AnimeSuki Forums

Guardian Enzo · 2013-09-04, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy

Then I will cordially agree to disagree.

I for one was happy to look back at all the little details that were in the story that I never noticed. It seems to be the general consensus of the interwebz that it was not so great so w/e I'll be on the outside on this one.

I have to ask though, what is it exactly you think Togashi should have done in this situation? If the pen is in your hand how does the story look different? What was it you wanted Killua to do in order to overcome his "fear"?

It's not complicated - overcome it. The groundwork had been laid, his mental struggle beautifully paid out. I think Togashi - brilliant as he is - could easily have portrayed both how this situation made Killua more afraid than ever, but how his love for Gon forced him to act in spite of his fear because it was even more powerful. Then, afterwards, an acknowledgement from Killua that he'd taken only one small step on a long journey.

As it was - ripping the needle out, smiling like a happy baby and finishing Rammot far too easily - for me undercut some of the legitimacy of Killua's journey. I didn't want to see it resolved by his effectively throwing a light-switch.

TooPurePureBoy · 2013-09-04, 20:46

Ah. I see now where we are at an impasse. You and I had differing expectations for that whole scenario. This whole fear thing was a personal issue of Killua's in my opinion. The whole Gon/Killua bromance that we all love really had nothing to do with this part of Killua's development as a Hunter. I should say other than being a catalyst for Killua to fight the fear.

As a loner Killua would never have found a reason to remove the needle and it probably would have remained there until Illumi (this would never happen) deemed him capable of taking care of himself. The problem is, Illumi doesn't want to admit it, but Killua would have been completely capable a long time ago if the needle wasn't there. Illumi (through a twisted love as bisky said) actually was stunting and holding back Killua's true ability. I can understand that that kinda comes off a little DBZ but it's not all that bad. He's not suddenly "over 9000" because of removing the needle. He has simply gained access to another part of himself that was being held back by the needle. A calmer more confident part of himself. Killua's fear ended up being a family problem and I'm totally cool with that.

I also think your position is completely valid. I just want to get this straight though. You wanted Killua to overcome his fear through the power of "love"? Gradually?

Thanks for answering.

Dengar · 2013-09-04, 20:48

Obviously the needle wasn't just placed to protect Killua, but also to prevent him from going soft. It would ensure that he'd do anything to survive including betraying his friends. Which Illumi thinks are unnecessary anyway.

TooPurePureBoy · 2013-09-04, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

Obviously the needle wasn't just placed to protect Killua, but also to prevent him from going soft. It would ensure that he'd do anything to survive including betraying his friends. Which Illumi thinks are unnecessary anyway.

That is also true. Killua is much less self hating with the needle gone. All of those things that were making him hate himself all this time has been lifted like a weight off his shoulders.

kakakka · 2013-09-05, 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's not complicated - overcome it. The groundwork had been laid, his mental struggle beautifully paid out. I think Togashi - brilliant as he is - could easily have portrayed both how this situation made Killua more afraid than ever, but how his love for Gon forced him to act in spite of his fear because it was even more powerful...

We already have that scene. That encounter with Pitou. Killua was forced into a situation where Gon's safety was in line while he have his fear.

For me, I think Rammot scene wouldn't work much as that "turning his fear around" scene in psychological way. Because to me, I believe that it's in really tough situation that we rely mostly on what is natural/integrated to us. It's possible to try, but I can only imagine the stress it would do on Killua, and that is not an option in this situation. So, Killua might try to fight, but it will end up desperate just like that with Shoot.

For me the problem in the scene is misdirection. In a story point of view, Killua eventually breaking free of his curse would just be as plausible, but the needle just throws this off. It comes out as if all of Killua's problems was the needle. But the other note, it is Illumi's needle, which just showed how twisted the Zoldyk(?) family in keeping Killua in check and off the line. Maybe we'll see Illumi in the future?

Pinkman · 2013-09-05, 16:27

Yo.
I think the problem is that most people don't even understand what happened.

