Let's Re-Watch Macross Frontier (TV) Together!

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by karice67

Compare the Sheryl there to the Sheryl just after she found out that Alto hadn't died (when he asked her once again to sing). To me, it's a significant change in attitude, considering she expected right from the start that she wouldn't survive the battle.

Actually, that scene itself shows how fatigued she is. Think back to episodes 18-20 - she's collapsed several times before, and that was simply from everyday exertions. In episodes 24-25, she's been singing almost continuously since the battle started. She's both physically and mentally exhausted.

I can see that the writers were trying to create some sense of symmetry with that scene, but their situations are completely disparate to begin with.

Originally Posted by karice67

And I agree - I'd probably have slapped her too, if I were in the same situation. Though a follow up hug or something would have been nice.

Perhaps. But would you be able to go through the same trials Sheryl went through and yet still accept that same slap, well meaning or no, with such grace? Most of us aren't quite so perfect, so try to forgive those among us who feel a hint of outrage on her behalf.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Perhaps. But would you be able to go through the same trials Sheryl went through and yet still accept that same slap, well meaning or no, with such grace? Most of us aren't quite so perfect, so try to forgive those among us who feel a hint of outrage on her behalf.

Speaking from my perspective, yes. Because it would remind me to not give up. And as long as you are able to talk, you can "fight".

[Thess]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

The point also still stands slapping someone who is going to die, and knows it doesn't help matters. You're not slapping any sense into them, because let's be serious here, how can you talk someone out of dying from a terminal illness of which there is no cure (as far as they know)? The scene was just badly handled. It doesn't change that they are dying, and will still be dying from said illness even after you slap them. It just makes you like a total idiot to the people around you.

I agree the scene was idiotic, but I didn't think it was mean to cast Ranka in a bad light. I was pretty sure that they were trying to show Ranka "grow up" and mimicking Sheryl (lol, was I right?). But ehh, the problem is that... it was badly timed and portrayed after how they established Sheryl's fainting spells during all the previous episodes. I pegged it as simply another weakness in the writing (when it comes to TV!Ranka there are plenty).

Mostly we shouldn't blame Ranka, but criticize Kawamori, Yoshino, etc who believed this was a good idea to make her appear 'mature'. It was jarring in general. Be thankful the second movie ditched all the hilarious resonating moving viruses thing too.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Thess

I agree the scene was idiotic, but I didn't think it was mean to cast Ranka in a bad light. I was pretty sure that they were trying to show Ranka "grow up" and mimicking Sheryl (lol, was I right?). But ehh, the problem is that... it was badly timed and portrayed after how they established Sheryl's fainting spells during all the previous episodes. I pegged it as simply another weakness in the writing (when it comes to TV!Ranka there are plenty).

Mostly we shouldn't blame Ranka, but criticize Kawamori, Yoshino, etc who believed this was a good idea to make her appear 'mature'. It was jarring in general. Be thankful the second movie ditched all the hilarious resonating moving viruses thing too.

Oh I don't blame the character I blame Kawamori and Yoshino, because Ranka's tv counterpart was just handled horribly, and they're the ones who wrote her. Its pretty obvious that they were trying to make Ranka appear as though she had grown up, but its negated by previously established facts. I know that Kawamori and Yoshino were going for symmetry but it only worked on the superficial level, when you look at the series as a whole it just didn't work. You'd have to forget the established facts of the previous episodes in order for you accept it.

Its one of the problems with the last episode, in that it feels like it belongs to another series. The series went from brutal to happy-go-lucky and idealistic in just one episode.

Its because of this why I prefer the movies over the tv series, its just better in storytelling overall.

In fact the fans not seeing the other non-romantic triangles can ultimately attributed to Kawamori and Yoshino, not giving any attention to them.

[karice67]

@wisteria

Sheryl had accepted she was dying by the dressing room scene in 24 - she'd planned to burn herself out singing for Frostier. But I agree with FH in that she gave up before she had to. I'm not a medical expert, but mental attitude is important.

Re: 20 vs 25
That's why I don't compare the two situations - vastly different emotions were involved. And I'm not arguing that the scene couldn't have been better written - I've already said that Ranka should have followed up better.

Alternatively, the best option might have been Sheryl not giving up at all...

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Speaking from my perspective, yes. Because it would remind me to not give up. And as long as you are able to talk, you can "fight".

Yeah, that's why I'm a bit more forgiving of the slap.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Perhaps. But would you be able to go through the same trials Sheryl went through and yet still accept that same slap, well meaning or no, with such grace? Most of us aren't quite so perfect, so try to forgive those among us who feel a hint of outrage on her behalf.

