Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

No, my original statement merely mentioned that Alto felt obligated to comply with Ranka's situation. It said nothing of him venting his frustration.

- Tak

And your impression that he felt obligated is based on what? His dialogue? His actions? Your feelings? WHAT?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And your impression that he felt obligated is based on what? His dialogue? His actions? Your feelings? WHAT?

That has nothing to do with Alto venting his frustration, does it? But what did he tell Ozma when he applied for membership with the SMS?

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

What did he tell Ozma when he applied for membership with the SMS?

- Tak

"Hey! Let me... Let me pilot a Valkyrie!"

Or are you talking about "I want to know the whole truth. I'm sick of leaving my destiny in the hands of others! Tell me who they are. What are the Vajra!?"

Or maybe "That's fine. I will live by myself. And die by myself."

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

That has nothing to do with Alto venting his frustration, does it?

- Tak

Allow me to recap. You said he felt OBLIGATED to listen to Ranka's prattle.

I asked where he ever expressed that (also known as "venting").

You said he was too much of a nice guy (i.e. he didn't "vent").

You still haven't shown anyplace where he showed anything other than affection for Ranka.

Magnus did, but that was MUCH later in the series, and over a different reason...

...which you claimed was your reason.

Listening to someone talk incessantly about themselves is different from wanting to kill them because you think they're aiding the enemy.

At least, I think it is.

Am I wrong...? Please let me know.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

"Hey! Let me... Let me pilot a Valkyrie!"

Oh, we all know how well that went. Hell, Alto's ass is still burning after pulling Ozma's size 13 boot out, especially since the latter didn't even have the courtesy to provide lubricants.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Allow me to recap. You said he felt OBLIGATED to listen to Ranka's prattle.

I asked where he ever expressed that (also known as "venting").

You said he was too much of a nice guy (i.e. he didn't "vent").

Since when did the feeling of obligation have to include venting as a bonus?

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

You still haven't shown anyplace where he showed anything other than affection for Ranka.

Oh I have. I mentioned Ranka was the ticket that got Alto into SMS in the first place, and that Alto made a promise to Ozma about caring for his little sister. However, I don't see a budding romance there.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Oh, we all know how well that went. Hell, Alto's ass is still burning after pulling Ozma's size 13 boot out, especially since the latter didn't even have the courtesy to provide lubricants.

Heh. True. POW! Right in the kisser.

Originally Posted by Tak

Since when did the feeling of obligation have to include venting as a bonus?

Umm...Okay. Somehow, I think we're talking past each other here. So let me ask it plainly: Do you think Alto feels any frustration, or irritation in talking to Ranka...? 'Cause if your answer is "no," then we agree.

Originally Posted by Tak

Oh I have. I mentioned Ranka was the ticket that got Alto into SMS in the first place, and that Alto made a promise to Ozma about caring for his little sister. However, I don't see a budding romance there.

You'll have to refresh my memory. When did I say anything about a budding romance...?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Umm...Okay. Somehow, I think we're talking past each other here. So let me ask it plainly: Do you think Alto feels any frustration, or irritation in talking to Ranka...? 'Cause if your answer is "no," then we agree.

I am going to have the courtesy of making this simple. So my answer is no.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

You'll have to refresh my memory. When did I say anything about a budding romance...?

Well, you did say:

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

You still haven't shown anyplace where he showed anything other than affection for Ranka.

Unless the affection in question is not the 'romantic' kind.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

I am going to have the courtesy of making this simple. So my answer is no.

Then please allow me to make this clear...do you agree with this statement: "I, Tak, got annoyed by Ranka's self-centered prattle, but nowhere in the series or movies did Alto show that he was similarly annoyed, or annoyed in any way"?

Originally Posted by Tak

Unless the affection in question is not the 'romantic' kind.

- Tak

Let me put it this way...if you tell a girl, "I love you," and she replies, "I feel affection for you," would you be happy, or sad?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Then please allow me to make this clear...do you agree with this statement: "I, Tak, got annoyed by Ranka's self-centered prattle, but nowhere in the series or movies did Alto show that he was similarly annoyed, or annoyed in any way"?

Urm, I never claimed Alto was annoyed with Ranka's prattle in the 1st place.

I don't see why you are pushing this.

- Tak

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Hmm. Then where would you place a rockstar-turned-pilot? Or an officer-turned-lyricist? Is culture something that we fight to protect, or is culture a weapon used to wage war?

