AnimeSuki Forums

Undertaker · 2012-03-15, 12:07

I'm conflicted on this.

On on hand a new Saint Seiya series is always good even if it's not canon.

On the other hand, where the hell are the Heaven Chapters?

We got a confusing double canon in Lost Canvas from Teshirogi and Next Dimension from Kurumada. IMO, LC is better than ND and I don't get why he didn't just leave LC along and work on Heaven Chapter.

Now the whole franchise is really a pile of mess and the already non-logical timeline and story only become that much more nonsense.

But the worse thing is that I will still watch this if for no other reason than childhood nostalgia.

sometime I just hate myself......

Sageblink · 2012-03-15, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertaker

But the worse thing is that I will still watch this if for no other reason than childhood nostalgia.

sometime I just hate myself......

Why is that ?
I'll do the same. It's not that important if everything are not perfectly "manga canon". We still got some cameo by loved characters + a new story.

I see this as a sequel of the TV show, not the manga.

Undertaker · 2012-03-15, 13:28

The illogical part I can deal with, it that part that the more I watch the more I want to seek out Kurumada and put a gun on his head to draw the damn Heaven Chapters.

God know I've been wait for it for over 20 years now, and that little movie and teaser manga few years ago just make me rage....

To think I used to watch the anime over and over again on VHS tapes and buying the manga with my allowance, damn Kurumada....

But like I said, I'll still be a sucker and watch it...

Miraluka · 2012-03-15, 13:33

LOL. Undertakes, Heaven Chapter movie isn't canon, Kurumada himself said that.

The Heaven Chapter will be featured in ND in accord to him where he is using the characters TOEI used for the movie.

Undertaker · 2012-03-15, 14:17

I know and that was part of my freakin' rage.

It should have just been a really simple, "I've rested for 15 years and now I recharged so let's go!!!!"

But nooooooooo!!!!!!!

He have to make things more and more messier and complicated on an already illogical series even way back in the 80s with all the Cats Eyes and Kinniku Man of the world. (BTW those series were AWESOME)

And once again, yes I will watch this while cursing at my screen like I do when I go back visit my parent and watching Taiwanese Dramas.

In case nobody gets it, Taiwanese Prime Time drama airs daily and usually lasts well over an year and 300 episodes.

No matter how the drama is call or what genre it started as, it always end up with

the main characters taking control of a company,
=>
protecting the company from hostile take over,
=>
falling in love,
=>
getting into a love triangle,
=>
get married,
=>
having potential affair,
=>
the company faces trouble again,
=>
someone died (usually the wife)
=>
Lost the company
=>
met some nice men
=>
and repeat from beginning....

Kanon · 2012-03-15, 15:17

Seiya!! I can't wait for a full PV.

They just keep releasing more and more spoilers... at this rate we're going to know the whole story. I wouldn't have clicked on that spoiler tag. I hope they're going to stop now. We are already more than enough about the setting and the characters.

houkoholic · 2012-03-15, 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertaker

We got a confusing double canon in Lost Canvas from Teshirogi and Next Dimension from Kurumada.

LC isn't canon anymore.

Quote:

IMO, LC is better than ND and I don't get why he didn't just leave LC along and work on Heaven Chapter.

ND started first but it's progress was slow and became an irregular feature thus LC over-taken the story. He probably has some contractual obligation to not abandon the story, it's not up to him I would think.

Quote:

Now the whole franchise is really a pile of mess and the already non-logical timeline and story only become that much more nonsense.

Again, LC isn't canon, and neither are the movies FWIW. Heck even the anime which is based on the manga don't agree with each other (Steel Saints, Asgard Arc etc). There's no mess to speak of really because it's simple - you just take Kurumada's manga (original and ND) only as the manga canon, the anime TV series + Hades OVA as it's own anime universe canon (and Omega is said to be a continuation of the TV series), everything else are alternate universes.

Undertaker · 2012-03-16, 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by houkoholic

LC isn't canon anymore.

ND started first but it's progress was slow and became an irregular feature thus LC over-taken the story. He probably has some contractual obligation to not abandon the story, it's not up to him I would think.

Again, LC isn't canon, and neither are the movies FWIW. Heck even the anime which is based on the manga don't agree with each other (Steel Saints, Asgard Arc etc). There's no mess to speak of really because it's simple - you just take Kurumada's manga (original and ND) only as the manga canon, the anime TV series + Hades OVA as it's own anime universe canon (and Omega is said to be a continuation of the TV series), everything else are alternate universes.

