Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

...Which one ?

The blonde British girl... never knew they are fluent in Japanese.

[Zavie]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Yeah Mozart. Do you know how hard his father trained him? Have you studied how his music evolved and matured through what expert usually divides as 3 stages of his musical development? How much time he put into the exercise of improvisation? Also that the central component of music in that time was theme and development, which means lots of work. Sure Mozart did compose things out of habit, but the real memorable ones, those that made lasting marks are ones which you can trace its elements for years. Many of his later works are refined version of his earlier composition. Also if you have the time, listen to how his symphony evolves. Do pay special attention to his symphony number 8, 17, 25, 29, 35, 38, 40, and 41. You will be amazed at how his music progressively sound mature. Genius do have something in them that most other people don't have. It still takes years of practice for the genius to bring out what's in them for the world to observe.


"You know that I immerse myself in music, so to speak—that I think about it all day long—that I like experimenting—studying—reflecting."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart%...itional_method


Think also about this. It took Beethoven 4 years to make his 5th symphony, but you can find some traces of its elements in works 10 or more years before that was completed.

Great works of art almost never is something that happens spontaneously. Invariably there is a long history of development leading up to it.

What you said are all correct. The same can be said for Mashiro, she was immersed by the art world. She didn't have to care for anything else but painting and art. And of course she spent a great amount of effort to get recognized as a world-class artist.

But, the same can be said for any other good (not genius) artists, if you want to excel at anything, you need tremedous amount of effort and a bit of luck. I am just not going to make it as something only geniuses do. I am just saying that hard-working is just a natural part of the process.

I would say a genius and a good artist would work equally hard, the different is however, always the results. What make a genius's works better than a good artist's work then?

However, that is not the point I'm trying to make. please let me put it another way. Assuming the same scenario again, Sorata asked Mashiro what she did previously, Mashiro answred "I painted" 3 times. After that, if Sorata asked her "Was it fun?", what do think Mashiro's answer would be? I'm interested in that answer, so to speak

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Zavie

What you said are all correct. The same can be said for Mashiro, she was immersed by the art world. She didn't have to care for anything els but paiting and art. And of course she spent a great amount of effort to get recognized as a world-class artist.

But, the same can be said for any other good (not genius) artists, if you want to excel at anything, you need tremedous amount of effourt and a bit of luck. I am just not going to make it as something only geniuses do. I am just saying that hard-working is just a natural part of the process.

I would say a genius and a good artist would work equally hard, the different is however, always the results. What make a genius's works better than a good artist's work then?

However, that is not the point I'm trying to make. please let me put it another way. Assuming the same scenario again, Sorata asked Mashiro what she did previously, Mashiro answred "I painted" 3 times. After that, if Sorata asked her "Was it fun?", what do think Mashiro's answer would be? I'm interested in that answer, so to speak

Is art fun? That can be an interesting question. You will be surprised at diversity of answer you can get when you ask various artists. I do know that usually, the artist feel somewhat relieved when good work comes out. Another answer you may hear is that, some just had to do it, even though some part of them didn't like doing it. You often hear an artist saying that there was something in them that just had to be released, no matter how hard they had to work for its release. If Mashiro is such a genius as Rita and Sorata thinks, and if Mashiro don't totally shun working in fine arts, there probably will come a time when she feels that there is something in her, something different and some what new, yearning to be released in form of fine arts drawing. As I said before, I believe her working on manga can enrich her fine art, thus believe she needs to seek balance between manga and drawing, so her creative yearning can be scratched in the suitable manner, whether it be in form of manga or painting.

[garbage]

some additional thoughts,

1) I don't like how rita is handling this though I get where she's coming from, still it's too pushy. and why go back to england? as shown in the episode she is in fact still painting. Of course she spends more energy on Manga these days but that's what she wants. Rita clearly has some other motives aside from "letting a world class talent go to waste"

2) inb4 In the end it is Mashiro's choice, no one else's.