Basara explicitly states he is a civilian, he is not a combat pilot. Misa translates the protoculture song, not an act of creating culture but preserving it. In Macross culture, specifically civic society and all it creates, is something to protect. But the creaters never loose sight of the fact that culture has created the military in the first place. As soon as military takes over things go wrong, whether in Macross or in Japanese history. Imo part of the anti-war message ingraned in the show.

Originally Posted by Tak

While Ranka was all over princess, Sheryl was kind enough to permit Alto in retaining some of his otherwise tattered individuality

Every situation involving Ranka left Alto little to no room for self-expression while the former jammed her childish hopes & desires into Alto's head without a care in the world.

I was trying to contrast SDFM's romance to Frontiers. In SDFM Hikaru military carreer made it hard for him to be with Minmay while it helped him to be with Misa.

In Frontier joining the SMS has no such inpact on Alto. Nor did the fact that Sheryl and Ranka are both celebrities make it harder for Alto to date one of the girls either. Alto simply had to chose the person he liked best, and since both girls got along fine there wasn't really a reason for Alto to change the status quo. Hikaru had to make a choice as Misa was leaving on the Megaroad mission. (He couldn't know at the time that Minmay would join as a colonist in FB2012.)

Originally Posted by Tak

The moment Alto made the choice to stay behind for Sheryl (followed by the deed) and the moment Ranka issued a challenge to Sheryl was self-explanatory enough. For me, anyway. It was not necessary for the show to proclaim the winner out loud.

There is little to suggest that this descision comes from romantic feelings by Alto. Ranka goes on a mission Alto disagrees with (the moment he truely fails as a Macross character) and she is escorted by a superior pilot so there is no need for a chivalrous knight act. He stays to protect Frontier and it's civilians including a terminally ill Sheryl. Like much of the triangle it's all made as ambigious as possible.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Bri

There is little to suggest that this descision comes from romantic feelings by Alto. Ranka goes on a mission Alto disagrees with (the moment he truely fails as a Macross character) and she is escorted by a superior pilot so there is no need for a chivalrous knight act. He stays to protect Frontier and it's civilians including a terminally ill Sheryl. Like much of the triangle it's all made as ambigious as possible.

I wouldn't say that Alto fails as a character for failing to have the desire to follow Ranka into the endless unknown, while his home was standing on its last leg, that's about ready to give out on it. Especially the day after his best friend's death, by the same species that the girl who he promised to protect is right behind her. Plus there isn't much that is ambiguous in portraying affection in episode 23.

If anything Ranka was in dire need of tact during that scene.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Bri

There is little to suggest that this descision comes from romantic feelings by Alto. Ranka goes on a mission Alto disagrees with (the moment he truely fails as a Macross character) and she is escorted by a superior pilot so there is no need for a chivalrous knight act. He stays to protect Frontier and it's civilians including a terminally ill Sheryl. Like much of the triangle it's all made as ambigious as possible.

Then here is where we disagree. IMO, if Alto had any romantic feeligns for Ranka, any yearnings for her at all, then he would have followed them either to act as a chivalrous knight, or to bring Ranka home. It doesn't help that Alto greatly mistrusts Brerea.

I also don't see why Alto failed as a character by making a different decision than Ranka. The latter was never Alto's responsibility to begin with.

- Tak

[Bri]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I wouldn't say that Alto fails as a character for failing to have the desire to follow Ranka into the endless unknown, while his home was standing on its last leg, that's about ready to give out on it. Especially the day after his best friend's death, by the same species that the girl who he promised to protect is right behind her. Plus there isn't much that is ambiguous in portraying affection in episode 23.

If anything Ranka was in dire need of tact during that scene.

I disagree. It is not about following her. Alto rejects Ranka's point of view of trying to make peace with the Vajira. He wants a fight to the finish with the enemy, even wants to kill an innocent individual. No Macross main character before him gave in to the dark side when here was hope for a peaceful resolution.

Hikaru fully supported Max and Milia and peace talks with the Zentradi, shortly after both Roy and Kakazaki's deaths. Basara kept trying to reach out to the Protodevlin during the war. Shin Kudo discarded his weapons when confronted with the AFOS. Isamu Dyson forgave Gult Bowman for molesting Myung and attemting to kill him. Alto even played in the Birdman movie and yet didn't learn anything from their examples. Brera was fully justified for knocking some sense in to the boy.

