Israel, Hamas & the Gaza Strip

[Aquillion]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Palestians do have a choice. They can choose to do nothing and become human shields for Hamas and human colleteral damage in media reports or they can stop being Human shield and not let Hamas fire rockets form thier homes. if Hamas is not firing rockets form where the oridinary people are then the oridinary people won't become colleteral damage when israel retaliate.

No, they actually can't. Hamas is not above shooting people who 'collaborate' with the Israelis (which, by the Hamas definition, means doing anything Hamas doesn't want them to.) Many of the interviews with survivors after Israeli attacks note this -- many Palestinians don't speak out against Hamas because they are afraid Hamas will shoot them. If you refuse to let Hamas shoot rockets from near your home (and, remember, Israeli attacks are not that accurate -- if they're being shot from the abandoned lot nearby, you are at risk), then Hamas will accuse you of being an Israeli spy and kill you, then proceed to shoot rockets anyway. Many Palestinians are effectively hostages; you won't see too many saying this publicly (because, again, the punishment for saying anything that even slightly sides with Israel in a Hamas-controlled area is often death), but it is a reality.

Some people argue that these Palestinians deserve to die for not taking a stand against Hamas -- but take a stance how? Hamas is the closest thing to a government in the area; they don't have much else, and the abject poverty of sanctions meant to keep Hamas in check also prevents any other effective social structures from forming. Arguing that Palestinians deserve to die for not throwing their lives away in futile one-by-one attacks in the defense of Israel makes no more sense than saying that anyone else deserves to die just because they live under a government of violent thugs; you can't condemn people to death simply for not being action-movie heroes.

You are essentially arguing that Palestinians deserve to die for not violently uprising and confronting Hamas with force; this argument would condemn a large portion of humanity throughout history to death.

They are victims of Hamas. But that doesn't excuse being cavalier with their lives during attacks like these.

[Thingle]

^Distinctions don't matter. Civilian or Terrorist, no difference in chaos. It's war and one side must go all out to destroy the other. Let them think about the innocents when the smoke settles.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Thingle

They knew it and still they started it. Now, let one side surrender first before the medicines come in.

Actually, it is both true and sad that there are those in high places on both sides who doesn't want this conflict resolved. As Aquillion mentioned, Hamas is both the good cop and the bad cop in Gaza.

There will definitely be those whose positions or even wealth would be threatened should there be lasting peace. These people hide their intentions beneath their words.

[Thingle]

But you see, it's war. It's not a police operation. Your idealistic cries of pinpoint first would only apply to police raids. Gaza is foreign territory, you expect troops to just go house to house in such a hostile environment? and for Palis to just take it lying down? no.

here it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, or who started first. What matters is who is more powerful and who has both the longer sword and deeper wallet. This is real life, victors aren't determined by their morality.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by TUndead

well dont forget blowing up in public places but they only did that for 3-4 years so that isnt that bad. and which country exacly during history did they let an enime live right by them atk them and do nothing? and yes i can say with a 100% guarantee that if they didnt atk us at all we wouldnt atk them

Attack? Maybe not. What Israel will do, and in fact has done during lulls is expand Jewish settlements in Palestinian areas, cut off supplies to the Palestinians, and so forth. Actual attacks are only a part of this.

Originally Posted by TUndead

u r so extreme tough I can agree with ur point yes they r using inocent ppl as shields of course i understand ur point(Aquillion) but we cant just sit and do nothing, we dont want to hit inocent ppl but we cant jusg do nothing so we had no choise

Doing something has worked so well after all. Have the bombings ever put a stop to rocket attacks?

Originally Posted by Thingle

^Distinctions don't matter. Civilian or Terrorist, no difference in chaos. It's war and one side must go all out to destroy the other. Let them think about the innocents when the smoke settles.

Why must one side go all out to destroy the other? This is a situation that could be resolved if it wasn't for attitudes like that. Also decades of fighting have resolved exactly nothing. If a strategy isn't working, does continuing it make any sense?

[yezhanquan]

Issues of legitimacy have to be resolved if you don't want to be kept awake by them in the future. It's political science 101. In the short term, force will work, but it will not work indefinitely.

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

If a strategy isn't working, does continuing it make any sense?

IT didn't work because pussy politicians fawn over and lose their balls when they see dead bodies on CNN. Then they whine about medical aid, humanitarian situation bla bla bla so on and so forth until they set so many restrictions that made warfare lose its feasibility while providing no permanent reason for a nation to not go to war.
THat's what happened in Lebanon 2 years ago.

[yezhanquan]

Israel isn't worried about Lebanon or Hamas, per say. It's worried about their backers, Iran being but one example. The various Muslim states are treating this part of the ME as their PR parade ground. If nothing else, it helps distract their people from their own mis-governance.

It is a charade, just of the different sort you're expecting.

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Israel isn't worried about Lebanon or Hamas, per say. It's worried about their backers, Iran being but one example. The various Muslim states are treating this part of the ME as their PR parade ground. I

Which goes back to my claim that these Arabs want the world to see their people get killed by Israelis for their own political gain. They have this martyrdom card which only works when people are naive to sacrifice their all-important selves to a hopeless cause.

[yezhanquan]

Not necessarily naive, but a "What-the-heck-let's-do-it" attitude. Notice that those who do such things usually are those who live in a Crapsack World. Sure, there are those who are truly fanatical about such things, but if the economic situation in the Arab world doesn't improve, such things will continue.