They think there was no psychological impact and this was all pure nen needle.
No. It wasn't some literal manifestation, and no it wasn't all 100% nen, the needle doesn't stop him or force him to run, the needle just brings illumi back, WITH his psychology bullshit, so that when Killua wanders off and idk maybe meet someone like Gon, he'd still be bound and reminded of his teachings. The whole development that's been happening for the 94 episodes shows it was psychological, and Killua was already fighting it since episode 50, and in his fight against shoot, it clearly showed that Killua wasn't forcibly stopped or something, Illumi just kept drilling it in how he's not sure of victory and should run because he's not taught to face the enemy head on as an assassin and he' should withdraw if he's not confident.

Using the needle alone is a cop out,
Using psychology alone is completely over-the-top and unrealistic.
Using a mix of both, or a way to have Nen mess up the psychology, is the way to go.

Imagine how crappy would it be if Gon was scared shitless in the hunter exam JUST by hisoka's rape face alone and not nen?
Or if they were just paralyzed by fear alone when he stopped them from entering Heaven's Arena?

Dextro · 2013-09-05, 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's not complicated - overcome it. The groundwork had been laid, his mental struggle beautifully paid out. I think Togashi - brilliant as he is - could easily have portrayed both how this situation made Killua more afraid than ever, but how his love for Gon forced him to act in spite of his fear because it was even more powerful. Then, afterwards, an acknowledgement from Killua that he'd taken only one small step on a long journey.

As it was - ripping the needle out, smiling like a happy baby and finishing Rammot far too easily - for me undercut some of the legitimacy of Killua's journey. I didn't want to see it resolved by his effectively throwing a light-switch.

I was actually afraid that the show was heading into that particular scenario of Killua overcoming his fear up until the point and I was actually finding it hard to believe that Togashi would use such a clichéd plot.

As it stands I feel that the hidden needle was a better way to get out of the corner where Togashi wrote himself into with the insane fear Killua had been showing.

Dengar · 2013-09-06, 03:05

The needle was also an easy way to prevent Killua from having to go through years of extensive therapy.

Toto y Moi · 2013-09-06, 09:26

See Killua's action's as symbolism for him destroying his underlying psychological issue, which is his tendency to run away from everything that frightens him.

Killua is a runaway from the get-go. From the beginnning, we encounter a boy who runs away from home in order to escape the pressures (perhaps this word isn't strong enough) of his family. He runs away whenever he encounters someone stronger. And though he's attempted to face this fear, he's never fully confronted it until now.

Illumi is a Manipulator, and I don't think that it's any coincidence that most of the Zoldyck family is comprised of Manipulators. As we saw at the end of the Hunter Exam arc and the Zoldyck family arc, they are clearly intent on controlling Killua's actions. He is the heir apparent. The survival of the family's ideology, legacy, and business is dependent on Killua's subscription to their ideals. Killua is an individualist, which is appreciated by his father and grandfather. However, it is simultaneously dangerous (as illustrated by Illumi, so fearful of the possibility of Killua having friends changing his behavior that the man threatens to kill a twelve-year-old boy to protect his family's interests).

This episode has Killua fighting against the two most important things in his life--his family and his best friend, Gon. Gon gives Killua the courage to be the person he has always wanted to be. Gon, despite being a weakling, stands up and fights for what he believes in without considering the consequences to himself. Gon is courageous and far braver than Killua, as well as optimistic. The light to the darkness within Killua.

Killua has an extremely hard time reconciling which path to take--Zoldyck or Gon--and this marks a literal turning point in the path of the character. Killua has only two options in his battle with Rammot: he may leave Gon to die and prove Illumi/the Zoldyck family right in their assessment of Killua's emotions, or he may rebel against everything his family stands for and fight against almost certain death for someone who isn't family.

As I said before, Killua ripping a needle out of his head is physical symbolism for him mentally breaking free from the grasp of his family. He chose Gon. Killua denied the path of being a "passionless puppet of darkness," as he was raised. His mental breakthrough comes with a physical action, sure, but I saw the change as being the most important part. Killua is literally ripping out the ideologies of his family, pumped into him through years of manipulative treatment (and physically reinforced into an aura-charged needle).

MCAL · 2013-09-06, 16:01

And I feel I should add that I don't believe taking away the needle has removed the problem completely. This I admit is more a guess than anything else, but I have faith in Togashi's ability as a writer that my guess will bear some fruit. And in a satisfying matter.

As for the whole Palm thing... well I guess that is a matter of subjectivity. I found it completely hilarious though.

