[Manga] Chapter 262 Discussion

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Naive

I know Ishida specifically wasn't angry about that, but I still think it's quite a ruthless action. And even the fact that the Shinigami didn't save his grandfather says something about the Society itself and how it treats others.





I agree he's a sick twisted freak, but he still found a top research position in SS. Not only that, even after the SS arc, he's still a captain as far as we know, even after killing his squad. So, yes Mayuri's sick and twisted, but he's working in a society that doesn't punish him for that. Now we can ask the question, is keeping Mayuri an unfortunate but required decision because of his technological skills? I don't know the answer but clearly he still has value to SS.

I'm just saying that SS can be quite ruthless if necessary as a whole, and people like Mayuri can exist because SS allows them to exist.

I'm pretty sure the Quincy genocide is far from SS proudest moments but look at it this way the Quincys were already in genocide mode vs hollows and when they destory a hollow they destroy at least one and possably more souls for good, I belive there was an atempt at a diplomadic solution which failed resualting in the shinagami killing them which would cause them to end up in SS where they would be reborn. Remember to the shinigami human death isn't a huge deal, all it is is a relocation of where you live. If the reverse is also true then Mayuri's is a little less of a demon then he has been protrayed, not much but a little.

The Shinigami didn't save his grandfather because Mayuri had bribed the shinigami on duty to show up late so he could get a research subject. Which leads us back to Mayuri is a twisted freak. Come to think of it I can't think of anyone that likes Mayuri even in the omake, well maybe his daughter might love him but I don't think she realy likes him.

[Naive]

Originally Posted by kagato3

I'm pretty sure the Quincy genocide is far from SS proudest moments but look at it this way the Quincys were already in genocide mode vs hollows and when they destory a hollow they destroy at least one and possably more souls for good, I belive there was an atempt at a diplomadic solution which failed resualting in the shinagami killing them which would cause them to end up in SS where they would be reborn. Remember to the shinigami human death isn't a huge deal, all it is is a relocation of where you live. If the reverse is also true then Mayuri's is a little less of a demon then he has been protrayed, not much but a little.

We don't know the circumstances surrounding the genocide of the Quincys and maybe it was a necessary evil or maybe it was disproportional action to the Quincy issue. But, my point was that SS can commit evil acts when they feel it's justified and are very self-righteous in a sense. Not to mention the way the afterlife is structured, it only gives value to those who have spiritual power, so they don't treat all souls as equals. Shinigami aren't angels, the same way SS isn't heaven, so I'm willing to say that Shinigami can be evil just as much as humans can be.

And killing a life is still killing a life. They may have "saved" the souls of Quincy population in the process, but they still destroyed the Quincy population because there are no people who possess Quincy powers. I guess if anything you could compare it to forced conversion And Shinigami know that death is a natural part of life, but life on Earth is still equally important. It'd be like Shinigami not mourning their fellow Shinigami because their death means reincarnation and relocation. But people do mourn, Byakuya for Hisana, Rukia for Kaien...

The Shinigami didn't save his grandfather because Mayuri had bribed the shinigami on duty to show up late so he could get a research subject. Which leads us back to Mayuri is a twisted freak. Come to think of it I can't think of anyone that likes Mayuri even in the omake, well maybe his daughter might love him but I don't think she realy likes him.

But that's my point, Mayuri may have bribed the shinigami on duty, but those shinigami didn't think much of Quincys in the first place to accept the bribe. I think both those shinigami on duty and Mayuri are equally responsible for what happened to Ishida's grandfather. And Mayuri is sick and twisted but SS still keeps him in action and as a captain, even after knowing what he did to his own members, so what does that say about SS? They keep him in a position of power which allows him to commit twisted acts.

On a sidenote

Spoiler for 263:

From early spoiler translations it looks quite possible to be Kaien, even though he attacked Rukia at the end, he said "She'd improved." It's still too early to confirm but I really think Kaien's made a return.

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Kenpachi was not non-negotiable. He was acting out of the boundaries of the rules set for him. If he were to be non-negotiable, how would he make Ichigo as a friend, and take Ichigo's friends with him? Renji was obviously negotiable, if that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have changed the side he is in. If he had known what would have happened to Rukia, he wouldn't have wasted a single moment to try to save her. And, Byakuya would have easily finished Ichigo, the moment he decided that, instead of listening to Rukia, if he were to be non-negotiable.

now go check 263 for yourself, see if anyone dies

[striderm]

Spoiler for 263:

He explains how he got his body back. He seems two-sided, I like how that was used too.

[Naive]

Spoiler for 263:

It's been confirmed, it really is Kaien-dono! He back and he remembers everything and he's such a carefree dork, the spoiler scans show him making all these funny faces. And not only that, he has a double personality, so he very well can be evil because of the shinigami-hollow blend. This is going to be such an interesting arc, I want to see an ice fight versus ice/water fight, Shirayuki vs. Nejibana.