3) the Hard Work vs Genius discussion about Mashiro's. I think it's both. Remember the Exam episode where she went from 0 - 100 score in one sitting? That's where Mashirou's genius lie, I think she've had this since birth. Photographic visual memory, no amount of hard work ( well possibly hyper extreme training ala Jason Bourne >.<) would let a normal person achieve that.
On the other hard, her answer on " what have you been doing?" > "painting, painting, painting" does indicate that there was also 100 passion/ hard work/dedication that she invested in the painting art. I mean learning art techniques, brush usages, types of paint/medium etc cannot be attributed to genius alone. Even Sorata took it that way in that episode, that is why he was worked harder after that on his own dreams.

4) I don't think Mashiro hated painting , nor her previous life (she cares much for rita too). She was painting beautifully in the school studio and more tellingly Sorata's room. I think she still loves painting, certainly still has pride in her previous work (she wouldn't if she hated it) as when she thanked Sorata for saying her painting was beautiful. it's more on what she wants to do right now, and expanding her horizons.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

...
That's probably part of it, but I saw a different element in it, too:
"So you don't care if I go away? Sorata no Baka!"

5) and yeah i get this too from Mashiro, she even answered Sorata's text in the middle of her painting! we all know how absorbed in her work she can be.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by wontaek

1. Even in fine arts, you just can't leave for several years and then jump right back in where you left off. There is a great deal of technique that require constant practice to maintain. Without it, you can't draw what you want to draw. To think even someone like Mashiro can abandon painting for several years and just come back is just not understanding amount of work that goes into obtaining such a skill. Even Picasso had his training period and even very late in his life, he would sometimes practice in traditional way.

It requires time, but it's not impossible. With motivation added to her talent, she can work back up to where she left off. And besides, it's not as if she's abandoning all art, she's exploring a different medium. Of course some of her skills will fade a bit from lack of practice, but her innate artistic sense won't so easily die. Of course perfecting yourself at a craft takes discipline, but expecting someone to devote their life to a certain track without ever taking the time to explore anything else is a lot to expect of a person. (I know you're suggesting that she should try to find a balance.)

Originally Posted by wontaek

2. Most people think just doing what you want is the best way to happiness. Then why should anyone listen to their parents? You do have wonder how someone like Shiina Mashiro would feel when she is 30+ , and if she did not succeed in making a living as a mangaka. If she entirely abandoned painting for 10+ years, she will struggle to come back, and there won't be many people to support her to regain her footing as an artist. How do you think she will feel when she has to cope with possibility that she may never draw as she could when she was young, and she may never have enough time to draw all she wants? I have seen how wasted artistic talent is like when they are too old to accomplish what they want. The regret and remorse is intense. This is why I think, for sake for Mashiro's long term happiness, she must remain in touch with world of fine art and steadily produce art work while she is trying to become better mangaka.

I think there is an equal chance at remorse if you don't choose to try things that interest you in your youth. Once you commit your life to a certain path, you often don't have the time and opportunity to explore other paths. I think this is the time in her life when she should experiment and try things.

I'm not saying that she should avoid painting either (particularly if she isn't certain where she wants to go yet), but at the same time I don't think it's right to insist. All the talent in the world does you no good if you're embittered.


And by the way, for what it's worth, by the time I was just about Mashiro's age (maybe just a bit older), I didn't listen to my parents and made my own choices. Some of them I regret, and some of them I'm proud of, but all in all I don't think I would choose differently. Living life, in my view, is about making choices, not just walking the path laid before you. So I think this is an important learning experience for her, even if she's impacting her own future in an unknown way that others may consider less fruitful or productive.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by garbage

some additional thoughts,

1) I don't like how rita is handling this though I get where she's coming from, still it's too pushy. and why go back to england? as shown in the episode she is in fact still painting. Of course she spends more energy on Manga these days but that's what she wants. Rita clearly has some other motives aside from "letting a world class talent go to waste"

2) inb4 In the end it is Mashiro's choice, no one else's.

3) the Hard Work vs Genius discussion about Mashiro's. I think it's both. Remember the Exam episode where she went from 0 - 100 score in one sitting? That's where Mashirou's genius lie, I think she've had this since birth. Photographic visual memory, no amount of hard work ( well possibly hyper extreme training ala Jason Bourne >.<) would let a normal person achieve that.
On the other hard, her answer on " what have you been doing?" > "painting, painting, painting" does indicate that there was also 100 passion/ hard work/dedication that she invested in the painting art. I mean learning art techniques, brush usages, types of paint/medium etc cannot be attributed to genius alone. Even Sorata took it that way in that episode, that is why he was worked harder after that on his own dreams.