EDIT: Basically what I feel Togashi is going for is the source of the problem is gone, but not the problem itself.

noktown · 2013-09-07, 17:50

Frankly,I don't see why everyone is so emotional about the needle ?I actually found it strange that Killua at first turned out to be a coward,only to be relieved that it was actually because of his brother.He was taught to kill,you can't kill without taking a risk,look at the Zoldyks during the Spiders arc,one of them was ready to give up his life and the other was ready to kill his own father.They needed Killua alive,since he was always running away from home,so that's why the needle was planted.

Also,why would he be a coward ?He has no fear of pain,he was tortured as a kid in so many ways that he can endure freaking lightning shock.He is having a nap when his brother is beating the crap out of him,he's immune to poisons.

I mean there's nothing physically that could be done to scare him,which is the main source of fear for ordinary people,and yet he was scared as shit,it was definitely wrong.

MCAL · 2013-09-07, 23:16

Well, anyone not content with last episode should find this episode much more to their liking.

And a return of everyone's favorite thieves next episode. You know, to make the wait for next episode worse.

EDIT: Oh and Gon: "Sorry Morel-san! I was really about to kill you!"

Gan_HOPE326 · 2013-09-08, 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by noktown

I mean there's nothing physically that could be done to scare him,which is the main source of fear for ordinary people,and yet he was scared as shit,it was definitely wrong.

I'm pretty sure there's plenty of Nen user our there who could kick the crap out of him as soon as he lets the guard down even for a split second (and maybe even if he doesn't). Being assigned to Neferpitou doesn't mean he's nearly as strong as him/her. It's legitimate for him to be afraid of such enemies... of course, like Biscuit says, it's wrong instead to always consider them at their best possible shape. Sometimes you can take advantage of other conditions, and that factors in too. And that was part the work of his upbringing, part of the needle. Well, next to Gon, he'll still be the level-headed, rational one. Gon is truly a paragon of recklessness

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCAL

Well, anyone not content with last episode should find this episode much more to their liking.

And a return of everyone's favorite thieves next episode. You know, to make the wait for next episode worse.

EDIT: Oh and Gon: "Sorry Morel-san! I was really about to kill you!"

Do you think the Spiders are going to be around only for an episode or at least two?

[snip]

Dengar · 2013-09-08, 03:27

I have said this a long time ago:

Killua may be the scary one, but Gon is the dangerous one. For the love of God and all that is Holy, do. not. make. him. angry. He will murder you.

Guardian Enzo · 2013-09-08, 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

I have said this a long time ago:

Killua may be the scary one, but Gon is the dangerous one. For the love of God and all that is Holy, do. not. make. him. angry. He will murder you.

Right after he hugs you.

Gon is a wonderful display in contrasts, really, as witness the way he knowingly and fecklessly manipulates Palm without a hint of malice or ill-intent. He's incredibly straightforward and pure, in his way, and that childlike purity is both the source of his strength and his greatest vulnerability.

Gan_HOPE326 · 2013-09-08, 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

I have said this a long time ago:

Killua may be the scary one, but Gon is the dangerous one. For the love of God and all that is Holy, do. not. make. him. angry. He will murder you.

That. He's like a slightly more amoral version of a blend of kid Goku and Luffy (but actually has more wits than either of them). In a sense, in the D&D alignment scheme, he's a True Neutral. He doesn't care too much for rules but isn't a purveyor of chaos; he has good ideals but they're ultimately centred around him and the people he cares for; and if he wants something, well, he'll do whatever it takes to get it, without caring in the slightest about the morality of what he's doing. Scary.

-Sho- · 2013-09-08, 10:07

I don't think they'll really fight there cuz imo Royal Guard are still way stronger than KilluaxGon , something unexpected will happen , or else the arc is ending soon...

SHINOBI-03 · 2013-09-08, 10:56

-EPISODE 95-

Spoiler for Part 1:

---------------

Spoiler for Part 2:

Upscaled · 2013-09-08, 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHINOBI-03

-EPISODE 95-

Spoiler for Gon's mental image:

Interesting how in those few seconds, the team behind this episode shows the team behind episode 85 how it should have been done:

Spoiler:

Dengar · 2013-09-08, 11:28

That republic of East Gorteau is totally not a reference to any country that exists in real life.

