[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Dlanor doesn't like Erika. Maybe she wanted to help Beatrice corner her. The window became a trap for Erika rather than for Beatrice, which seems to have been exactly what Beato wanted. Therefore, leaving it sealed should have been of benefit to Erika (even if she didn't believe it at the time). So what Dlanor was doing was kind of shooting "her" side in the foot either way.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

If Kanon=Kinzo were true, why wouldn't Dlanor have just said in red that the window to the neighboring room was still sealed? If she did that, Erika wouldn't have had to "die" at the end of EP6.

Erika and Dlanor were effectively posing a mystery to Battler's side. Because of that, they were obligated not to cause a logic error themselves (see Feather and Ange's conversation), so they had to at least technically leave open a solution that they knew about. Since Dlanor didn't know about Kanon = Kinzo, she had to leave open a different hole, namely the window.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Dlanor doesn't like Erika. Maybe she wanted to help Beatrice corner her. The window became a trap for Erika rather than for Beatrice, which seems to have been exactly what Beato wanted. Therefore, leaving it sealed should have been of benefit to Erika (even if she didn't believe it at the time). So what Dlanor was doing was kind of shooting "her" side in the foot either way.

Dlanor pledged to protect Erika no matter what at the end of EP5, even if she didn't like her. We can see from the scenes in EP6 that she didn't hate Erika. At the very least, I don't see why she'd kill her all of a sudden.

Also, how do you explain the way that Beato reached the answer? How did she know that sending Kanon to save Battler would work? Considering that she'd just seen this whole scene about love that repeatedly hinted at Shkanontrice, why would she suddenly realize that Kanon's name was actually Kinzo, for some reason?

I realize that the ghost Erika theory is possible, but I just don't see how it could fit into the story of EP6.

Erika and Dlanor were effectively posing a mystery to Battler's side. Because of that, they're obligated not to cause a logic error themselves (see Feather and Ange's conversation), so they have to at least technically leave open a solution that they know about. Since Dlanor didn't know about Kanon = Kinzo, she had to leave open a different hole, namely the window.

Again, if even Dlanor doesn't know about Kanon = Kinzo, why is it that Beato figures it out when everything points to Shkanontrice? Or are you suggesting that no one knew and it worked by some kind of coincidence?

[Renall]

Why would she assume Shkanon? What if the hints are misread, she tries it, and gets shut down? I don't see how what she experienced alone can make everything click. It's far too open to interpretation.

And if realizing the truth was just picking up on a third-rate mystery plot twist, Battler's revelation in ep5 is beyond tacky. Just pointing out how un-profound it is, because it can never be profound. It'd be realizing he'd been hoodwinked by the most obvious of tricks all along. It's hardly got the impact the scene needs emotionally.

As to Kanon = Kinzo, I'm not a huge subscriber to that one. I've always tried to phrase it as "Kanon escapes the name check through some method x." This is more or less in line with the valid reasonings actually used, and it technically also works with Shkanon since there method x involves not being in the truly sealed room because he's Shannon. So you're better off asking someone else.

Also Erika annoying Dlanor is canon, and Erika was sort of egging Dlanor on to remove the seal. Protecting her actually should have involved shutting down her request and telling her that the seal was for her own good.

EDIT: Also, why is Battler perpetuating the lie of Shkanon in ep6 by lying about Kanon's name? It's impossible for Erika not to know Shkanon is true.

[Judoh]

Well if we beleive what Ssol said playing the name game may not even be necessary for Kanon to be the rescuer.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1676

Also I have a question why is it that we can have representations of Erika and Kanon with this red?

[Definition check. That "three people" refers to the number of bodies, correct? That means three bodies went in and out, right?] Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.

it sounds like Beatrice is trying to debunk Erika's name theory by saying therefore "they can only be the people I say they are". Do representations actually work here just because of the context of the question?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

it sounds like Beatrice is saying trying to debunk Erika's name theory by saying therefore "they can only be the people I say they are". Do representations actually work here just because of the context of the question?