But of course. I won't join you, though I agree with Endou Aya that the slap/'idiot!' combo was a bit extreme, but do carry on

=====

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, come on. Although it might have developed into something more if Ranka hadn't barged into the situation, Alto actually was just giving Sheryl some much needed moral support. Ranka broke her own heart, through bad interpretation of the situation on every level.

Oh, I actually agree with Nakamura in that nothing would have happened thereafter (much as I'd personally have liked it to), and I agree that Ranka broke her own heart, but that doesn't absolve Alto from what he did: i.e.

how he ignored Ranka's feelings ,which Michel had emphatically pointed out just minutes before, to ask her to sing. It was the right thing to do wrt protecting the fleet, and it showed how much more important the fleet was to him than Ranka was. But it still doesn't cancel that fact that he didn't even stop to consider why she was upset, much less do anything about it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite fond of Alto - more so after this rewatch - but, where appropriate, I'll call him for being emotionally dense.

=====

Originally Posted by wisteria233

In fact the fans not seeing the other non-romantic triangles can ultimately attributed to Kawamori and Yoshino, not giving any attention to them.

The important point there wasn't actually the non-romantic triangles, but rather than everyone uses the 'supergalactic love story' catchphrase to interpret everything.

====

And Yay! Nanase watch is back for the last episode! Though...it's sad that it's just one scene...

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

@wisteria

Sheryl had accepted she was dying by the dressing room scene in 24 - she'd planned to burn herself out singing for Frostier. But I agree with FH in that she gave up before she had to. I'm not a medical expert, but mental attitude is important.

Re: 20 vs 25
That's why I don't compare the two situations - vastly different emotions were involved. And I'm not arguing that the scene couldn't have been better written - I've already said that Ranka should have followed up better.

Alternatively, the best option might have been Sheryl not giving up at all...

But then you have to consider why is Sheryl not fighting. Because its something that can't fight, and has been told plenty of times would be useless, anyway, and knows that its already useless due to her diminishing physical strength.

You can't just someone can easily fight death, because that's simply not true. At this point in time Sheryl was told that she had only months to live, Sheryl herself knows that she's on her death bed. We've seen Sheryl faint plenty of times after getting herself worked up emotionally and physically, which she did in the previous episode when Alto seemingly died. And she shown to be especially tired before she sang Northern Cross (she was panting when Alto told her sing).

Remember Sheryl never got any chance to rest. So all of those events in the previous episode are just adding up. I remember back when this happened to someone I know but being emotionally distressed worsens your condition and saps your strength more, and being emotionally distressed while being physically active just makes it infinitely worse, and doing those things at the same time without any rest, is just unthinkable. Trust me the fact that Sheryl was even able to sing Northern Cross after she though that Alto was dead itself is really amazing.

Now if Ranka had explained that she could heal Sheryl and Sheryl refused the help then the slap would have a purpose but at this point it makes no sense.

Yeah, that's why I'm a bit more forgiving of the slap.

The important point there wasn't actually the non-romantic triangles, but rather than everyone uses the 'supergalactic love story' catchphrase to interpret everything.

Well its not just that Casual anime watchers thought that the love triangle was all there was to this series as well. And if that how it appears to them, and that's not how it was supposed to seem, then the writers did something wrong.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by karice67

The important point there wasn't actually the non-romantic triangles, but rather than everyone uses the 'supergalactic love story' catchphrase to interpret everything.

To be fair, Kawamori's a little dense himself if he expects fans not to interpret it that way with all the triangle symbolism in the series (... even in the freakin' openings).

It's interesting that is "supergalatic love story" and not "supergalatic love triangle."

[karice67]

@wisteria

I'll leave the issue of "giving up" and the slap, because we won't agree on that.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Well its not just that Casual anime watchers thought that the love triangle was all there was to this series as well. And if that how it appears to them, and that's not how it was supposed to seem, then the writers did something wrong.

Originally Posted by Thess

To be fair, Kawamori's a little dense himself if he expects fans not to interpret it that way with all the triangle symbolism in the series (... even in the freakin' openings).

If you know whose comments to look for, you'll find that a couple of members on AS actually realised that it wasn't all about the 'love triangle'. Interview and setting material that was distributed throughout the series and shortly after it ended also tries to shift focus to other issues, although the magazines (and Qs from fans) generally continued to focus on the love triangle itself.

====

So, a challenge to you and everyone who's been focused just on the 'love triangle'. (And believe me, I was in that boat too, until about 5 weeks ago...)