4) I don't think Mashiro hated painting , nor her previous life (she cares much for rita too). She was painting beautifully in the school studio and more tellingly Sorata's room. I think she still loves painting, certainly still has pride in her previous work (she wouldn't if she hated it) as when she thanked Sorata for saying her painting was beautiful. it's more on what she wants to do right now, and expanding her horizons.

5) and yeah i get this too from Mashiro, she even answered Sorata's text in the middle of her painting! we all know how absorbed in her work she can be.

good points. But, while indeed a person needs to be master of her choice, nobody is an island. Sometimes, best works by genius was made when he/she followed another person's lead(s).

[Zavie]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Is art fun? That can be an interesting question. You will be surprised at diversity of answer you can get when you ask various artists. I do know that usually, the artist feel somewhat relieved when good work comes out. Another answer you may hear is that, some just had to do it, even though some part of them didn't like doing it. You often hear an artist saying that there was something in them that just had to be released, no matter how hard they had to work for its release. If Mashiro is such a genius as Rita and Sorata thinks, and if Mashiro don't totally shun working in fine arts, there probably will come a time when she feels that there is something in her, something different and some what new, yearning to be released in form of fine arts drawing. As I said before, I believe her working on manga can enrich her fine art, thus believe she needs to seek balance between manga and drawing, so her creative yearning can be scratched in the suitable manner, whether it be in form of manga or painting.

No, rather than "Is art fun?", the question I wanted to asked her is "Was doing nothing but painting in you life fun?", not in a sarcastically way (maybe a bit sympathetic though)

I mean, I don't doubt her passion for art or painting in general. I'm just curious about her feelings regarding how she spent her previous time in England as a whole.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It requires time, but it's not impossible. With motivation added to her talent, she can work back up to where she left off. And besides, it's not as if she's abandoning all art, she's exploring a different medium. Of course some of her skills will fade a bit from lack of practice, but her innate artistic sense won't so easily die. Of course perfecting yourself at a craft takes discipline, but expecting someone to devote their life to a certain track without ever taking the time to explore anything else is a lot to expect of a person. (I know you're suggesting that she should try to find a balance.)

I think there is an equal chance at remorse if you don't choose to try things that interest you in your youth. Once you commit your life to a certain path, you often don't have the time and opportunity to explore other paths. I think this is the time in her life when she should experiment and try things.

I'm not saying that she should avoid painting either (particularly if she isn't certain where she wants to go yet), but at the same time I don't think it's right to insist. All the talent in the world does you no good if you're embittered.


And by the way, for what it's worth, by the time I was just about Mashiro's age (maybe just a bit older), I didn't listen to my parents and made my own choices. Some of them I regret, and some of them I'm proud of, but all in all I don't think I would choose differently. Living life, in my view, is about making choices, not just walking the path laid before you. So I think this is an important learning experience for her, even if she's impacting her own future in an unknown way that others may consider less fruitful or productive.

good points. In end, I think Mashiro needs to strike better balance in her life between manga, drawing, common sense, and plain living skills. It is likely that Mashiro will need to compromise a little with views of people that knows her to find that delicate workable balance. I am skeptical of Mashiro finding the right balance alone, just like Nanami had trouble finding hers alone.

[Zavie]

Originally Posted by wontaek

good points. In end, I think Mashiro needs to strike better balance in her life between manga, drawing, common sense, and plain living skills. It is likely that Mashiro will need to compromise a little with views of people that knows her to find that delicate workable balance. I am skeptical of Mashiro finding the right balance alone, just like Nanami had trouble finding hers alone.

Only if it is that simple I mean if Shiina even an ounce more of common sense, we wouldn't even this anime anymore lol.