2013-09-04, 20:46	Link #3542
TooPurePureBoy Socially Inept Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Retracing my steps.....	Ah. I see now where we are at an impasse. You and I had differing expectations for that whole scenario. This whole fear thing was a personal issue of Killua's in my opinion. The whole Gon/Killua bromance that we all love really had nothing to do with this part of Killua's development as a Hunter. I should say other than being a catalyst for Killua to fight the fear. As a loner Killua would never have found a reason to remove the needle and it probably would have remained there until Illumi (this would never happen) deemed him capable of taking care of himself. The problem is, Illumi doesn't want to admit it, but Killua would have been completely capable a long time ago if the needle wasn't there. Illumi (through a twisted love as bisky said) actually was stunting and holding back Killua's true ability. I can understand that that kinda comes off a little DBZ but it's not all that bad. He's not suddenly "over 9000" because of removing the needle. He has simply gained access to another part of himself that was being held back by the needle. A calmer more confident part of himself. Killua's fear ended up being a family problem and I'm totally cool with that. I also think your position is completely valid. I just want to get this straight though. You wanted Killua to overcome his fear through the power of "love"? Gradually? Thanks for answering. __________________ "Do what I do in every friendship and relationship, give 5%" - Ron Bennington

2013-09-06, 16:01	Link #3550
MCAL Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012	And I feel I should add that I don't believe taking away the needle has removed the problem completely. This I admit is more a guess than anything else, but I have faith in Togashi's ability as a writer that my guess will bear some fruit. And in a satisfying matter. As for the whole Palm thing... well I guess that is a matter of subjectivity. I found it completely hilarious though. EDIT: Basically what I feel Togashi is going for is the source of the problem is gone, but not the problem itself. Last edited by MCAL; 2013-09-07 at 16:25.

2013-09-07, 23:16	Link #3552
MCAL Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012	Well, anyone not content with last episode should find this episode much more to their liking. And a return of everyone's favorite thieves next episode. You know, to make the wait for next episode worse. EDIT: Oh and Gon: "Sorry Morel-san! I was really about to kill you!" Last edited by MCAL; 2013-09-07 at 23:54.

2013-09-08, 10:56	Link #3558
SHINOBI-03 Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	*-EPISODE 95-* Spoiler for Part 1: Manga: Chapter 221, 222, 223 Spoiler for Cheetu got the moves: Spoiler for Cheetu's close-up: There are times when I prefer Togashi's black eyes over the colored ones Spoiler for Oh no...: Naruto jokes! Make 'em stop!! Spoiler for You've gotta be kidding me!: Togashi pulled a Tom & Jerry in a HxH fight! Spoiler for See Cheetu Run!: --- Spoiler for The unholy reunion: --------------- Spoiler for Part 2: Spoiler for This shot I really liked: It's as if he's crying for what he's seeing in front of him Spoiler for Gon's beat up: Spoiler for And Gon didn't even get to hug his own father: Spoiler for The puppeteer: Spoiler for Gon decides his next target: --- Spoiler for So politician: Spoiler for Dat cameo: Spoiler for Some people get six packs: Morel got eight! Spoiler for Gon's mental image: The earth cracking and flying tiles are all added effects to the anime Spoiler for The mission: --------------- Nice episode with nice animation and soundtracks 8.5/10

2013-09-08, 11:28	Link #3560
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	That republic of East Gorteau is totally not a reference to any country that exists in real life. Last edited by Dengar; 2013-09-08 at 15:26.

2013-09-04, 20:48	Link #3543
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	Obviously the needle wasn't just placed to protect Killua, but also to prevent him from going soft. It would ensure that he'd do anything to survive including betraying his friends. Which Illumi thinks are unnecessary anyway.