Well, "actual people" is vague, for instance, look at Kanon.

Kanon is not somebody's actual name. It's a name used by a servant, whose real name is something else. But of course, "Kanon" can refer to that servant, because that's the character we're seeing it as.

So I guess the Erika name theory would say that "Erika" can only refer to "the person herself," but is vague on whether that is a real life human being named Furudo Erika, or merely a piece which Erika believes is such.

It's an obvious flaw though, same as all those "other Battler" theories that allow the red to apply to our Battler only when it's convenient. That said... Beatrice did put that in play herself.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, "actual people" is vague, for instance, look at Kanon.

Kanon is not somebody's actual name. It's a name used by a servant, whose real name is something else. But of course, "Kanon" can refer to that servant, because that's the character we're seeing it as.

So I guess the Erika name theory would say that "Erika" can only refer to "the person herself," but is vague on whether that is a real life human being named Furudo Erika, or merely a piece which Erika believes is such.

It's an obvious flaw though, same as all those "other Battler" theories that allow the red to apply to our Battler only when it's convenient. That said... Beatrice did put that in play herself.

Sure, but wouldn't another way to interpret the phrase "the actual people" be the humans we see using those names? The ones most people refer to?

I don't know other people on 4chan who read episode 6 say that that red means what it means. That they are literally referring to the actual humans we see who use the names Erika, Kanon, and Battler and that some readers would need a paragraph of red to accept that.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Sue, but wouldn't another way to interpret the phrase "the actual people" be the humans we see using those names?

I don't know other people on 4chan who read episode 6 say that that red means what it means. That they are literally referring to the actual people who use the names Erika, Kanon, and Battler and that some people would need a paragraph of red to accept that.

Yeah but who are the humans we see? If it's Erika, really Erika, why do she/Battler/Kanon behave the way they do? Is it more or less explicable with or without Erika? With or without Shkanon? Ep6's lack of a reliable perspective puts us in a pickle, and I should note, if you support Shkanon you have to accept the possibility of being misled by perspective, because only that keeps Shkanon alive past ep5.

So, no detective, people behaving irrationally, yet a person who goes by "Erika" is referred to in red as possessing some kind of body. Is it Furudo Erika? Is it someone going by Erika? Why would they do this? Is it Erika being overlaid on someone else's actions? Why?

We always seem to end up back in that closet (errr, not that way) in the end.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah but who are the humans we see? If it's Erika, really Erika, why do she/Battler/Kanon behave the way they do? Is it more or less explicable with or without Erika? With or without Shkanon? Ep6's lack of a reliable perspective puts us in a pickle, and I should note, if you support Shkanon you have to accept the possibility of being misled by perspective, because only that keeps Shkanon alive past ep5.

So, no detective, people behaving irrationally, yet a person who goes by "Erika" is referred to in red as possessing some kind of body. Is it Furudo Erika? Is it someone going by Erika? Why would they do this? Is it Erika being overlaid on someone else's actions? Why?

We always seem to end up back in that closet (errr, not that way) in the end.

What about if we had with or without Battler? How do we explain his behavior? Why does he need to be rescued? and why Kanon? and Why does Erika try and kill him when she was obviously given a sort of yandere obsession for him in episode 5?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

What about with or without Battler? How do we explain his behavior? Why does he need to be rescued? and why Kanon? and Why does Erika try and kill him when she was obviously given a sort of yandere obsession for him in episode 5?

A good point. Before the last few days I think someone was suggesting a Jessica = Other Battler = One Kanon Was Going To Rescue thing. Not sure how sensible that actually is though.

Erika's behavior really makes no sense if she actually exists. She's abused meta knowledge ever since she first showed up. If you refuse to believe she's imaginary, then that has to be explained. Not even "Beatrice" seems to have been aware of the red text, so a culprit who does things just because she wants to in the meta-world is pretty irrational.

