my entire post then there really isn't any point discussing things with you.

To me, I'm more insulted byproxy for many of my homosexual friends that you would equate choosing to allowing yourself to take part in an incestual relationship, especially one where you are a parental figure, with being homosexual. It's quite degrading to homosexuals, and perhaps you should rethink the analogy before you really offend someone.

[gaguri]

I am not equating incest with homosexuality in that context although I understand why you'd see it that way. I don't care if people think incest is right or wrong because frankly that's their perspectives. My problem is with people thinking that if one finds a taboo depicted in fiction ok, then one must find it ok irl. I think it's wrong in lot of ways for a girl to have a relationship with her parental figure but that doesn't mean people can't find such a relationship depicted in honest way beautiful.

So ultimately it's me overreacting to your humourless joke, but I still find this issue prevalent in viewers' approach to taboos in films (more in live action than anime). Having your viewpoint on the subject of taboo is one thing, being able to appreciate their relationship is another for some people (obviously it sounds like it mattered to you, which is fine). I just don't see why some people thinks one has to approve of something to appreciate it.

[Ultenth]

I guess when it comes to things such as that it has partially to do with how closely you hold your morals and values. If they are fluid to you and change quickly or easily, then most likely seeing something against your morals won't bother you as much in a fiction form. But if you are the type to hold to your values strongly and not change them easily and without tons of internal/external debate, then most likely seeing something that runs counter to them will impact you strongly.

So yeah, I see your point, and even though I meant it more as a jab and joke than sincerely, I can see how someone can watch the choice she makes and possibly not have it ruin the ending for them. I'm not saying one way of living life is superior in regards to morals, and in the end a balanced way of viewing your morals is best, and something I strive towards, as being too firm and unyielding can make you unable to sympathize and connect with others and can be just as damaging as being too easily changed and influenced in regards to them.

On a personal level in regards to this specific issue though, I've actually thought long about and had several long conversations with friends in regards to various kinds of incest (step-siblings, blood-siblings, distant relatives, parent-child, guardian-child, etc.) and as such I hold my beliefs on the subject fairly firm in the general direction of seeing why the negative aspects (in regards mostly to biological damage, genetic diversity, and possible manipulation/abuse scenarios) vastly outweigh any kind of reasoning countering why it is illegal almost everywhere in the world.

[Kirarakim]

I admit I was not a big fan of the Shuu/Hagu ending because I liked Morita/Hagu but over time I was able to maybe come to accept it a little more. There are a couple things to consider

1) When Hagu moved in with Shuu she was already 18 thus a legal adult in Japan. Thus technically Shuu was not really her guardian but just a family member she moved in with. Yes she knew him when she was younger but he did not raise her.

2) Hagu and Mayama are close in age and Shuu and Rika are close in age. I think I don't need to explain this further.

3) The reason we probably see Shuu more as a parental figure then just a close relative to Hagu is because Hagu acts and looks like a young child. Also we know that Shuu supported Hagu. But over the course of the series there is a lot that separated Hagu for me from an actual child. One of the major things is Hagu's own understanding of her limitations to function normally in society.

Now don't get me wrong I do think Hagu did grow over the course of the series. And she was not as socially awkward as she was in the early episodes. She was able to make and maintain close friendships. However at the end of the series Hagu still knows she is different and this is why she chose Shuu because she knew he was the best person to take care of her. Hagu realized she could be selfish with Shuu in ways she could not be with Takemoto and Morita. Basically she felt the safest with him.

We find out that Shuu has romantic feelings for Hagu but are these really any more wrong then Takemoto's or Morita's romantic feelings for her? Once again Shuu was not the person who raised Hagu. She was already 18 when she moved in with him. No matter who Hagu ended up with she would still have psychological issues. And I think Shuu made it very clear that he would not take advantage of Hagu that way.