2013-09-05, 16:27	Link #3546
Pinkman Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2013	Yo. I think the problem is that most people don't even understand what happened. They think there was no psychological impact and this was all pure nen needle. No. It wasn't some literal manifestation, and no it wasn't all 100% nen, the needle doesn't stop him or force him to run, the needle just brings illumi back, WITH his psychology bullshit, so that when Killua wanders off and idk maybe meet someone like Gon, he'd still be bound and reminded of his teachings. The whole development that's been happening for the 94 episodes shows it was psychological, and Killua was already fighting it since episode 50, and in his fight against shoot, it clearly showed that Killua wasn't forcibly stopped or something, Illumi just kept drilling it in how he's not sure of victory and should run because he's not taught to face the enemy head on as an assassin and he' should withdraw if he's not confident. Using the needle alone is a cop out, Using psychology alone is completely over-the-top and unrealistic. Using a mix of both, or a way to have Nen mess up the psychology, is the way to go. Imagine how crappy would it be if Gon was scared shitless in the hunter exam JUST by hisoka's rape face alone and not nen? Or if they were just paralyzed by fear alone when he stopped them from entering Heaven's Arena?

2013-09-06, 03:05	Link #3548
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	The needle was also an easy way to prevent Killua from having to go through years of extensive therapy.

2013-09-06, 09:26	Link #3549
Toto y Moi Amor Fati Join Date: Oct 2011	See Killua's action's as symbolism for him destroying his underlying psychological issue, which is his tendency to run away from everything that frightens him. Killua is a runaway from the get-go. From the beginnning, we encounter a boy who runs away from home in order to escape the pressures (perhaps this word isn't strong enough) of his family. He runs away whenever he encounters someone stronger. And though he's attempted to face this fear, he's never fully confronted it until now. Illumi is a Manipulator, and I don't think that it's any coincidence that most of the Zoldyck family is comprised of Manipulators. As we saw at the end of the Hunter Exam arc and the Zoldyck family arc, they are clearly intent on controlling Killua's actions. He is the heir apparent. The survival of the family's ideology, legacy, and business is dependent on Killua's subscription to their ideals. Killua is an individualist, which is appreciated by his father and grandfather. However, it is simultaneously dangerous (as illustrated by Illumi, so fearful of the possibility of Killua having friends changing his behavior that the man threatens to kill a twelve-year-old boy to protect his family's interests). This episode has Killua fighting against the two most important things in his life--his family and his best friend, Gon. Gon gives Killua the courage to be the person he has always wanted to be. Gon, despite being a weakling, stands up and fights for what he believes in without considering the consequences to himself. Gon is courageous and far braver than Killua, as well as optimistic. The light to the darkness within Killua. Killua has an extremely hard time reconciling which path to take--Zoldyck or Gon--and this marks a literal turning point in the path of the character. Killua has only two options in his battle with Rammot: he may leave Gon to die and prove Illumi/the Zoldyck family right in their assessment of Killua's emotions, or he may rebel against everything his family stands for and fight against almost certain death for someone who isn't family. As I said before, Killua ripping a needle out of his head is physical symbolism for him mentally breaking free from the grasp of his family. He chose Gon. Killua denied the path of being a "passionless puppet of darkness," as he was raised. His mental breakthrough comes with a physical action, sure, but I saw the change as being the most important part. Killua is literally ripping out the ideologies of his family, pumped into him through years of manipulative treatment (and physically reinforced into an aura-charged needle).

2013-09-07, 17:50	Link #3551
noktown Senior Member Join Date: May 2006	Frankly,I don't see why everyone is so emotional about the needle ?I actually found it strange that Killua at first turned out to be a coward,only to be relieved that it was actually because of his brother.He was taught to kill,you can't kill without taking a risk,look at the Zoldyks during the Spiders arc,one of them was ready to give up his life and the other was ready to kill his own father.They needed Killua alive,since he was always running away from home,so that's why the needle was planted. Also,why would he be a coward ?He has no fear of pain,he was tortured as a kid in so many ways that he can endure freaking lightning shock.He is having a nap when his brother is beating the crap out of him,he's immune to poisons. I mean there's nothing physically that could be done to scare him,which is the main source of fear for ordinary people,and yet he was scared as shit,it was definitely wrong.

2013-09-08, 03:27	Link #3554
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	I have said this a long time ago: Killua may be the scary one, but Gon is the dangerous one. For the love of God and all that is Holy, do. not. make. him. angry. He will murder you.

2013-09-08, 10:07	Link #3557
-Sho- ~Omedetô~ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Somewhere between heaven and hell !	I don't think they'll really fight there cuz imo Royal Guard are still way stronger than KilluaxGon , something unexpected will happen , or else the arc is ending soon...