Hanasaku Iroha - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I get the feeling you're blaming Ko for a lot of what Ohana's feeling. What she decides. What she does or doesn't do. It's not exactly fair, is it?

Err, not really. The only feelings of Ohana's I'm blaming Kou for, I believe, are her feelings of guilt and anxiety. Yes, Ohana took Kou's kindness, and the idea that he would always be a support to her, for granted. However, given their past relationship and history, that Ohana should be able to count on Kou for that seems to me like simply basic fucking decency.

Sure, he took the initiative by confessing. Sure, the timing was awkward. But it's been months, and Ohana hasn't really done anything to fix things, has she? Ultimately she has to take responsibility for her actions (or lack thereof). As for her feelings... If Ko has to take responsibility for them, who's going to take responsibility for his?

I don't really understand what you mean by 'fix' things--from Ohana's perspective, is there anything to actually fix? On a friendship level, Kou is the only party making things difficult, by indicating that expecting him to show welcome or even basic interest anymore would be "taking advantage of his kindness". On the romantic level, Ohana has been doing her best to actually consider his feelings. The reason the relationship as a whole is falling apart is because Kou is not putting enough into it; it is not for a lack of willingness on Ohana's part at all.

And what more would you have of him?

Well, that he get a clue, maybe. Watching some clueless dope make an fool of themselves is not my idea of entertainment.

... constantly?

Something like 70% of the scenes Tohru has been even getting lately seem to be about him having an interest in Ohana disproportionate to their actual relationship.

So? Seriously, so? Has he done anything to hurt Ohana or anyone, except fail to notice Minko's feelings?

Well, frankly, I feel that his embarrassment is hurting himself.

And when has Kou ever refused to be there for her, answer or no answer?

Since the end of episode 12--and obviously not because that's what Ohana wanted.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Err, not really. The only feelings of Ohana's I'm blaming Kou for, I believe, are her feelings of guilt and anxiety. Yes, Ohana took Kou's kindness, and the idea that he would always be a support to her, for granted. However, given their past relationship and history, that Ohana should be able to count on Kou for that seems to me like simply basic fucking decency.

And when did he ever tell her she couldn't count on him? She's feeling guilty and anxious in large part because she jumped to various conclusions without discussing things with him. And because, let's face it, she failed to give any kind of answer for a good long while, or any indication she even wanted to hear from him. She did discuss with glasses girl... but Ko's only peripherally involved in that. Does he know the discussion took place? Does he know the contents in any detail?

I don't really understand what you mean by 'fix' things--from Ohana's perspective, is there anything to actually fix?

It's up to Ohana to decide whether her present relationship with Ko is satisfactory or not. It looks to me like it's the latter.

On a friendship level, Kou is the only party making things difficult, by indicating that expecting him to show welcome or even basic interest anymore would be "taking advantage of his kindness".

Only, he's never done that. Ohana, with the assistance of her freaking love rival, got it into her head. Ko had nothing to do with it.

On the romantic level, Ohana has been doing her best to actually consider his feelings.

She knows she's hurting him by not answering, yet she doesn't answer. Not even with an "I'm confused about the nature of my feelings, please wait" or "I'm confused, please don't wait" or "I love you, but I'm not sure the long distance thing could work" or any freaking thing. Her consideration looks pretty useless. And please notice that he's just as considerate. And just as paralyzed, though his confusion isn't about his feelings, but about the mixed signals Ohana's been sending.

The reason the relationship as a whole is falling apart is because Kou is not putting enough into it; it is not for a lack of willingness on Ohana's part at all.

I don't see how he's putting any less in it than Ohana. What did she do aside from getting drunk and crying about it?

Well, that he get a clue. Watching some clueless dope make an fool of themselves is not my idea of entertainment.



Something like 70% of the scenes Tohru has been even getting lately seem to be about him having an interest in Ohana disproportionate to their actual relationship.

Because it's Ohana's story, most of his screentime is connected to her.

Well, frankly, I feel that his embarrassment is hurting himself.

Well, that's his problem, isn't it?

Since the end of episode 12--and obviously not because that's what Ohana wanted.

Ohana one-sidedly decided she didn't want him in her business. He never actually told her "no". He didn't even really get to hear what it was about.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And when did he ever tell her she couldn't count on him? She's feeling guilty and anxious in large part because she jumped to various conclusions without discussing things with him. And because, let's face it, she failed to give any kind of answer for a good long while, or any indication she even wanted to hear from him. She did discuss with glasses girl... but Ko's only peripherally involved in that. Does he know the discussion took place? Does he know the contents in any detail?

Only, he's never done that. Ohana, with the assistance of her freaking love rival, got it into her head. Ko had nothing to do with it.

Ohana one-sidedly decided she didn't want him in her business. He never actually told her "no". He didn't even really get to hear what it was about.