Finally I would also argue that although the series ended with Hagu staying with Shuu there is still a chance that she will grow more and be able to go out on her own and end up with Morita. I really do believe that Hagu had romantic feelings for Morita but until she can function by herself she can not be with Morita (although after all Shuu has done for her I am not sure if Hagu will ever leave him). Although once Hagu recovers from her accident and is able to do art again she did say she wants Morita and her to share their art.

edit: I don't think distant relatives is illegal in most places. Shuu is Hagu's father's cousin so they are pretty distant actually and I am pretty sure that relationship would be legal in most places.

[Ultenth]

2nd cousins is actually legal in a decent amount of places, unlike full first cousins. And maybe it's been a while since I watched it, or I wasn't paying attention, but I'm sure I recall a few flashbacks where it was shown how they were years ago, and even then Shuu seemed very much like a caretaker to her, in place of her absent father. To me the combination of him seeming to be a father figure from a fairly young age, as well as being a 2nd cousin (too closely related for me personally, though I wouldn't necesarily hold it against others) and also having a teacher/student relationship with her, it still seems "wrong" in many ways that she chose to be with him in the end, and that he developed romantic feelings for her.

Also, part of my shock came from the fact that it seemed completely out of the blue that they had romantic feelings. Up until that point their relationship seemed almost ideally pure and familial, not romantic at all. She nor he never (to my reckoning) showed any romantic feelings towards each other, especially when compared to the ones Takemoto and Morita showed towards her, and the somewhat awkward by existant ones she showed towards Morita. To suddenly find that they have supposedly romantic feelings towards each other was extremely bizarre to me, as it hadn't really been set up by the actual story at all, and seemed like just a cheap attempt to have an unexpected "twist" at the end.

As someone who views life as a collection of memories and experiences, it also seems unfortunate to me that Hagu will now never be able to truely be "in love", and will perhaps forever miss out on that amazing life experience, which seems especially unfortunate for someone pursuing the arts. And by being "in love" I mean all the often awkward and stupid and silly and emotional feelings that come with falling in love with someone romantically, as I view her choice of Shuu as mostly just out of comfort, cowardice and cold logic. If there is more to their "love" than that, it certainly wasn't shown in a way that I (the viewer) could see it.

[Kirarakim]

2nd cousins is actually legal in a decent amount of places, unlike full first cousins. And maybe it's been a while since I watched it, or I wasn't paying attention, but I'm sure I recall a few flashbacks where it was shown how they were years ago, and even then Shuu seemed very much like a caretaker to her, in place of her absent father. To me the combination of him seeming to be a father figure from a fairly young age, as well as being a 2nd cousin (too closely related for me personally, though I wouldn't necesarily hold it against others) and also having a teacher/student relationship with her, it still seems "wrong" in many ways that she chose to be with him in the end, and that he developed romantic feelings for her.

There was one flashback if I recall when Shuu told Hagu to come to his school in Tokyo. Hagu must have been in her last year of High School at that point. She was raised by her very strict grandmother. Shuu lived in Tokyo so he obviously did not raise her.

Also, part of my shock came from the fact that it seemed completely out of the blue that they had romantic feelings. Up until that point their relationship seemed almost ideally pure and familial, not romantic at all. She nor he never (to my reckoning) showed any romantic feelings towards each other, especially when compared to the ones Takemoto and Morita showed towards her, and the somewhat awkward by existant ones she showed towards Morita. To suddenly find that they have supposedly romantic feelings towards each other was extremely bizarre to me, as it hadn't really been set up by the actual story at all, and seemed like just a cheap attempt to have an unexpected "twist" at the end.

I admit it did sort of come out of left field but for one thing this is only Shuu's feelings we are talking about. I don't think Hagu showed she had romantic feelings for Shuu just that he was a very important person to her. Although at the same time Shuu made it clear that he will not act on those "romantic" feelings. In the end Hagu is probably the most important person to Shuu and he is devoted to her but it doesn't necessarily mean his feelings are sexual in nature. But really people do realize their feelings sometimes suddenly.

And while I do agree it was an unexpected development I don't think it was put in place for shock value. I think the manga-ka was just trying to be realistic. Hagu has psychological issues and she was able to get over some but not all. In real life not all our problems are solved so simply either.