I know, but contractual reason or not, once LC took over, he should just leave it along and he didn't. Instead he resumed ND and then at first claim both series are different take on same story before finalizing ND as canon.

That why I say the whole thing got complicated, and really for no reason.

But like I say, I'll still end up watching it and cursing WTF while watching it at same time going ga-ga like a fanboy over new attacks.

houkoholic · 2012-03-16, 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertaker

I know, but contractual reason or not, once LC took over, he should just leave it along and he didn't. Instead he resumed ND and then at first claim both series are different take on same story before finalizing ND as canon.

Kurumada is still the original writer of the Saint Seiya universe, he can do what he pleases really, even though if you don't like it. AFAIK, ND and LC was supposed to be the same story told from a different perspective from the get go according to the Japanese wiki article, it wasn't a back paddle claim which Kurumada made later. The divergence came after, not before. And again, ND came FIRST - it was ALWAYS intended to be canon.

EDIT: Also LC has plot points in it that doesn't fit the original canon. For example supposedly only Dohko and Shion were the surviving saints in the battle, but in LC Yato and Yuzuriha were alive too.

Quote:

That why I say the whole thing got complicated, and really for no reason.

Contractual reasons are a pretty damn good reason to keep going, the publisher would most probably sue for compensation if Kurumada don't keep drawing it, and Kurumada's reputation as an artist would've gone down the drain and he could retire early as no other publisher would publish his work.

Undertaker · 2012-03-16, 23:39

Who is talking about the plot hole right now?

If you want to pick about the plot holes and inconsistencies there are more than of them in the original manga to begin with. Heck, disregard continuity is pretty much a must for this series.

Yes, contractual reason is big enough, but the he shouldn't have give the go ahead for LC. Either way he is not free of blame. It is also a fact that the way the franchises is spreading out can be much better organized than it is now. Hell, I'm not even taking G into account here.

As a franchise, Saint Seiya has tons of problem happen to it that typical don't happen to a series/mangaka that reached Kurumada's status. But still it's a franchise that is capable of drawing fans back it.

Let's just leave this as is, agree to disagree as you obviously finds no fault in the franchise.

On the other hand, I'll just continue to look forward to the series in my own way despite the obvious faults with the franchise.

Miraluka · 2012-03-17, 23:38

Second teaser of the series:

Arabesque · 2012-03-18, 00:22

Oh god ... that Pegasus Fantasy remix, that Furuya Tooru performance, those collars!!!!

Wow, I honestly can't be more excited for this show. I never imagined that Umakoshi's designs would work so well with Saint Seiya before, but now that I've seen them in action, I can never think how they could've been separated in the first place.

Sheba · 2012-03-18, 02:51

Shingo Araki can now truly rest in peace.

Undertaker · 2012-03-18, 03:07

That remix is great. Designs look pretty good too, but I want really wants to see the constellation form of the Cloth.

Shiroth · 2012-03-18, 03:48

Pegasus Fantasy piano remix? Yeah, I'll take that.

Guido · 2012-03-18, 17:45

Talk about confusing timelines and material that has been left out of the canon.

The dialogue for the Latin American dub got it mixed up at several points, particularly the names, that left the audience confused. These happened when the first Saint Seiya TV show was broadcasted in my country during its 1993 run.

But, once the TV series got to the climax of the 12 Zodiac Temples arc, then the dubbed dialogue finally got fixed and remained that way for the Asgard and Poseidon arcs respectively.

I will tell you something:
When Saint Seiya first aired almost 20 years ago in my country the dubbing company didn't use the original opening and ending themes and respective videos.
They instead used the Spain's dub as both the opening and ending to the show, and the video was a montage of clips from both the TV series and the first Saint Seiya movie.
When Saint Seiya got re-aired in my country ten years later in the Latin American Cartoon Network this time they properly put and dubbed both original opening and ending themes.

houkoholic · 2012-03-19, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Let's just leave this as is, agree to disagree as you obviously finds no fault in the franchise.

It's not that I don't find faults in the franchise, but unlike you I don't try to fit obviously conflicting continuations together and cause grief to myself when the authors had laid out a clear canon to follow which I accept. It's not even a new thing in the anime/manga industry so it's hardly something that I ever worry about when it's easy to see that they have laid out that the manga by Kurumada is its own canon, the anime has its own canon, and everything else is classified as alternate universe.