But we do know there's a room, there's a "Battler," "Kanon," and "Erika," and they go in and out of it in a particular order. This scene is significant for more than just one of them. Shkanon would argue it's there to prove Kanon's non-existence (at least as a separate living person). But what about "Battler" and "Erika?" Who are they and why did they behave this way?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

A good point. Before the last few days I think someone was suggesting a Jessica = Other Battler = One Kanon Was Going To Rescue thing. Not sure how sensible that actually is though.

Yeah that was my theory. I'm not sure how sensible it is either.

Originally Posted by Renall

Erika's behavior really makes no sense if she actually exists. She's abused meta knowledge ever since she first showed up. If you refuse to believe she's imaginary, then that has to be explained. Not even "Beatrice" seems to have been aware of the red text, so a culprit who does things just because she wants to in the meta-world is pretty irrational.

Assuming she has meta knowledge and knowledge of the past games that would give her more of a reason to try to kill Jessica if she's the other Battler. And since she threw away her authority she can't really prove who it was either way.

If she doesn't her motive would have to be explained by being deceived somehow. I think I made a theory about this yesterday, but I never expected I might have to use it to explain why she would kill somebody

But we do know there's a room, there's a "Battler," "Kanon," and "Erika," and they go in and out of it in a particular order. This scene is significant for more than just one of them. Shkanon would argue it's there to prove Kanon's non-existence (at least as a separate living person). But what about "Battler" and "Erika?" Who are they and why did they behave this way?

I'm really confused about this too with both Erika and Shkanon theory. For example if Shannon is Erika why does she try to kill Battler? She never striked me as someone who hated him. and what does that mean for Kanon?

[Renall]

I don't think "Erika" can be Shannon in ep6, if going by the Erika Ball or Erika Mask kind of theory. Pretty sure it doesn't work with the red.

But my point is, no character has ever acted (not merely talked) in such a manner as to suggest that they are aware that red text prohibits them from doing certain things or guarantees certain things. Erika does. And even if Erika wanted to kill one of the First Twilight victims in particular, why did she kill the other five? Why did she go after Battler last? If she's real, what possible reason is there for this?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Erika's behavior really makes no sense if she actually exists. She's abused meta knowledge ever since she first showed up. If you refuse to believe she's imaginary, then that has to be explained. Not even "Beatrice" seems to have been aware of the red text, so a culprit who does things just because she wants to in the meta-world is pretty irrational.

Hmm, maybe it'll work better if I take that direction.

What if Erika acts the way she does in EP5 because someone hinted that a person on the island (Natsuhi) might commit murder? We already know that someone is trying to frame Natsuhi. The best way for them to do that would be to convince the "detective" that Natsuhi was going to try and murder someone that night, and let Erika do all the dirty work in giving the others alibis (except for Natsuhi, who the culprit made sure stayed in her room without an alibi).

Also, when you think about it, the seals in the guesthouse aren't too unbelievable if you assume Erika isn't too incredibly smart. Yes, she put seals on everyone's doors, but that's not so incredibly extreme. The only reason that it sounds crazy is because of the windows.

But...uh...does Erika ever actually say that she put the seals on the outside of the windows?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Hmm, maybe it'll work better if I take that direction.

What if Erika acts the way she does in EP5 because someone hinted that a person on the island (Natsuhi) might commit murder? We already know that someone is trying to frame Natsuhi. The best way for them to do that would be to convince the "detective" that Natsuhi was going to try and murder someone that night, and let Erika do all the dirty work in giving the others alibis (except for Natsuhi, who the culprit made sure stayed in her room without an alibi).

Also, when you think about it, the seals in the guesthouse aren't too unbelievable if you assume Erika isn't too incredibly smart. Yes, she put seals on everyone's doors, but that's not so incredibly extreme. The only reason that it sounds crazy is because of the windows.

But...uh...does Erika ever actually say that she put the seals on the outside of the windows?

Piece-Erika or Meta-Erika? Most discussion of the seals happens in the meta-world, I believe. I've always thought it almost absurd that Erika, even if she really exists, put all the seals she claims to have put up.