The way the phone call at the end of episode 12 goes is basically like this: Ohana says she's been a terrible person and has not been thinking about the people who are supporting and cheering for her--Kou says "sure". Additionally, in response to Ohana saying he doesn't actually need to go with her, Kou ends the call with a "goodbye"--in the clear sense of moving on from their relationship.

So basically, Kou allows Ohana to go on thinking that she was at fault for having depended on him--or rather, confirms it for her--and then further goes on to indicate that if there's nothing more she needs to ask of him, they have nothing more to say to each other. In response to this "goodbye" of his--with all its, if not voiced explicitly outright, clear implications of what remains of Kou's feelings about their relationship--Ohana, in the next episode, has to say a "goodbye" of her own. So in the end, given what was successfully communicated in that last conversation of theirs, I think it is completely fair to say that Kou was the one who really ended the relationship.

She knows she's hurting him by not answering, yet she doesn't answer. Not even with an "I'm confused about the nature of my feelings, please wait" or "I'm confused, please don't wait" or "I love you, but I'm not sure the long distance thing could work" or any freaking thing. Her consideration looks pretty useless. And please notice that he's just as considerate. And just as paralyzed, though his confusion isn't about his feelings, but about the mixed signals Ohana's been sending.

I don't see how he's putting any less in it than Ohana. What did she do aside from getting drunk and crying about it?

The point here being, then, that in the absence of a romantic resolution to their relationship, at least their friendship should continue to survive. The fact is that if it had, Ohana would have reached a romantic conclusion eventually. In the end, it is because Kou did not put enough into the foundational friendship of their relationship that he allowed the romance to end with an "I'm moving on; I can't wait any longer" sort of conclusion. Ohana's been angsting about having finally said goodbye--but did not Kou seem to be perfectly fine with it? Ohana has obviously got the more care and attachment here--that's why I've said she's put more 'in'.

Because it's Ohana's story, most of his screentime is connected to her.

Which just means that most of it is spent highlighting his weakness of character.

Well, that's his problem, isn't it?

:P It's also the show's problem, if I am actually supposed to like his character. I don't like seeing failure in reality; and I don't like seeing it in fiction either.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The way the phone call at the end of episode 12 goes is basically like this: Ohana says she's been a terrible person and has not been thinking about the people who are supporting and cheering for her--Kou says "sure".

Remember that he'd just woken up and didn't know what she was talking about. We do because we've seen the whole ordeal. He woke up to a confusing, hurried speech. So he said "sure" to indulge her, and maybe hoping she'd start to make sense eventually.

Additionally, in response to Ohana saying he doesn't actually need to go with her, Kou ends the call with a "goodbye"--in the clear sense of moving on from their relationship.

Except it's not clear at all. The "good bye" he used doesn't have to mean "good bye forever" at all - that's just Ohana's interpretation.

And if we're going to allow misunderstandings and making mountains out of molehills, Ko could have interpreted Ohana's call as "You're just a crutch. I don't need you anymore, and I won't ever need you again."

Or maybe, quite simply, he didn't understand what she was talking about.

So basically, Kou allows Ohana to go on thinking that she was at fault for having depended on him--or rather, confirms it for her--and then further goes on to indicate that if there's nothing more she needs to ask of him, they have nothing more to say to each other. In response to this "goodbye" of his--with all its, if not voiced explicitly outright, clear implications of what remains of Kou's feelings about their relationship--Ohana, in the next episode, has to say a "goodbye" of her own. So in the end, given what was successfully communicated in that last conversation of theirs, I think it is completely fair to say that Kou was the one who really ended the relationship.

I disagree. Ohana's the one who, once again, decided that that good-bye meant an end.

The point here being, then, that in the absence of a romantic resolution to their relationship, at least their friendship should continue to survive. The fact is that if it had, Ohana would have reached a romantic conclusion eventually. In the end, it is because Kou did not put enough into the foundational friendship of their relationship that he allowed the romance to end with an "I'm moving on; I can't wait any longer" sort of conclusion. Ohana's been angsting about having finally said goodbye--but did not Kou seem to be perfectly fine with it? Ohana has obviously got the more care and attachment here--that's why I've said she's put more 'in'.

Except that in terms of actions, all Ohana's done is call him a couple of times when she needed him, and gone to see him when she was in the neighborhood. He's the one who made the trip just to see her, even if he had to abort due to outside circumstances (and his own lack of foresight. But the point is, he tried.).

Which just means that most of it is spent highlighting his weakness of character.


:P It's also the show's problem, if I am actually supposed to like his character. I don't like seeing failure in reality; and I don't like seeing it in fiction either.

So you want shows filled with men who know exactly what they want, how to get it, and how women think, to boot. And women who... don't really do much, really.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Remember that he'd just woken up and didn't know what she was talking about. We do because we've seen the whole ordeal. He woke up to a confusing, hurried speech. So he said "sure" to indulge her, and maybe hoping she'd start to make sense eventually.

Except it's not clear at all. The "good bye" he used doesn't have to mean "good bye forever" at all - that's just Ohana's interpretation.

