Penguin Drum - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

You are responsible for your drinking you are not responsible for what someone else does to you in that state.

I also don't think Ringo is going to need a therapist. Let's be clear she wasn't actually raped. At the most if she remembers what she said she might be a little embarrassed.

But I think people don't understand how date rape drugs work if you think Ringo is responsible for her actions in any way (the way Ringo was talking she was definitely still under the influence of the drug).

But you are responsible for your decision during that state, isn't it?

Obviously i don't think many people will really "understand how date rape drugs work" unless they were victims, or worse the offenders (or experts on the field). Therefore I won't expect that you understand it either.

The problem with going with the internet is, most likely the site is from one of the helpline, and most of the time they provide the more extreme guideline to encourage potential victim to speak out or seek help. The police surely won't base on those categorize to accuse someone for raping (depend on country through)

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

But you are responsible for your decision during that state, isn't it?

... Huh? Normally you should only be responsible for what you do in a drugged state if you willingly and knowingly took the drugs. Ringo took the drug unknowingly because her drink was spiked.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

But you are responsible for your decision during that state, isn't it?

No you are not!

Obviously i don't think many people will really "understand how date rape drugs work" unless they were victims, or worse the offenders (or experts on the field). Therefore I won't expect that you understand it either.

Except there is plenty of stuff written about the subject by experts and victims.

The police surely won't base on those categorize to accuse someone for raping (depend on country through)

Well first of all if you spike someone's drink with the intention of raping them that is a crime.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Tokkan

... Huh? Normally you should only be responsible for what you do in a drugged state if you willingly and knowingly took the drugs. Ringo took the drug unknowingly because her drink was spiked.

We didn't speak on that specifically about Ringo case through.

I think Kirarakim is trying to relate the symptom of "still being affected by the drug" using real guideline to prove that Ringo was still heavily affected by the drug back then. While i am trying to debate that it's not necessary true, and Ringo could be out of her drugged state by the time Yuri finished with the bondage

Edit: are you sure that we are talking about the same thing? Because of course you are responsible for your decision when you are drunk (whether you get on bed with someone, or driving, or creating a brawl)

[Malkuth]

The "I will mess you up" is just a vulgar expression, quite common actually in non-rape hentai, it's not implying any threat or whatever, unless one considers having wild sex threatening.

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

The "I will mess you up" is just a vulgar expression, quite common actually in non-rape hentai, it's not implying any threat or whatever, unless one considers having wild sex threatening.

In case of non-consented sex, of course that's threatening.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

and Ringo could be out of her drugged state by the time Yuri finished with the bondage

Unlikely, since she had already passed out by the time Shouma got there, which was right after Yuri supposedly began to rape her. Meaning that Yuri was going to rape Ringo when the latter was about to pass out. In any case it's still rape since someone unconscious can't give consent.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Unlikely, since she had already passed out by the time Shouma got there, which was right after Yuri supposedly began to rape her. Meaning that Yuri was going to rape Ringo when the latter was about to pass out. In any case it's still rape since someone unconscious can't give consent.

They can give the consent before they are unconscious through, as long as she was not affected by the drug at that point

Too bad that Ikuhara messed up at the detail (if you check out the clock, it actually go back at some point , from 9:50 to 9:42). But if it was actually from 8:50 to 9:42. Then it's one hour from Ringo's first call to when Shouma started to call back (means she has already been "messed up" at that point, hence the "it's too late now"). That along with the dinner assuming around from 7:30 will be more than 3 hours for the drug to wear off. But most is speculation on my part, of course

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

In case of non-consented sex, of course that's threatening.

In case of non-consensual sex, everything is threatening

And that's skipping the main argument of whether Ringo was or not able to give her consent... what is a fact is that she did not resist for whatever reason.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Edit: are you sure that we are talking about the same thing? Because of course you are responsible for your decision when you are drunk (whether you get on bed with someone, or driving, or creating a brawl)

Because rape is a bit more complicated and not as clear cut as those other things. Let me explain.

With drunk driving and a brawl that is all you and only you. With sex there is another party involved who is taking advantage of you. Consent while intoxicated (let's say really drunk, not one or two beers) is not real consent. I am not 100% if I would call it rape under the strictest circumstances (unless someone was purposely giving someone a lot of drinks to get them that intoxicated to take advantage of them). But it's wrong all the same.

Now if you drug someone's drink (as in the case of what Yuri did to Ringo) then the victim is not responsible at all.

I am sorry to derail the topic. This is a sensitive issue. The important thing is in the end Yuri did not rape Ringo. But I will say from Ringo's reactions in my opinion she definitely was still under the influence of the drug. Also for the fact that it was Yuri's decision alone to not go through with what she was going to do to Ringo.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

...

Now if you drug someone's drink (as in the case of what Yuri did to Ringo) then the victim is not responsible at all.

My "what the hell did you expect?!" argument still applies, despite laws and crap that try to wash you off from your responsibility to yourself.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I am sorry to derail the topic. This is a sensitive issue. The important thing is in the end Yuri did not rape Ringo.

No, the important thing is Ringo's motivation, because there are three cases:

• You and Kazu-kun are right, she did not like Yuri and felt violated.
• She didn't mind and Yuri's actions made her realize it, even if most perceive them as forceful.
• She was looking for anyone available to humiliate Shouma.

I obviously lean toward [2] & [3]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But I will say from Ringo's reactions in my opinion she definitely was still under the influence of the drug.

Or she actually wanted to have sex.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Also for the fact that it was Yuri's decision alone to not go through with what she was going to do to Ringo.