My issue with her behavior is less ep5 than ep6. In ep6, she just seems completely off the rails, outright controlled by her Meta handler. In ep5, at least, you could sort of see her behaving that way in spite of the whole Mary Sue thing (or perhaps because of it).

Author Theory would have Erika in ep6 able to abuse the red because the writer lets her... but that seems remarkably hackish for the person who claims to have also written 3-5.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Piece-Erika or Meta-Erika? Most discussion of the seals happens in the meta-world, I believe. I've always thought it almost absurd that Erika, even if she really exists, put all the seals she claims to have put up.

My issue with her behavior is less ep5 than ep6. In ep6, she just seems completely off the rails, outright controlled by her Meta handler. In ep5, at least, you could sort of see her behaving that way in spite of the whole Mary Sue thing (or perhaps because of it).

Author Theory would have Erika in ep6 able to abuse the red because the writer lets her... but that seems remarkably hackish for the person who claims to have also written 3-5.

Well, remember that EP5 introduces the concept that the game players can all control their respective characters, as long as they don't make them do things that would be impossible for the real person they represent.

Which part are you talking about, in particular? It might have been a meta-scene in which it occurred.


Also, in EP5, how long would it have taken to just seal the windows in the guesthouse and two (I think?) doors? That's not so absurd if someone's hinted that Natsuhi might kill to hold onto the headship.

[Renall]

Why choose the particular places she did? Why are seals on all windows or doors necessary? Why wasn't Natsuhi's room sealed (note that doing this would have completely exonerated her, if Natsuhi really did what she did)? And why is it within Piece-Erika's nature to murder five people in a gruesome fashion, for no readily-discernable reason? If it's not, why was she able to do it?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, remember that EP5 introduces the concept that the game players can all control their respective characters, as long as they don't make them do things that would be impossible for the real person they represent.

Which part are you talking about, in particular? It might have been a meta-scene in which it occurred.


Also, in EP5, how long would it have taken to just seal the windows in the guesthouse and two (I think?) doors? That's not so absurd if someone's hinted that Natsuhi might kill to hold onto the headship.

To be honest. In episode 5 I don't think Erika actually expected anybody to die after the epitaph was solved. That may have been her purpose to test whether the deaths stop after it's solved or not. She just sort of ran with the murder mystery idea after it happened is what I think.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Why choose the particular places she did? Why are seals on all windows or doors necessary? Why wasn't Natsuhi's room sealed (note that doing this would have completely exonerated her, if Natsuhi really did what she did)? And why is it within Piece-Erika's nature to murder five people in a gruesome fashion, for no readily-discernable reason? If it's not, why was she able to do it?

She sealed every place she could in the guesthouse, right? Every room where a person might have entered, as well as all of the windows on the second floor. Then, she stood guard around the first floor and stayed up all night listening to Battler's room.

She couldn't seal Natsuhi's room since that was in the mansion. The only reason Eva sealed Genji's room was to make it a closed room. She might also have sealed Krauss's room, but we didn't hear about it because that seal was broken when the culprit came for Krauss.

Someone had to set up the fake murders, and one of these people had to be Battler, since he saw the fake corpses and must have been able to identify them. That means that he had to plan it out with Rosa at least, and the only time he was with Rosa after "getting the ring" was at the family conference between 12:00 and 1:00. That implies that everyone present at that conference was in on the deception, including Eva. This explains why Eva set up the seals on the victims doors (Erika could be expected to guard the victims in the guesthouse, but not the ones in the mansion, so Eva needed to help make it seem like a closed room. They had already talked about the seals together earlier, so it's no surprise that they used the same kind)

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

She sealed every place she could in the guesthouse, right? Every room where a person might have entered, as well as all of the windows on the second floor. Then, she stood guard around the first floor and stayed up all night listening to Battler's room.