[Tak]

Because the solution to the Vajra problem was different than all of the previous encounters humans had with aliens. Even Klan mentioned they were nothing like what have been encountered thus far.

As far as humanity is concerned, the Vajra were as alien as it could ever be, and nobody believed it was possible to communicate with the Vajra. All previous aliens encountered by humanity exhibited human characteristics, the Vajra however, did not.

It did not help that Ranka would not describe to Alto how she was going to communicate with the Vajra. The rest was guesswork on Alto's part.

- Tak

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Bri

I disagree. It is not about following her. Alto rejects Ranka's point of view of trying to make peace with the Vajira. He wants a fight to the finish with the enemy, even wants to kill an innocent individual. No Macross main character before him gave in to the dark side when here was hope for a peaceful resolution.

Hikaru fully supported Max and Milia and peace talks with the Zentradi, shortly after both Roy and Kakazaki's deaths. Basara kept trying to reach out to the Protodevlin during the war. Shin Kudo discarded his weapons when confronted with the AFOS. Isamu Dyson forgave Gult Bowman for molesting Myung and attemting to kill him. Alto even played in the Birdman movie and yet didn't learn anything from their examples. Brera was fully justified for knocking some sense in to the boy.

Again Ranka does this the day after Alto just saw his home being destroyed by the green things and his best friend gutted right before his friends, so Alto not being able to listen to Ranka is a given.

Max and Milia didn't happen the day after Kakazaki's death, and the Zentradi were also able to listen and understand human language so your comparison doesn't make sense.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Again Ranka does this the day after Alto just saw his home being destroyed by the green things and his best friend gutted right before his friends, so Alto not being able to listen to Ranka is a given.

Max and Milia didn't happen the day after Kakazaki's death, and the Zentradi were also able to listen and understand human language so your comparison doesn't make sense.

It's far worse actually, Alto threatens to kill a innocent individual, explicitly stated by Ranka that Aikun was recently hatched and had not partaken in combat. Milia was an enemy ace responsible for killing several valkyrie pilots. So my comparison makes perfect sense tyvm.

Besides, having exibit A floating around who is not attacking and holding a paper aircraft, is a rather big hint that Ranka at least achieved some form of communication. Which undermines the language excuse. Ignoring his friends pleas in a bout of anger just confirms my view of his character flaws. This is my final point on the discussion as it's drifting further away from the original SDFM/Frontier romance comparison.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Bri

It's far worse actually, Alto threatens to kill a innocent individual, explicitly stated by Ranka that Aikun was recently hatched and had not partaken in combat. Milia was an enemy ace responsible for killing several valkyrie pilots. So my comparison makes perfect sense tyvm.

Besides, having exibit A floating around who is not attacking and holding a paper aircraft, is a rather big hint that Ranka at least achieved some form of communication. Which undermines the language excuse. Ignoring his friends pleas in a bout of anger just confirms my view of his character flaws. This is my final point on the discussion as it's drifting further away from the original SDFM/Frontier romance comparison.

Ai-kun wasn't newly hatched, he was newly evolved.

But Alto didn't know any of that, and how could he. He just saw his best friend get gutted in front of his face , and his home being destroyed (for no reason mind you) by the the very same species of bug that is standing before him just a few hours ago. Alto has every right to be emotional during that scene, and Ranka should have had more tact and not brought Ai-kun with her, she should have took his feelings into consideration. The fact that she didn't actually makes her look like she doesn't really care Alto, because if she did she wouldn't have brought the creature that looked just like the same bug that killed his best friend.

Seriously that was the equivalent of bringing the murderer's identical twin brother to meet the the victim's friends and family the day after they witnessed the murderer kill their loved one, right before their eyes.

[Hollowgolem]

Originally Posted by Bri

It's far worse actually, Alto threatens to kill a innocent individual, explicitly stated by Ranka that Aikun was recently hatched and had not partaken in combat. Milia was an enemy ace responsible for killing several valkyrie pilots. So my comparison makes perfect sense tyvm.

So Alto has the personal experience of his time at SMS, the numerous times he'd been attacked by Vajra, and personally witnessing his good friend getting rocked hard by them, and already knows that they act as a hive mind, with a single consciousness... and is supposed to believe that that one is different based only on the word of a naive little girl and her mysterious, douchy guardian? No, I'd say Alto's skepticism is justified.