[garbage]

^ well at least she knows she needs Sorata

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by wontaek

In end, I think Mashiro needs to strike better balance in her life between manga, drawing, common sense, and plain living skills. It is likely that Mashiro will need to compromise a little with views of people that knows her to find that delicate workable balance. I am skeptical of Mashiro finding the right balance alone, just like Nanami had trouble finding hers alone.

Well, I think part of this is a journey of discovering who really cares about her as a person, and so what voices she should listen to as she tries to find that balance in her life. And part of that is understanding the "agendas" of the various voices around you... which is obviously a theme here. Even Sorata has his issues, and a sort of agenda, but in the end I think he'll find the right answer because he really does care about her and not just what she's able to produce.

I suppose the overall point is that the most important thing that's happening to Mashiro, talent usage notwithstanding, is the relationships she's forming with others, and that will help drive things into balance. But of course, it's also a journey, and it'll probably take some trial and error no matter what.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, I think part of this is a journey of discovering who really cares about her as a person, and so what voices she should listen to as she tries to find that balance in her life. And part of that is understanding the "agendas" of the various voices around you... which is obviously a theme here. Even Sorata has his issues, and a sort of agenda, but in the end I think he'll find the right answer because he really does care about her and not just what she's able to produce.

I suppose the overall point is that the most important thing that's happening to Mashiro, talent usage notwithstanding, is the relationships she's forming with others, and that will help drive things into balance. But of course, it's also a journey, and it'll probably take some trial and error no matter what.

May be, in this anime series, we will be treated with fun yet very thoughtful journey.

[kazzuya13]

I think in the last few episode Mashiro will eventually go back to arts world leaving them all behind and come back after finishing her last work before reuniting with Sorata(Whether it is an event cause by Sorata or Mashiro or maybe a coincidence meeting and it is also possible for the wedding of one of the tenants)

[Haak]

Quite an interesting development. Loved the "stupid Sorata" running gag. But I have to say that "teacher vs the hikikimori" bit was kinda awkward. Why did the teacher sound like a 10 year old?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Haak

Why did the teacher sound like a 10 year old?

Really? I thought she sounds just like a normal Japanese lady. It’s just, she has a funny voice when she screams and freaks out. Most likely, they deliberately make her sounds cuter for comedic purpose. Just like Tiger-sensei in Fate/Stay Night .

[Seihai]

Ryuunosuke is hotter than Rita... I died when they said that Nanami is pregnant but the Dragon took away the icing of the cake and double-killed me.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's a word for people that go through life without caring one iota about other people. That word is selfish.

A person who only does what s/he wants to do, and never considers the hopes or feelings of another, is a very selfish and self-centered individual, imo.

That's certainly not a philosophy that I would want to hang my hat on.

On the contrary, if a person goes through life caring for others without considering how his actions would affect himself, that would be self-destructive altruism. We are human, not gods. There must be a balance between giving and taking.

If a person continues to give while taking nothing, (s)he will eventually have nothing left to give. There has got to be something to be taken and gained to continue giving later.

In Shiina's case about returning to painting, there needs to be something more beneficial to her specificially than just pleasing her fans or conforming to her past achievements. If Rita isn't considering how returning to painting will benefit Shiina personally along with the artistic community, then yes, Rita is kind of wrong in a way.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Maybe because these are the people who have been supporting her throughout her career? Maybe because it's good for people to care at least a little bit about other people?

Sure, but whether it's worth servicing those fans at her own expense is another story.

It's not like Shiina's career as a mangaka can't benefit others as well. If you have two paths, both that will make an audience happy, but only one will also benefit yourself at the same time, it's obvious which path would be the better choice.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Rita was too pushy, no doubt. But I would hope that nobody would fault Rita for simply trying to persuade Mashiro to return to her painting. Rita went a bit father than that in two or three of her lines, but the overall attempt at persuasion (raising the possible historical significance of Mashiro's paintings, for example) is perfectly reasonable and fair.

It's not absurd to feel anger at someone or some company for refusing to do something that you know that they're great at, that you would love to see more of, and that you know is profitable for them (so it's not like you're expecting them to commit financial suicide, which would indeed be uncalled for and absurd).