Take the controversial scene in 22 and try considering the wider context within which it takes place. Incidentally, Nakamura Yuuichi was 'bashed' by the cast after that scene, even by Endou Aya (who has made it very clear that she would have liked to see more AxS). My question is: what interpretation did they come to that made them 'bash/grill' Nakamura and Alto for that?

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

@wisteria

I'll leave the issue of "giving up" and the slap, because we won't agree on that.

If you know whose comments to look for, you'll find that a couple of members on AS actually realised that it wasn't all about the 'love triangle'. Interview and setting material that was distributed throughout the series and shortly after it ended also tries to shift focus to other issues, although the magazines (and Qs from fans) generally continued to focus on the love triangle itself.

Well kudos to them for finding that out, but on average most of the people who watched MF didn't see anything else but the love triangle, and why shouldn't they? It was beaten over our heads every other episode.

====

So, a challenge to you and everyone who's been focused just on the 'love triangle'. (And believe me, I was in that boat too, until about 5 weeks ago...)

Take the controversial scene in 22 and try considering the wider context within which it takes place. Incidentally, Nakamura Yuuichi was 'bashed' by the cast after that scene, even by Endou Aya (who has made it very clear that she would have liked to see more AxS). My question is: what interpretation did they come to that made them 'bash/grill' Nakamura and Alto for that?

Don't really know, maybe they were just asking for the meaning behind what he was talking about. Considering that I realized that what he was saying wasn't of romantic nature from my first viewing anyway.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by karice67

@wisteriaIf you know whose comments to look for, you'll find that a couple of members on AS actually realised that it wasn't all about the 'love triangle'. Interview and setting material that was distributed throughout the series and shortly after it ended also tries to shift focus to other issues, although the magazines (and Qs from fans) generally continued to focus on the love triangle itself.

The problem is the shoddy way to display it. You realize the first opening is called triangular and the second opening has triangles, triangles everywhere! This is no Macross Zero, Seven or Plus. They purposefully promoted the idea of love triangles (or rather: that was shoved down our throats). They could have changed the openings and endings into non romantic ones... did they? Nope.

If they belittle their fans for actually assuming what they encouraged is frankly ridiculous. And this is coming for someone who thought the "love triangle" was a joke.

I know what you mean, but I think they are as dense as Alto if they didn't see this coming.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

It was beaten over our heads every other episode.

The triangular relationship, sure, but was it necessarily about love?

====

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Considering that I realized that what he was saying wasn't of romantic nature from my first viewing anyway.

If you didn't think it was romantic, then you might not gain so much from thinking about the question I posed.

=====

Originally Posted by Thess

The problem is the shoddy way to display it. You realize the first opening is called triangular and the second opening has triangles, triangles everywhere! This is no Macross Zero, Seven or Plus. They purposefully promoted the idea of love triangles (or rather: that was shoved down our throats). They could have changed the openings and endings into non romantic ones... did they? Nope.

If I might speak in Kawamori's defense, he was pretty shocked at the lyrics for "Triangular" himself.

But the other thing is, songs like Diamond Crevasse don't necessarily have to be considered romantic, do they?

Originally Posted by Thess

I know what you mean, but I think they are as dense as Alto if they didn't see this coming.

Yoshino does say in one interview that he was prepared for the fallout.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

The triangular relationship, sure, but was it necessarily about love?

Maybe not on Alto and Sheryl's end but it was definately so on Ranka's end. And since she recieved so much screen time...

====

If you didn't think it was romantic, then you might not gain so much from thinking about the question I posed.

It was pretty obvious that it wasn't romantic considering their subject matter, and conversation. The only way anyone would think that conversation was romantic was if they took the words out of context.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Maybe not on Alto and Sheryl's end but it was definately so on Ranka's end. And since she recieved so much screen time...

Funny you bring her up, because Ranka's "it hurts" doesn't actually refer to the 'love' thing either, but I seem to remember everyone here discussing it solely in that context a few weeks ago...

====

Originally Posted by wisteria233

It was pretty obvious that it wasn't romantic considering their subject matter, and conversation. The only way anyone would think that conversation was romantic was if they took the words out of context.

I'm not really talking about the words, but about what might or might not have happened afterwards, and, given the whole context, what that means for Alto's relationship with Sheryl (romantic or otherwise).

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

Funny you bring her up, because Ranka's "it hurts" doesn't actually refer to the 'love' thing either, but I seem to remember everyone here discussing it solely in that context a few weeks ago...

But if that's true then they did a bad job of portraying that. Ranka never seemed to ever think of Alto as a friend but only as a love interest (she got a crush on him the moment she met him). Even if you put the scene in context it still has problems. Just like with everything else in this series in regards to the love triangle. When making a series you do need to show some things implications can only take you so far.