Also, like Christianity in the not-so-distant past, many Muslims deemed Islam as a template in every facet of their lives. When you have a religion as such a template, things happen.

Crapsack World + Eloquent preachers talking about paradise = (stuff you see)

The well-to-do ones just jump straight into the second part.

The best weapon is, like I've always maintained, demographics. Israel cannot ignore this. The day where Jews become a minority in Israel is fast approaching. I'm reasonably confident that by the time I reach Vexx's age, Israelis of Arab descent would be a force to be reckoned with.

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

if the economic situation in the Arab world doesn't improve, such things will continue.

Which according to some Italian commie must be preceded by political reform brought about by battles of ideas, from all sectors of society. The arabs are notorious for their lack of this. Their elites have control of media (and even religion), which in turn gives them domination over the people's minds. They even jail bloggers ffs. Therefore, their people's minds will not develop, and they will still be naive to question why the hell they are doing shit in the first place.

[yezhanquan]

Well, I quote Zakaria. In his The Future of Freedom, he wrote:

"In a religion without an official clergy, bin Laden has as much- or as little- authority to issue fatwas as does a Pakistani taxi driver in New York City."

Get the book. Your views are inside, but in a better argued manner.

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Well, I quote Zakaria. In his The Future of Freedom, he wrote:

"In a religion without an official clergy, bin Laden has as much- or as little- authority to issue fatwas as does a Pakistani taxi driver in New York City."

Get the book. Your views are inside, but in a better argued manner.

IMO, his power depends on the recipient of his message. If he is preaching to critical thinkers, he won't have the same effect.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Aquillion

No, they actually can't. Hamas is not above shooting people who 'collaborate' with the Israelis (which, by the Hamas definition, means doing anything Hamas doesn't want them to.) Many of the interviews with survivors after Israeli attacks note this -- many Palestinians don't speak out against Hamas because they are afraid Hamas will shoot them. If you refuse to let Hamas shoot rockets from near your home (and, remember, Israeli attacks are not that accurate -- if they're being shot from the abandoned lot nearby, you are at risk), then Hamas will accuse you of being an Israeli spy and kill you, then proceed to shoot rockets anyway. Many Palestinians are effectively hostages; you won't see too many saying this publicly (because, again, the punishment for saying anything that even slightly sides with Israel in a Hamas-controlled area is often death), but it is a reality.

Some people argue that these Palestinians deserve to die for not taking a stand against Hamas -- but take a stance how? Hamas is the closest thing to a government in the area; they don't have much else, and the abject poverty of sanctions meant to keep Hamas in check also prevents any other effective social structures from forming. Arguing that Palestinians deserve to die for not throwing their lives away in futile one-by-one attacks in the defense of Israel makes no more sense than saying that anyone else deserves to die just because they live under a government of violent thugs; you can't condemn people to death simply for not being action-movie heroes.

You are essentially arguing that Palestinians deserve to die for not violently uprising and confronting Hamas with force; this argument would condemn a large portion of humanity throughout history to death.

They are victims of Hamas. But that doesn't excuse being cavalier with their lives during attacks like these.

It is not Israel's respnsiblity to save the palestinians. if the palenstinians want to be save they will have to do it themselves.

[WanderingKnight]

It is not Israel's respnsiblity to save the palestinians. if the palenstinians want to be save they will have to do it themselves.

What? So they're responsible for taking care of themselves when they're getting fucking blown up? What kind of twisted logic is that?

And whoever says "Lots of Israelites have died!", even our Israelite friend here:

Come on, use your head for a little while. Do you really reckon a country with absolutely no military power at all can be as destructive as Israel could be? Do you have any idea what the military power of Israel is?

It's huge. Probably one of the most powerful in the world. Hamas' manually crafted rockets don't stand a chance against it.

And Thingle, you're an idiot. "Arabs" (we're talking Palestine people here) are culturally backwards so they deserve to get annihilated? How high do you reckon the Philippines stand on the global "culture scale"? (lol)

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

And Thingle, you're an idiot. "Arabs" (we're talking Palestine people here) are culturally backwards so they deserve to get annihilated? How high do you reckon the Philippines stand on the global "culture scale"? (lol)

the insult-train chuggs again.... Good for you I'm not a neanderthal =D

And brush up on your reading comprehension. They teach that in primary school.

[yezhanquan]

On that, the Arabs have the habit of harking back to the days of the Islamic empires. Last I checked, that was a long time ago. Modern Arab society has many serious gaps. But, most seriously, the lack of avenues to debate and discuss ideas.

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

On that, the Arabs have the habit of harking back to the days of the Islamic empires. Last I checked, that was a long time ago. Modern Arab society has many serious gaps. But, most seriously, the lack of avenues to debate and discuss ideas.

That's what I am saying. Their haven't passed the point that gives them freedom of thought or expression. Islamic culture hasn't yet progressed there. Similar to Inquisition-era Christianity.

[yezhanquan]

And that is in The Future of Freedom as well.

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

And that is in The Future of Freedom as well.

Well, it's a totally different culture to be judged by western paradigm, so it cannot be said that such culture is bad or so on. But the fact remains that the lack of avenues stunted their cultural power and took the economic power with it.