And Chad is alive and I'm glad.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Spoiler for 263:

Couple of other details. Arroniro/Kaien appears to talk to Rukia about his hollow possession. It looks like Chad was put down for good (not dead, but defeated). Noitora claims to be the strongest of the Espada but doesn't reveal his actual ranking. Most, interestingly This chapter introduces a new character known as Telsa who appears to be yet another new arrancar. He can best be described as modeled after a gentlemen pirate since he wears an eyepatch and his zanpakutou has a guard similar to a pirate's cutlass (unknown whether this is its released form). He seems stronger than a Privaron (he stops an attack by Chad's left arm with his zanpakuto) but refers to Noitora as if he were a much higher ranking arrancar. Arroniro ends up attacking Rukia.

here are some spoiler images from the chapter

<scans deleted by a moderator>

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by hdx514

THEY BECAME NEGOTIABLE ONCE THEY'RE BESTED that's the WHOLE POINT of my post.

and ulquiorra could have finished ichigo, instead he disproves both yammi and noitora's actions
aizen could have send his espada to wipe out the protagonists, instead he told them to stay put
noitora could have killed chad on the spot. yet.. well, we'll see soon enough.
no.9 espada could have finished rukia on the spot, yet...

Who are bested? The Ichigo side or the other side? And, what is the relationship between negotiation and Aizen not acting harshly (or acting based on a plan making Ichigo and the others face opponents starting from weaker and going to stronger) or Ulquiorra not acting to finish Ichigo (when he couldn't have done so, with two Captains being there and by possibly Ichigo's hollow side taking control once again)?

And, it still doesn't change the fact that bad act to kill and good act to stop. Also, normally what do you think if a bad person do not finish his opponent? Plot based attempt. However, for the good guy do you consider the same as a plot-based unnatural modification or consider it as normal?

one man's meat is another man's poison. there's no absolute good or innocent in this world. killing an innocent child = saving thousands of innocent livestock. oh yes, bleach involves different species, the shinigamis massacred all the quincies, how's that? the shinigamis "kill" hollows, just like humans kill animals. is a man-eating crocodile absolutely evil? no. is a croc hunter pure good? no. also in bleach, the souls gets circulated, making the boundary between good and evil even more vague. it's just a different species with a different perspective.

Shinigami has one purpose, to protect the balance of the (human) world, or something similar. Do you really think the hollows or quincies have a similar purpose? For the sake of satisfying their own *personal* needs, they do not mind destroying the world...That to me draws the line between good and evil...And, hollows definitely belong to the evil line.

you don't know aizen's true objective. you don't know if what aizen does will completely disrupt the balance of souls. tousen believes his path is the one with least bloodshed. gin followed aizen dispite his feelings for matsumoto. until we understand their reasons, we're in no position to pass judgements.

Aizen is going to use maybe millions of souls just for the sake of achieving his own *personal satisfaction*.

If the world would be a peaceful place by reaching the king chair of the soul world, I am sure the king with the good intentions would have done that long time ago. Aizen is not the only intelligent person out there, who could have thought the same thing. It is obvious that whatever he plans to do, it is definitely placed along a highly dysfunctional path.

Also, Tousen is an untrustful person, and I don't give a damn about his thoughts or words. I am not saying what he said is incorrect, it is possible that what Tousen said will become true by the end of the next 1 million years period of the human world. And, that doesn't justify the path they chose.

principles were created by the elites of a species in the best interest of the elites of this particular species, period. people in S.S. live in medival times and commoners suffer everywhere. S.S. has its believes. the vaizard couldn't care less about that, they have their principles and believes, urahara couple who were thrown out by S.S., have theirs, so does aizen and his men have theirs, aizen's not talking about total annihilation of ALL SPECIES now is he?

Principles of soul society were created to protect the weaker part of the whole community, the humans or the majority of the souls. And, they have succeeded in protecting that balance for a long time.

At this point, it is highly possible that Aizen wouldn't mind the total annihilation of anyone who opposes them at the end (an end which would take you from medieval period to a maybe 100 times worse period), even if it would mean destroying 99.99999% of the living out there, he wouldn't mind choosing that path.

yamaji blindly follows orders when common sense would suggest something is totally off. to him, central 46=right, and he won't bother investigating things further, because he couldn't care less about aizen, rukia or orihime's lives. you call that principle? S.S. was a totalitarian government, you call that principle?

If currently all the judges (from lower to higher level) were put under the control of some demonic mind controller in a democratic country, and continues to apply the rules, would you consider that country a problematic one? No.

And, by the way, forget about Yamaji, even Rukia's own brother didn't suspect anything about the verdict about her.

and how many espadas were acting on pleasure instead of following orders? for one, aizen himself didn't kill anyone uneccesary for his plan.

Don't they mean the same thing, since the orders were created to give pleasure to the dictator...

And, I think Aizen currently considers himself strong enough to not get killed or harmed by those weakly creatures, according to him. So, he is just playing with the lives of others with great joy, testing his products.

95% converted to ichigo's side after their defeat in S.S. 100% lived through S.S. see for yourself if there's going to be any difference.

It doesn't matter, the hollow will try to stay true to their original state. And, if 95% will convert to Ichigo's side (even the wild animal kind of typical hollows, guess call of the beasts), then is there a need for Aizen to flee and do all of these things?

i read shounen for their overall predictability, the formulaic leveling up of the main hero, trashing of powerful enemies, powerful allies becoming utterly useless, is what i enjoy in shounen, that's why i call those who dream about anti-shouen formula stuff fanboys, haven't you realized that by now? and just because ichigo wins, doesn't mean his good. power=/=good.

Here, Ichigo will win because he is good. So, any other story pointing to another direction is not really a matter of discussion.
The main thing is how the story evolves towards the predictable end. And, we are not even at the end, we are just passing through one of the paths that lead to that end, and this path is expected to be different from the previous.