Though I think people ended up thinking that Ranka thought "It hurts" and "I want to die" because of what just happened and her reaction to it, which actually seemed to bring out more of a reaction from her than the vajra, and their attack on Frontier.
====

I'm not really talking about the words, but about what might or might not have happened afterwards, and, given the whole context, what that means for Alto's relationship with Sheryl (romantic or otherwise).

I don't understand what you're saying here.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

But if that's true then they did a bad job of portraying that. Ranka never seemed to ever think of Alto as a friend but only as a love interest (she got a crush on him the moment she met him). Even if you put the scene in context it still has problems. Just like with everything else in this series in regards to the love triangle. When making a series you do need to show some things implications can only take you so far.

Though I think people ended up thinking that Ranka thought "It hurts" and "I want to die" because of what just happened and her reaction to it, which actually seemed to bring out more of a reaction from her than the vajra, and their attack on Frontier.

As others have said before, it all comes down to interpretation. I can't say more, because I wasn't actually interested in analysing Ranka this time around - might get round to it on my next rewatch, whenever that turns out to be.

====

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Last tip for now (I'd like to see if others can get at it before I say any more): it's a war situation.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

Last tip for now (I'd like to see if others can get at it before I say any more): it's a war situation.

Oh that's what you meant, from the way you worded it seemed as though you were talking about something else.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by karice67

Take the controversial scene in 22 and try considering the wider context within which it takes place. Incidentally, Nakamura Yuuichi was 'bashed' by the cast after that scene, even by Endou Aya (who has made it very clear that she would have liked to see more AxS). My question is: what interpretation did they come to that made them 'bash/grill' Nakamura and Alto for that?

Controversial scene in Episode 22? Are you sure you put down the right episode number there? Actually if you could just clarify exactly which scene you mean that would help -I want to be sure I'm thinking of the right one.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Controversial scene in Episode 22? Are you sure you put down the right episode number there? Actually if you could just clarify exactly which scene you mean that would help -I want to be sure I'm thinking of the right one.

It's the 'did they do it or not?' issue.

edit: Though I should probably emphasize that it's NOT the yes/no answer itself that concerns me (that's been debated far too much), but rather the wider implications for characterization and whatnot.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

Oh, I actually agree with Nakamura in that nothing would have happened thereafter (much as I'd personally have liked it to), and I agree that Ranka broke her own heart, but that doesn't absolve Alto from what he did: i.e. Don't get me wrong, I'm quite fond of Alto - more so after this rewatch - but, where appropriate, I'll call him for being emotionally dense.

You'll have to tell me how else he could have reacted, then. Faking that, no, he really loved Ranka, to get her heart "unbroken"? Telling her that it's okay if she doesn't sing, when Frontier gets burned down around them?

Originally Posted by karice67

It's the 'did they do it or not?' issue.

edit: Though I should probably emphasize that it's NOT the yes/no answer itself that concerns me (that's been debated far too much), but rather the wider implications for characterization and whatnot.

My guess is then that your question is if this scene meant that Alto was just "pitying" Sheryl and therefore giving his promise to stay at her side.

Well, I say "no, he really did love her.". I think acquiring the knowledge of Sheryl's sickness allowed Alto to break the dam he had built up on his emotions as to not hurt Ranka ( that Ranka was gone also helped, I am sure ). So I think that this was the moment when he pledged himself full-hearted to Sheryl. That he was shown later to feel regretful ( when Sheryl asks him to stay with her forever in ep 23 ) is because he knows quite well that they will not be able to do so. As to him not saying that he loved her... who was it who said that saying something like this openly is seen as inappropiate by well-off Japanese?

In any case, I think the conversation really was romantic and Alto went all-out for Sheryl here. Sheryl herself couldn't believe it, though, and it is because she had already convinced herself that he'd be only with her out of pity. It took the conversation in episode 24 to show her otherwise.

[Thess]

^
I don't know if Sheryl only thought about the "pity" thing. Sheryl fully gave up her future because she was dying (and probably didn't want to burden Alto's future). She wanted to go with a "bang". Even if Alto loved her, it was over before it began. She had bigger concerns (like the war and also saving Ranka's life...). They were already "playing" lovers (Sheryl's words), so it would be the circumstances surrounding them that forced her to end it (to Alto's protests).

As difference, Ranka gave up because she thought Alto didn't love her and (maybe) she realized that she had bigger concerns than him after all. Like the Vajra.

Is this what you mean, karice?