Here's what you come off as - you love LC, which I do agree is a great piece of work, and wants it to be part of the canon, even though it is obviously not. You are just causing needless grief to yourself and blaming it on the author and demanding that he should concede to a piece of work created by another author, based on Kurumada's universe, over his own hard work which he had build up over many years. That to me is the ultimate form of arrogance because who are you to dictate what the author does with HIS OWN CREATION? And that's the problem I have with your POV.

Miraluka · 2012-03-21, 11:43

New pic:

xizro345 · 2012-03-21, 15:19

I'll probably check the first couple episodes then stop, I wasn't really a fan of neither Kurumada's work nor the original anime. Aside Umakoshi's work (which means some interesting coreography at least) it seems to recycle all the stuff I hate from the original.

Undertaker · 2012-03-21, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by houkoholic

It's not that I don't find faults in the franchise, but unlike you I don't try to fit obviously conflicting continuations together and cause grief to myself when the authors had laid out a clear canon to follow which I accept. It's not even a new thing in the anime/manga industry so it's hardly something that I ever worry about when it's easy to see that they have laid out that the manga by Kurumada is its own canon, the anime has its own canon, and everything else is classified as alternate universe.

Here's what you come off as - you love LC, which I do agree is a great piece of work, and wants it to be part of the canon, even though it is obviously not. You are just causing needless grief to yourself and blaming it on the author and demanding that he should concede to a piece of work created by another author, based on Kurumada's universe, over his own hard work which he had build up over many years. That to me is the ultimate form of arrogance because who are you to dictate what the author does with HIS OWN CREATION? And that's the problem I have with your POV.

I do like LC, but whether or not it is canon wasn't the point for me. It won't kill me if LC never existed and I only have ND to read because I do like ND as well it just happen to find LC a tad more enjoyable.

My issues is at Kurumada's (or the editorials' depend what you believe, but I being a fan long enough to know that a famous mangaka like Kurumada won't have zero says on their decision) seemly changing of direction every couple of the years based on the info I had read and gathered at time. It a fact that the whole situation could have (and probably should) avoided with a little more care and timely announcements instead of late announcements.

But with that being said, it is still a work I'm willing to watch and most likely will enjoy a lot while watching it.

How is that arrogance when I'm just venting off and my own opinion and criticism? I didn't demand anything, show me where I demanded any action from Kurumada right now!!!! EVERYTHING I talked about (and venting off) was already DONE.

And that is why you come off as a fan who can't find a fault in a work and you obviously misinterpret my venting session.

Answer me this,

If you can't even critique a work or an action AFTER FACT. When can you critique it?

There is a difference between "should have", "could have" compare to "needs to"

I don't remember I ever say Kurumada "needs to" do anything other then Heaven Chapters which is nowhere insight and is just a fanboy hope.

But it's getting off topic, if you want to talk more about this, feel free to PM.

2012-03-15, 12:07	Link #81
Undertaker Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: U.S.	I'm conflicted on this. On on hand a new Saint Seiya series is always good even if it's not canon. On the other hand, where the hell are the Heaven Chapters? We got a confusing double canon in Lost Canvas from Teshirogi and Next Dimension from Kurumada. IMO, LC is better than ND and I don't get why he didn't just leave LC along and work on Heaven Chapter. Now the whole franchise is really a pile of mess and the already non-logical timeline and story only become that much more nonsense. But the worse thing is that I will still watch this if for no other reason than childhood nostalgia. sometime I just hate myself...... __________________

2012-03-15, 13:28	Link #83
Undertaker Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: U.S.	The illogical part I can deal with, it that part that the more I watch the more I want to seek out Kurumada and put a gun on his head to draw the damn Heaven Chapters. God know I've been wait for it for over 20 years now, and that little movie and teaser manga few years ago just make me rage.... To think I used to watch the anime over and over again on VHS tapes and buying the manga with my allowance, damn Kurumada.... But like I said, I'll still be a sucker and watch it... __________________