Or because of the realization that Ringo can never fill the hole in her heart that Momoka left

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

what is a fact is that she did not resist for whatever reason.

It's hard to resist when you're drugged and bondaged.

[Malkuth]

When unwillingly bound people tend to react physically... A LOT

When drugged, people tend to have also VERY emotional reaction (since you are implying a psychotropic drug).

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

My "what the hell did you expect?!" argument still applies, despite laws and crap that try to wash you off from your responsibility to yourself.

Huh? I am a total loss at how you can think someone whose drink was drugged without their knowledge is in anyway responsible?

When drugged, people tend to have also VERY emotional reaction (since you are implying a psychotropic drug).

No we are implying a date drug which is used to facilitate rape. Nothing says that you have a VERY emotional reaction with these type of drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug

When unwillingly bound people tend to react physically... A LOT

Not when they are drugged they don't!

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

When unwillingly bound people tend to react physically... A LOT

Unless they drugged.

[Sol Falling]

lol, let's lay out three things:

1. Yuri intended to rape Ringo
2. due to the influence of the drug, Ringo didn't mind
3. due to knowing that even if she didn't mind, being raped was not a good thing generally, Ringo decided to blame Shouma and his rejection of her (as the reason she didn't mind falling under the influence of the drug).

2. and 3. are where Ringo's dialogue during the phone call came from. I'd say Yuri probably let the phone call happen in order to make Ringo more willing about it and ramp up the raunchy enjoyment factor for both of them ('mess you up', 'turn my insides out that even I haven't seen before', etc. rawr, lol).

Had Yuri gone through with the rape, I think that even after Ringo came out of the drug's influence, she would have decided that a sexual relationship with Yuri was the only thing that could make her happy anymore and decided to stick with her. As it is, due to Yuri stopping, I think Ringo simply fell asleep from the drug's pleasant feelings. In the morning, when she wakes up, I think Ringo's first priority will be to determine, due to Shouma's actions last night, what she and Shouma really mean to each other.

Point being? Yuri's yuri skills are good enough that in the absence of being able to obtain real love, Ringo would've been satisfied to be with her. However, since real love is coming into play for both Ringo and Yuri, the outcome will be something different.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Huh? I am a total loss at how you can think someone whose drink was drugged without their knowledge is in anyway responsible?

Responsible to themselves for trusting unconditionally a person that meticulously plans to violate them.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

No we are implying a date drug which is used to facilitate rape. Nothing says that you have a VERY emotional reaction with these type of drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug

The article mentions alchohol and sleeping pills, and Ringo's reactions after she wakes up indicate clearly that she did not feel raped, forced or whatever.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Not when they are drugged they don't!

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Unless they drugged.

So she off camera Yuri used also sedatives... interesting... please go on, it's a absurd show (in a good sense) but your arguments indicate that Ringo is a horse or something to survive at her age, weight, tolerance all that, which IMHO are worse than getting raped, because she will soon be waving her liver goodbye

[christinemarie]

After fifteen episodes...some questions before have become clear.
1. Tabuki's fate changed. (He supposed to die in that terrorist explosion.)
2. Momoka's sister fate changed.

Spoiler for expected result:

(She supposed to be non-existent as the mother having health issues during pregnancy.)

3. Rabbit's fate changed. (Bounded to die but was saved by Momoka. It seems Momoka suffered a burn or she bled is from her finger is not yet clear.)
4. Yuri's fate changed. (She supposed to die from the final physical brutality from her father in that tower using chisels or rather kill herself as she mentioned to Momoka and become a swan.)

This episode explains everything what I wanted to know about that diary and Momoka and connects those questions in my mind from previous episodes.

Unanswered questions
What's the deal with Maria and Himari?
How the penguins exists like that?
Why there are lot of people knew about the power of the diary, since those penguins seems involved is that belong to them?
Is that diary capable of some fate change written years, days, before the fate needs to be changed would occur?

In the end, it seems Yuri is a nice person after all, I thought this anime would be dropped from my watch list if that cliffhanger from episode 14 isn't prevented.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by christinemarie

Unanswered questions
What's the deal with Maria and Himari?

Is it Maria, not Mario... and let me add, assuming it was he/she on the aquarium in Himari's flashback, does that mean that the penguin cap stops aging?

Originally Posted by christinemarie

How the penguins exists like that?

I will go by the same mechanism that a slingshot causes selective Kanba-gigolo amnesia, or iron capsules cure death

Originally Posted by christinemarie

Why there are lot of people knew about the power of the diary, since those penguins seems involved is that belong to them?

You also forgetting the librarian's shouta/rabbits

Originally Posted by christinemarie

Is that diary capable of some fate change written years, days, before the fate needs to be changed would occur?

Yes, aside from the power to switch (NOT change) fate, it has the uncanny power of writting down fateful events before they occur.

Originally Posted by christinemarie

In the end, it seems Yuri is a nice person after all, I thought this anime would be dropped from my watch list if that cliffhanger from episode 14 isn't prevented.

Nice? OK didn't rape Ringo for whatever reason, becomes nice, while her selfish motivation is completely ignored... come on

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Had Yuri gone through with the rape, I think that even after Ringo came out of the drug's influence, she would have decided that a sexual relationship with Yuri was the only thing that could make her happy anymore and decided to stick with her.

That reminds me of Anthy and Akio in the Utena movie. And as Enokido explains in the Utena movie files, that "happiness" is not "for real". Had this happened with Ringo, it would have signaled her falling into darkness.

Long story short, this wouldn't have been depicted positively, at all, and would have happened only if Ikuhara wanted Ringo's story to take a tragic turn.