It is been popular lately to slam the USA on Human Rights but...

[hooliganj]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

"Questionable information"? The whole US intel dept. was convinced Iraq had WMD's
and was going to use them, Prez Bush came on TV and told us that!
demanding the rest of the world should take action dragging brittain along in the ride

Now you're telling me that that wasn't true?
Tell me where "I" am in the wrong here to be critical about "proven truths"
that still aren't proven

By and large, I want to stay out of this discussion, since, while I am highly critical of the Bush administration, I agree with the OP's point that few other countries have a leg to stand on when they criticize the US.

But I can't allow the facts to be bent to the breaking point, lest we all forget the professional sacrifices made by people like Richard Clarke and Valerie Plume. The US intel dept. (by which I assume you mean the CIA and military intelligence) was not convinced. In fact, the further the various investigations progress, the more it seems that there may not have actually been anyone in the various intelligence agencies who actually believed that Iraq had WMDs. As far as anyone can tell, the order came from the White House to produce evidence to confirm their beliefs, and the order was followed. Those people who did not follow the order were compromised, fired, even ruined.

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

it's common sense to be critical, looks more like it's trendy to play the victim

It's not just trendy, it's the American way of life.

We're not the cause of terrorism with our belligerant foreign policies, we're the victims of lunatics with no apparent motivation whatsoever. We're not an obese nation because we're lazy and fat, we're the victim of a fast food marketing conspiracy. We're not paranoid neurotics, we're victims of our parents/teachers/neighbors/whoever. We're not an uneducated, misinformed nation, we're victims of the liberal/right-wing (choose whichever you like) media. We are not oppressed masses, yearning to breath free, we're victims of our government, asking, pleading, begging for change yet not achieving it ourselves.

Welcome to the culture of victimhood - although I can understand if it all sounds pretty strange to someone who doesn't live here.

You have been the victim of an rant by hooliganj. Have a nice day.

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by BriteDarkness

Again, you assume that I am my government.

No I don't

I never said it was wrong for you to criticize my government for what they did wrong. It is wrong for you to attack me over their mistaken information. Information that I already told you I never believed. You need to learn how to
read.

No I only stated that you can't verify your information
that wasn't to attack you, but a form of sympathy
You (/me/everyone) can base logical conclusions on the info you're given
without actual proof, they unfortunatly remain assumptions

Tell me in wich way I hold you personally responsible for that and I'll agree it
was a personal attack

The thing that did not exist is the WMDs. The questionable report was about WMDs that did not exist. I suggest you verify your information before criticizing someone. You apparently do not, because all this information was in my previous post.

I gave a reason why other nations distrust the US
You seem to agree with that or maybe I misunderstand

And you appear to be anti-American rather than anti-America or anti-American government. Need I remind you that I did not invade Iraq?

You didn't? Man that means I've been sending Hate-PM's to all Americans for nothing?

[Shay]

Deleted......

[Ending]

If people are continously exposed to wrong information and information manipulated by the Government, then you cannot exactly blame the people behind the administration. We have observed quite a few times that the Government has control over the media.--

Heh, still remember that shock when Bush's campaigners just flat out insulted Kerry? But in this case the meaner one won the day and people liked of it. Even if the information is "wrong" (which depends of the POV), it is still what the people wanted to believe and on which they acted on. Quite many still probably believe into it full-heartedly. Manipulated or not, it's a dangerous mass and should not be ignored.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Wirhe

Heh, still remember that shock when Bush's campaigners just flat out insulted Kerry? But in this case the meaner one won the day and people liked of it. Even if the information is "wrong" (which depends of the POV), it is still what the people wanted to believe and on which they acted on. Quite many still probably believe into it full-heartedly. Manipulated or not, it's a dangerous mass and should not be ignored.

At least take a look at a recent poll on Bush's approval rate before you critize americans in general... The majority of Americans don't like Bush, don't agree with him, and think he's doing a bad job. His approval rate is about 39%, meaning 61% of the nation thinks he's either doing a bad job or were undecided. This is quite a low number for a president.

Yes, in the last election many americans believed what, in retrospect, were lies. However, when a talking point is repeated 24 hours a day, people start to believe it. Talking points are the single greatest threat to America. They sound good, but there's no substance behind them. All they do is encourage people to form opinions when they don't have all the facts. As soon as it started becoming apparent these were lies, Bush's approval rating dropped.

Now, what exactly would you like americans to do about it? Until there's a major election, the only thing we can do is protest and say we don't like the guy in opinion polls. Fortunately, there's just such an election coming up later this year. I doubt democrats will be able to gain control of the house, but they'll pick up some seats, and gaining control of the senate is quite possible.

That is assuming the elections aren't rigged of course. I have doubts about the 2004 presidental election...

[Ending]

Now, what exactly would you like americans to do about it?

Me? Nothing, it's not my problem as long as the "anti-terrorist war" stays out of Europe. I'm simply pitying that US is not doing as well as EU and Asia. More loan that ever, I hear, and military-budget in highest peak since World War 2. But guess that only makes the next elections even more entertaining for the rest of us.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Wirhe

Me? Nothing, it's not my problem as long as the "anti-terrorist war" stays out of Europe.

There is a saying in Turkish, it can translate to "The snake that doesn't touch me can live a thousand years for all I care. ".

This "classic European approach" is one of the reasons why the problems get bigger and bigger. Trying to stay out of it won't cut anymore. As long as you are not a completely closed country, you are bound to get affected by some problems that are happening at a totally unrelated place in the world at some point in your lifetime.

Maybe you are not aware but I believe that approach is one of the reasons why the death toll had reached around or more than 100 thousand near the center of Europe not so long ago. "As long as they don't touch me, they can kill each other till they dry their roots for all I care"!?! It is really sad that there are still many people that approach the problems this way.

[Ending]

That's why we have politicians and embassies; lone citizens like me do not need to bugger with such matters. In fact, many prefer it that way and try to make it as hard as possible [affecting politics]. Perhaps I should had said "It's not my problem because it does not touch me, others take care of it, and I can do nothing to it" instead.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Wirhe

That's why we have politicians and embassies; lone citizens like me do not need to bugger with such matters. In fact, many prefer it that way and try to make it as hard as possible [affecting politics]. Perhaps I should had said "It's not my problem because it does not touch me, others take care of it, and I can do nothing to it" instead.

I didn't get your second sentence, the goal of many - making hard what?.

If you were to come from a country like mine, I could have understood it, like the citizens cannot do anything about it. But, that is not the case for the western Europe countries. The public has significant power on politics and politicians. So, even a lone citizen can gather as many around and create a power to affect the politics.

As you should know that terrorism is not a problem that represents the beginning but rather the end. It is the end result of a process that involves many other problems. And I believe that no-care or not-much-care attitude does not only refer to terorism kind of things, but also refer to other problems like education or food. Hence, solving those problems before they become very big requires giving up from some of the comfort that the people in developed countries have. Now, how many would like to do that? If the money would come through the state budget, its origin should be related to taxes or so, hence without the consent from the citizens, that no-care citizens, how do you expect the problems to be solved without your help? Unless that no-care attitude changes, it is difficult to stop the problems or help those in need.