It's not "absurd" in the sense that it's perfectly within the emotional capability of humans to do what Rita did, so it's still natural. However, humans are also naturally capable of acting on emotions that do not necessarily follow the formal rules of reasonable arguments.

It's perfectly natural for someone to want another to make the most out of their talents as well as pursue a career that will allow them to make the most of that talent.
However, for a person to focus on that desire to its extreme can lead to him/her to disregard the other's humanity, even by accident.
Shiina is a human who is capable of more than one form of art and can form goals outside of the world of painting. If Rita disregards that and focuses solely on Shiina's paintings, couldn't the be degrading Shiina into a machine that must do one single thing for efficiency?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The final choice is of course Shiina's. That doesn't mean people don't have a right to have an opinion on what choice she makes, though.


No, Mashiro's friends and family have a right to their opinion. They have a right to disagree with the choices that Mashiro makes.

Whether they have a right or not, it still is perfectly natural for people to disagree with another's actions as well as act on that disgreement.

Whether acting on that desire is right is another story.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If you make a choice that you know will piss off a lot of people, including many of the people close to you, then you shouldn't insist on those people supporting you when it comes to this particular choice. If you do insist on that, then it's you that's dictating to other people how they should live their lives, and not them to you.


Now, to be fair to Mashiro, I can understand why she said "stupid Sorata" in this episode.

This is how I think Mashiro sees it: "I supported you, Sorata, in pursuing your dream to become a game developer, so why are you now not supporting me in my dream to write manga? That's not fair, stupid Sorata."

I don't think Shiina's disappointment in Sorata is necessarily what you think.

Consider another possibility: Sorata is doing exactly what Rita did, and overlooked Shiina's personal feelings on the subject by being too distracted on the image as the brilliant painter, which is why Shiina called him "stupid Sorata."

It may not be so much that Shiina didn't get a return on her investment in Sorata as it is that Sorata was too dense and failed to understand the feelings Shiina wanted to convey. The failure of indirect communication would be a much deeper blow to an artist like Shiina than notion of being betrayed by a fan. She left her fans before.

[Itlandm]

Two more things. One, a thing dying people tend to regret is the dreams they did not follow. This may of course be because they have already finished regretting the dreams they DID follow. ^_^ But even so, worth a thought.

Also, I know that it can hurt a girl a lot when a boy she likes tells her to make a career choice that is different from what she really wants in her heart. I know this because I was that stupid boy years ago. She said nothing to me, but someone from her family told me that she was crying. I wish she had just come out and said "Itland no baka" because that was the truth, and it had been less painful for both of us. So thumbs up to Shiina for that.

(Of course, there is also the possibility that she thinks he is a baka for rooming with another girl. Anyway, he needs to repent, and quickly.)

[Skyfall]

I find myself incredibly unsympathetic to the argument that Mashiro's ultimate decision must take in to account what other people supposedly want her to do. And by "other people" I don't mean those close to her, the ones she actually interacts with and those who would ultimately care about her well-being and personal happiness (and I'm not yet convinced that Rita actually does). You simply don't devote your life to the nameless masses that don't really know a thing about you, nor care about you past the satisfaction they can derive from your work. Unless said process and feeling of being appreciated by the number is what drives you in the first place.

Of course that's not saying she can't do it, if that's what makes her happy, but that's not a decision that can be forced on her. Indeed, if someone is being selfish here, then those would be the fans for thinking it's Mashiro's duty to fulfill their expectations and satisfy their craving for fine art. In the end it's her life and her happiness, and random people don't get more of a say in it than any random person walking up to you on the street does, saying you should do X because that makes them happy. That's entitlement and selfishness at the finest.

Mashiro is neither an object to exploit nor a resource to be milked, she has the same right to choose what she wants to do with her life as anyone else does. Yes, her art has the potential to awe many and perhaps even leave a mark on history, but that's Mashiro's path to choose. Or not, if she doesn't feel it might be the best one for her. But saying that she must do so for the sake of others, is just a dishonest attempt at coercion, which is basically what Rita is doing by dragging Sorata in to this mess. Persuading Mashiro with the nameless masses at stake didn't quite work (and neither should it), so she went for someone closer to her.