Besides, having exibit A floating around who is not attacking and holding a paper aircraft, is a rather big hint that Ranka at least achieved some form of communication. Which undermines the language excuse. Ignoring his friends pleas in a bout of anger just confirms my view of his character flaws. This is my final point on the discussion as it's drifting further away from the original SDFM/Frontier romance comparison.

Alto is certainly a different character than Hikaru, that's for sure. Indeed, I'd even say significantly better as a character (as a fictional character) because of the character flaws he exhibits. They make him easier to relate to.

But seeing a confused vajra, temporarily stunned or distracted for who-knows-what-reason, to someone who has been fighting and watching his compatriots die fighting the things, is an opportunity. Perhaps he assumed Ranka wasn't fully understanding the situation, or whatever. Our knowledge, as an audience, is significantly more detailed than Alto's, and it's hardly surprising he reacted the way he did.

Did Hikaru react similarly before he had verified that the Zentradi could be reasoned with? Because I don't seem to remember that.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I'm gonna save space.

Oh, you can do better.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Also, in the fanfic, Sheryl's been given a different past:

And how does your fanfic support your claims and opinions on official canon? Oh yeah, in my fanfic, Ranka was a sinister bitch who intentionally caused the disaster to befall upon Frontier. She was later prosecuted for her crimes, followed by a public trial & execution in addition to an aftermath too horrid to post here, and spicy bits that would deliver you into a state of mental arrest. But I am not going to loose my imagination as a source of support for my interpretation of canon. Especially since I come across as somewhat of a half-decent human being, I will spare you the gruesome details.

Yeah, get a clue, nobody gives a shit about your fanfic in face of what had transpired in the show.

Originally Posted by Hollowgolem

So Alto has the personal experience of his time at SMS, the numerous times he'd been attacked by Vajra, and personally witnessing his good friend getting rocked hard by them, and already knows that they act as a hive mind, with a single consciousness... and is supposed to believe that that one is different based only on the word of a naive little girl and her mysterious, douchy guardian? No, I'd say Alto's skepticism is justified.

Exactly. Max and Milia could end the mistake before adding to it. There was no way to do so with the Vajra. It also did not help when the said naive little girl failed in pacifying the Vajra in front of Alto, and inviting the latter into what was akin to suicide didn't help much.

What was Alto's information about the Vajra. They killed his friend, they ruined the colony, they threatened his life and those who he cared for, and Ranka had not a clue as to how to effectively communicate with them. Then she left, and gave Alto little to no details as to what she was going to do. Can Alto be skeptical to Ranka's behavior at that point? Oh, definitely.

- Tak

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Bri

Basara explicitly states he is a civilian, he is not a combat pilot. Misa translates the protoculture song, not an act of creating culture but preserving it. In Macross culture, specifically civic society and all it creates, is something to protect. But the creaters never loose sight of the fact that culture has created the military in the first place. As soon as military takes over things go wrong, whether in Macross or in Japanese history. Imo part of the anti-war message ingraned in the show.

For good or for ill, music (and by extension, culture) is a weapon in Macross. The war with the Zentradi in SDFM is perhaps the best example of this. You don't need force to subjugate a people, you just need to dominate them culturally. Cultural dissemination is warfare. You don't destroy the people, you destroy their identity and their way of life.

Frontier deals with this issue in a more sophisticated manner, but I won't get into the details here.

Originally Posted by Bri

I was trying to contrast SDFM's romance to Frontiers. In SDFM Hikaru military carreer made it hard for him to be with Minmay while it helped him to be with Misa.

It's not a question of careers. It's a question of whether you're willing to take the time to make it happen - Frontier is a case in point in that regard. However strong Hikaru's infatuation for Minmay was, he never made an effort to make it into anything more.

Decisions in love triangles invariably come down to the protagonist's personal preferences. It's never the 'choice' that's hard (or, for that matter, important), but rather the realization.

Originally Posted by Bri

There is little to suggest that this descision comes from romantic feelings by Alto. Ranka goes on a mission Alto disagrees with (the moment he truely fails as a Macross character) and she is escorted by a superior pilot so there is no need for a chivalrous knight act.

The scene does, however, indicate that Alto's feelings regarding Frontier and the Vajra outweighed any romantic sentiment that he harbored towards Ranka. This is a point that Ranka was coming to terms with throughout episode 20 and 21, and probably also helped precipitate her decision to leave.

And when you look at it, the focus of Alto's character was never about the pursuit of romance so much as it was about finding himself, and finding that place called home. It was just a question of who was searching for that same door.