Yeah, but it isn't necessary to put the seals anywhere but the door and window of the cousins' room, and the door and perhaps windows of Nanjo's room. A seal doesn't keep anyone from actually coming in or out, it just proves what someone did or didn't do. All it does do, is give that unusual one-hour window in which Natsuhi is unaccounted-for and in which no one else could have gone up there but her. It's very suspicious. It reads like a frame job from the very beginning. Like Erika somehow knew Natsuhi was supposed to be the prime suspect even though there had not even been a crime yet, and she had no reason to especially single out Natsuhi.

She couldn't seal Natsuhi's room since that was in the mansion. The only reason Eva sealed Genji's room was to make it a closed room. She might also have sealed Krauss's room, but we didn't hear about it because that seal was broken when the culprit came for Krauss.

Yes, but Eva could have sealed Natsuhi's room. Why didn't she? Why seal Genji's and not Natsuhi's? Was she suspicious of Genji for some reason? And I should note that Genji's seal - the sole seal we were shown physically existing - was broken before Piece-Erika could ever confirm when it was broken.

Someone had to set up the fake murders, and one of these people had to be Battler, since he saw the fake corpses and must have been able to identify them. That means that he had to plan it out with Rosa at least, and the only time he was with Rosa was at the family conference between 12:00 and 1:00. That implies that everyone present at that conference was in on the deception, including Eva. This explains why Eva set up the seals on the victims doors (Erika could be expected to guard the victims in the guesthouse, but not the ones in the mansion, so Eva needed to help. They had already talked about the seals together earlier, so it's no surprise that they used the same kind)

So then they did frame Natsuhi? Why couldn't Erika, a supposed genius, realize that the lack of a seal on Natsuhi's door was strange when Eva went to such lengths to seal Genji in? And why was Erika's otherwise perfect vigil marred by a single period of inattention? We know Erika doesn't deliberately make mistakes, at least as far as she thinks.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah, but it isn't necessary to put the seals anywhere but the door and window of the cousins' room, and the door and perhaps windows of Nanjo's room. A seal doesn't keep anyone from actually coming in or out, it just proves what someone did or didn't do. All it does do, is give that unusual one-hour window in which Natsuhi is unaccounted-for and in which no one else could have gone up there but her. It's very suspicious. It reads like a frame job from the very beginning. Like Erika somehow knew Natsuhi was supposed to be the prime suspect even though there had not even been a crime yet, and she had no reason to especially single out Natsuhi.

Well, don't forget that Natsuhi and Krauss would be the prime suspects for this murder (Battler had stolen the headship from them), and both of them were in the mansion. Erika thought that she had an ally in Eva (since Eva hates those two).

Also, as I've said, we already know that someone was trying to frame Natsuhi. Why wouldn't try to get Erika to help and tell her who to suspect?

And if someone was stupid enough to enter through the windows, Erika would be able to narrow down the suspects to the people who were in the mansion. She could then rely on testimony from there to help her further.

Originally Posted by Renall

So then they did frame Natsuhi? Why couldn't Erika, a supposed genius, realize that the lack of a seal on Natsuhi's door was strange when Eva went to such lengths to seal Genji in?

Well, I imagine that they were trying to set up an impossible murder, but got stuck when the culprit snuck the fake corpses away and killed them. And Hideyoshi's murder was 100% real. Plus, they had to be confused about why Krauss was missing. In other words, their plans were screwed up almost from the beginning, so it's hard to tell what they were trying to do.

And I don't think there's any evidence that Erika's a genius. She just thinks she is.

And why was Erika's otherwise perfect vigil marred by a single period of inattention? We know Erika doesn't deliberately make mistakes, at least as far as she things.

Well, remember that Erika's vigil starts when Rosa comes in. There's a chance that she wasn't planning the vigil until she saw Rosa. Or, it could be that she was talking with Nanjo about the whole thing. The people at the mansion would need Nanjo on their side eventually. It makes sense that they would phone him at about midnight to tell him about the plan and to get Erika all worked up about it (they couldn't call him later, since Erika was with him all the time). After their talk was done, Erika decided to keep a lookout to prevent anyone else from going upstairs.