And if we're going to allow misunderstandings and making mountains out of molehills, Ko could have interpreted Ohana's call as "You're just a crutch. I don't need you anymore, and I won't ever need you again."

Or maybe, quite simply, he didn't understand what she was talking about.

I disagree. Ohana's the one who, once again, decided that that good-bye meant an end.

I don't want to argue over speculative interpretations, so we can just wait and see. Frankly, it really does seem to me that Kou's moved on and isn't waiting for Ohana anymore.

Except that in terms of actions, all Ohana's done is call him a couple of times when she needed him, and gone to see him when she was in the neighborhood. He's the one who made the trip just to see her, even if he had to abort due to outside circumstances (and his own lack of foresight. But the point is, he tried.).

Kou made a trip to see her...to maintain their relationship? Or rather to press the issue of her specifically being romantically together with him? I think Ohana has obviously got the more investment in the relationship as a whole.

So you want shows filled with men who know exactly what they want, how to get it, and how women think, to boot. And women who... don't really do much, really.

I don't generally tend to watch shows which prominently feature (heterosexual) romance in the first place. But as for males, yeah, you're pretty much right--that's what I like to see. As for women, it probably ultimately depends on the context but in general I like to see women who are actually in love. That is pretty much the baseline for getting me to cheer for them. From there, "what they do" usually takes care of itself--but you should note, I'm not cheering for Ohana romantically in the first place.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I don't want to argue over speculative interpretations, so we can just wait and see. Frankly, it really does seem to me that Kou's moved on and isn't waiting for Ohana anymore.

Maybe. But after all her inaction, and that call that was basically pushing him away, he has a right.

Kou made a trip to see her...to maintain their relationship? Or rather to press the issue of her specifically being romantically together with him?

Either way, he's done more to maintain contact than she has.

I think Ohana has obviously got the more investment in the relationship as a whole.

Because she cries more about it?

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Maybe. But after all her inaction, and that call that was basically pushing him away, he has a right.

Sure, he has a right. But the only reason Ohana was pushing him away in the first place was out of guilt. That she thought she'd done something wrong by him, I think, should have at least gotten through in the conversation. If from the start their friendship had meant anything to him, I don't think he should've let her go.

Either way, he's done more to maintain contact than she has.

Because she cries more about it?

Basically, yeah. The bare interactions themselves I don't make a great fuss about. Simply, from what I've seen, Kou has been more self-absorbed in his own emotions than Ohana who's been trying her best to answer him.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Sure, he has a right. But the only reason Ohana was pushing him away in the first place was out of guilt.

Guilt for which I don't blame him. What does he have to do with it? I also think that if she really feels guilty, unilaterally cutting him off from her life is poor way of expressing it.

That she thought she'd done something wrong by him, I think, should have at least gotten through in the conversation.

I think, from what little he had to go on, it's a lot to ask of him to understand the guilt is there, where it comes from, and to deal with it.

If from the start their friendship had meant anything to him, I don't think he should've let her go.

That's a criticism that can be leveled at her just as easily.

Basically, yeah. The bare interactions themselves I don't make a great fuss about. Simply, from what I've seen, Kou has been more self-absorbed in his own emotions than Ohana who's been trying her best to answer him.

Again, it's Ohana's story. She has more screentime, and we naturally sympathize with her more. That doesn't mean that whenever something happens, it's all the other party's fault, and none of hers.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Guilt for which I don't blame him. What does he have to do with it? I also think that if she really feels guilty, unilaterally cutting him off from her life is poor way of expressing it.

I think, from what little he had to go on, it's a lot to ask of him to understand the guilt is there, where it comes from, and to deal with it.

Kou: "I don't really get what you're saying [and thus don't really care], but, sure."

Of course with that limited amount of information, I didn't expect Kou to understand. The problem is, though, that Kou didn't even bother to try to understand. Ohana's apologizing? She thinks she's treated him badly? Nope, not interested in asking what she means by that at all.

That's a criticism that can be leveled at her just as easily.

From Ohana's perspective, Kou has said "goodbye". She feels guilty about having even received kind words from him. There are actual blocks there for her to try to restart a casual relationship.

Again, it's Ohana's story. She has more screentime, and we naturally sympathize with her more. That doesn't mean that whenever something happens, it's all the other party's fault, and none of hers.

I don't even sympathize with Ohana particularly. Kou simply came off as self-absorbed from the very first episode, and his lack of genuine interest in Ohana aside from romantically is blatantly clear. I don't actually feel sad when I see Ohana angsting pointlessly, I just understand that the show is trying to tell me she still isn't over him.

[Guardian Enzo]

Maybe time for PMs on this?

[blakstealth]

Finally got to see ep15 since Commie subs are slow.

At first, I was like, "Oh man, did Ohana really gain another love interest? rofl," but then it didn't happen.

Great to see Yuina completely devoted to the Festing game.