As someone who views life as a collection of memories and experiences, it also seems unfortunate to me that Hagu will now never be able to truely be "in love", and will perhaps forever miss out on that amazing life experience, which seems especially unfortunate for someone pursuing the arts. And by being "in love" I mean all the often awkward and stupid and silly and emotional feelings that come with falling in love with someone romantically, as I view her choice of Shuu as mostly just out of comfort, cowardice and cold logic. If their is more to their "love" than that, it certainly wasn't shown in a way that the viewer could see it.

No one is saying that Hagu will never fall in love. Honey & Clover is a slice of life story and we only saw one part of that slice. None of the character's futures are set in stone. We don't know what the future will bring. Hagu isn't ready to leave Shuu at the moment but maybe she will be ready in the future. Maybe she can be with Morita. Or maybe she will develop romantic feelings for Shuu. Either way Shuu will not pressure her and will let her become strong emotionally and recover from her accident.

I don't think Hagu was being a coward, I think she was being realistic about her current situation.

[aliensporebomb]

Wow, this thread is STILL going on.

I'd love to see the mangaka take up the story ten years after the story we know ends.

I think everyones situation would be completely different just like real life.

But I'm not entirely convinved Hagu and Shuu would remain together - we'll
just have to see if Umino Chika opts to continue the story later.

[gaguri]

Originally Posted by Ultenth

2nd cousins is actually legal in a decent amount of places, unlike full first cousins. And maybe it's been a while since I watched it, or I wasn't paying attention, but I'm sure I recall a few flashbacks where it was shown how they were years ago, and even then Shuu seemed very much like a caretaker to her, in place of her absent father. To me the combination of him seeming to be a father figure from a fairly young age, as well as being a 2nd cousin (too closely related for me personally, though I wouldn't necesarily hold it against others) and also having a teacher/student relationship with her, it still seems "wrong" in many ways that she chose to be with him in the end, and that he developed romantic feelings for her.

Also, part of my shock came from the fact that it seemed completely out of the blue that they had romantic feelings. Up until that point their relationship seemed almost ideally pure and familial, not romantic at all. She nor he never (to my reckoning) showed any romantic feelings towards each other, especially when compared to the ones Takemoto and Morita showed towards her, and the somewhat awkward by existant ones she showed towards Morita. To suddenly find that they have supposedly romantic feelings towards each other was extremely bizarre to me, as it hadn't really been set up by the actual story at all, and seemed like just a cheap attempt to have an unexpected "twist" at the end.

As someone who views life as a collection of memories and experiences, it also seems unfortunate to me that Hagu will now never be able to truely be "in love", and will perhaps forever miss out on that amazing life experience, which seems especially unfortunate for someone pursuing the arts. And by being "in love" I mean all the often awkward and stupid and silly and emotional feelings that come with falling in love with someone romantically, as I view her choice of Shuu as mostly just out of comfort, cowardice and cold logic. If there is more to their "love" than that, it certainly wasn't shown in a way that I (the viewer) could see it.

It wasn't sudden for me, maybe because his "all-in" attitude reminded me of an old man x 16 years old relationship in a movie called Bow. This trailer should speak for itself of its similarities. It may seem creepy but sometimes the most pure and wholesome form of love is when that one person means the whole world to him.

And I don't know why people keep judging the ending as THE END in movies. This is not some hollywood movie designed to make the audience feel that the heroes will marry and live happily everafter. Life goes on and it's foolish to narrow down a ocean of possibilities into such a simple and small hole.

[musouka]

I don't really understand why people assume that if she can't run off with Morita, then she will forever be missing out on love and be doomed to a terrible, unhappy life.

People change. Perhaps she'll find someone else to love who isn't either Shuu or Morita. The point is that Hagu made the choice that would allow her to continue what was most important to her at the time. Running away with Morita might have sounded romantic, but they were only in love in the most "broad" sense of the term. They didn't have much personal interaction, and I can't even begin to imagine the two of them having a "future" together, considering how irresponsible and inwardly directed both of them are.