That's not to say people don't have a right to their opinion on what Mashiro should be doing (according to their own wants and desires), but that's not to say that their opinion should be the deciding part when it comes to Mashiro setting her own life goals. And if said goals include expanding her horizons by branching out in to other fields, critically acclaimed or not, no one really is in a position to say much, least of all random fans from around the globe. No, you aren't entitled to endless commitment from your favorite game designer, for example, just because of fawning over it. To expect otherwise is incredibly selfish on part of the fans ... but then again selfishness is something people excel at, so Rita's behavior isn't that unexpected.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

On the contrary, if a person goes through life caring for others without considering how his actions would affect himself, that would be self-destructive altruism.

Why begin this with "on the contrary"? There's nothing I wrote that is incompatible with what you just wrote here.

Me disagreeing with a selfish extreme doesn't mean I'm advocating for a selfless extreme. We're not limited to a choice between polar opposites here. So unless you're advocating for a selfish extreme (if so, please make that clear now), then it's puzzling why you'd use the words "on the contrary".

We are human, not gods. There must be a balance between giving and taking.

Precisely my point. And a person who doesn't care one iota about other people is clearly not balanced in such a way. Do you disagree?

If a person continues to give while taking nothing, (s)he will eventually have nothing left to give.

If a person continues to take while giving nothing, it'll make the world a worse place.

There has got to be something to be taken and gained to continue giving later.

In Shiina's case about returning to painting, there needs to be something more beneficial to her specificially than just pleasing her fans or conforming to her past achievements. If Rita isn't considering how returning to painting will benefit Shiina personally along with the artistic community, then yes, Rita is kind of wrong in a way.

Being someone of historical significance strikes me as personally beneficial. It's not something that everybody cares about, or even dreams about, of course, but some people do. In politics, you often hear about major politicians caring about their "legacy", and about wanting to be remembered well in the history books. About wanting to "leave their mark" on the world.

Rita emphasized the possible historical significance of Shiina's paintings, which I think ties into this.

Sure, but whether it's worth servicing those fans at her own expense is another story.

It's not like Shiina's career as a mangaka can't benefit others as well. If you have two paths, both that will make an audience happy, but only one will also benefit yourself at the same time, it's obvious which path would be the better choice.

Will Shiina's manga work positively impact as many people, and to as great a degree, as her paintings will? The impression I'm getting from the narrative so far is that this is very doubtful. Again, I go back to my Michael Jordan analogy, which I continue to think is pretty fitting here. Would as many pro sports fans benefit from minor league baseball player Michael Jordan as would benefit from NBA All-Star Michael Jordan?

So I think you're drawing a false, or at least highly presumptuous, equivalency here. It's more complex than what you're making it out to be.

Shiina is a human who is capable of more than one form of art and can form goals outside of the world of painting. If Rita disregards that and focuses solely on Shiina's paintings, couldn't the be degrading Shiina into a machine that must do one single thing for efficiency?

I myself wrote that Rita was too pushy. I don't think that Rita is entirely correct, but I don't think she's entirely wrong either. And I certainly don't see anything rage-worthy in Sorata's words and thoughts in this episode. He naturally doesn't want the world to lose a Picasso just so it can gain a decent mangaka (to be fair, he probably wouldn't want the world to lose an elite mangaka just to gain a decent painter, either).

Whether they have a right or not, it still is perfectly natural for people to disagree with another's actions as well as act on that disgreement.

Which was precisely my point.

I don't think Shiina's disappointment in Sorata is necessarily what you think.

I'm inclined to think it's at least a factor. Could there be more to it? Sure.

Consider another possibility: Sorata is doing exactly what Rita did, and overlooked Shiina's personal feelings on the subject by being too distracted on the image as the brilliant painter, which is why Shiina called him "stupid Sorata."

It may not be so much that Shiina didn't get a return on her investment in Sorata as it is that Sorata was too dense and failed to understand the feelings Shiina wanted to convey.

You don't think there's ever times in life where you have to make hard decisions that you know will hurt someone's feelings? Just because Sorata thinks that Shiina should go back to painting doesn't mean he isn't considering her personal feelings.