2012-03-15, 14:17	Link #85
Undertaker Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: U.S.	I know and that was part of my freakin' rage. It should have just been a really simple, "I've rested for 15 years and now I recharged so let's go!!!!" But nooooooooo!!!!!!! He have to make things more and more messier and complicated on an already illogical series even way back in the 80s with all the Cats Eyes and Kinniku Man of the world. (BTW those series were AWESOME) And once again, yes I will watch this while cursing at my screen like I do when I go back visit my parent and watching Taiwanese Dramas. In case nobody gets it, Taiwanese Prime Time drama airs daily and usually lasts well over an year and 300 episodes. No matter how the drama is call or what genre it started as, it always end up with the main characters taking control of a company, => protecting the company from hostile take over, => falling in love, => getting into a love triangle, => get married, => having potential affair, => the company faces trouble again, => someone died (usually the wife) => Lost the company => met some nice men => and repeat from beginning.... __________________

2012-03-15, 15:17	Link #86
Kanon Kana Hanazawa ♥ Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: France Age: 37	Seiya!! I can't wait for a full PV. They just keep releasing more and more spoilers... at this rate we're going to know the whole story. I wouldn't have clicked on that spoiler tag. I hope they're going to stop now. We are already more than enough about the setting and the characters. __________________

2012-03-16, 23:39	Link #90
Undertaker Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: U.S.	Who is talking about the plot hole right now? If you want to pick about the plot holes and inconsistencies there are more than of them in the original manga to begin with. Heck, disregard continuity is pretty much a must for this series. Yes, contractual reason is big enough, but the he shouldn't have give the go ahead for LC. Either way he is not free of blame. It is also a fact that the way the franchises is spreading out can be much better organized than it is now. Hell, I'm not even taking G into account here. As a franchise, Saint Seiya has tons of problem happen to it that typical don't happen to a series/mangaka that reached Kurumada's status. But still it's a franchise that is capable of drawing fans back it. Let's just leave this as is, agree to disagree as you obviously finds no fault in the franchise. On the other hand, I'll just continue to look forward to the series in my own way despite the obvious faults with the franchise. __________________

2012-03-15, 13:33	Link #84
Miraluka Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 34	LOL. Undertakes, Heaven Chapter movie isn't canon, Kurumada himself said that. The Heaven Chapter will be featured in ND in accord to him where he is using the characters TOEI used for the movie.

2012-03-17, 23:38	Link #91
Miraluka Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 34	Second teaser of the series: <p>No iframe support, please <a href="http://youtu.be/fs5nCwH9hCM">watch on YouTube</a>.</p>

2012-03-18, 00:22	Link #92
Arabesque Licensed Hunter-a-holic Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: United Kingdom Age: 35	Oh god ... that Pegasus Fantasy remix, that Furuya Tooru performance, those *collars*!!!! Wow, I honestly can't be more excited for this show. I never imagined that Umakoshi's designs would work so well with Saint Seiya before, but now that I've seen them in action, I can never think how they could've been separated in the first place. __________________

2012-03-18, 02:51	Link #93
Sheba RUN, YOU FOOLS! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost Age: 44	Shingo Araki can now truly rest in peace.

2012-03-18, 03:07	Link #94
Undertaker Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: U.S.	That remix is great. Designs look pretty good too, but I want really wants to see the constellation form of the Cloth. __________________

2012-03-18, 03:48	Link #95
Shiroth Beautiful fighter. Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: England, UK Age: 37	Pegasus Fantasy piano remix? Yeah, I'll take that. __________________ MyAnimeList Twitter

2012-03-18, 17:45	Link #96
Guido Snobby Gentleman Join Date: May 2004 Location: Monterrey, México Age: 43	Talk about confusing timelines and material that has been left out of the canon. The dialogue for the Latin American dub got it mixed up at several points, particularly the names, that left the audience confused. These happened when the first Saint Seiya TV show was broadcasted in my country during its 1993 run. But, once the TV series got to the climax of the 12 Zodiac Temples arc, then the dubbed dialogue finally got fixed and remained that way for the Asgard and Poseidon arcs respectively. I will tell you something: When Saint Seiya first aired almost 20 years ago in my country the dubbing company didn't use the original opening and ending themes and respective videos. They instead used the Spain's dub as both the opening and ending to the show, and the video was a montage of clips from both the TV series and the first Saint Seiya movie. When Saint Seiya got re-aired in my country ten years later in the Latin American Cartoon Network this time they properly put and dubbed both original opening and ending themes.

2012-03-21, 11:43	Link #98
Miraluka Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 34	New pic:

2012-03-21, 15:19	Link #99
xizro345 King's Justice Join Date: Apr 2004	I'll probably check the first couple episodes then stop, I wasn't really a fan of neither Kurumada's work nor the original anime. Aside Umakoshi's work (which means some interesting coreography at least) it seems to recycle all the stuff I hate from the original.