[Manga] Naruto Chapter 597 Discussion Thread

[james0246]

Actually...why hasn't Obito's eye (in Tobi) gone blind yet? Tobi has, presumably, been using the eye (specifically the time-space ninjutsu) for 17 years, so how come the eye hasn't lost its "light"? Itachi's eyes went out after only 7 or so years of usage (and I doubt he ever used them that much), yet Tobi has been using the same eye for more than twice as long with no problems (to the eye). So...what's up with that...?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually...why hasn't Obito's eye (in Tobi) gone blind yet? Tobi has, presumably, been using the eye (specifically the time-space ninjutsu) for 17 years, so how come the eye hasn't lost its "light"? Itachi's eyes went out after only 7 or so years of usage (and I doubt he ever used them that much), yet Tobi has been using the same eye for more than twice as long with no problems (to the eye). So...what's up with that...?

i think there are 2 possible reasons. 1 he has ems, which means tobi was another uchiha who implanted obito's eye which would probably make him izuna. not sure if obito would have to have MS prior to that though.

or, tobi's kamui doesn't impact his eye as much as say amaterasu or susano'o does. also, we don't know if tobi is partly going blind or not. itachi fought quite well when he was almost blind.

[David_The_Gnome]

Well, Tobi did have a right eye that did go blind when he used Izanagi during the fight with Konan. Of course, he could've just jacked the eye from a neighbor Uchiha.

Just to recap some of the facts:

- Same left eye as Obito
- Knows a bit of intimate knowledge on Kakashi, Naruto, Madara, and Gai.
- Other than binding the Tailed Beasts and the space-time warp, hasn't used any other jutsus
- Has used Izanagi which required both Senju and Uchiha DNA (can be obtained from Zetsu but prior to the war?)
- Hates war and conflict enough to go through with brainwashing the entire world via the moon
- Knows Madara and claims to "influence" Nagato while giving him the rininngan
- Appeared as an adult during his fight with Minato

Is he really "just" Obito or is there something else going on?

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually...why hasn't Obito's eye (in Tobi) gone blind yet? Tobi has, presumably, been using the eye (specifically the time-space ninjutsu) for 17 years, so how come the eye hasn't lost its "light"? Itachi's eyes went out after only 7 or so years of usage (and I doubt he ever used them that much), yet Tobi has been using the same eye for more than twice as long with no problems (to the eye). So...what's up with that...?

I think it's obvious that his eye is in normal sharingan mode when he uses it, it clearly has the 3 tomoe pattern of a normal sharingan, no MS patterns. Probably the DNA/cells of the 1st hokage which are in his body let him use rinnegan and also the sharingan on a higher level than a mere Uchiha could, because Senju+Uchiha->sage of 6 paths. Of course this would not explain why is Edo-Madara switching to EMS when he uses susano. But Tobi never switching to MS mode at least is a strong hint.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you're right about this, but what's the point? the whole series is magic. try making sense out of edo-tensei zombies having unlimited chakra or summoning jutsus or eating wads of clay with your hand mouths and spitting out bombs, or turning yourself into a living stick that can control puppets with chakra strings. it's all nonsense and tobi's ability is no exception, just new in it's explanation (well as Hunter pointed out it's not that new an explanation) it wouldn't have been as dumb if kakashi and naruto weren't there when sakura said it the first time

I wouldn't call all jutsu nonsense, there are different levels of nonsense there
Having limited chakra in a fight is quite logical, so it makes sense. The 9 demons having huge amount, even unlimited chakra has less sense, but we can still make sense of it considering the story. But then there are these ET zombies that presumably have unlimited chakra out of nowhere, that doesn't make sense. So i think we can always discuss how much sense does a particular ability or jutsu have in the Narutoverse.

[milan kyuubi]

Maybe it's just a sharingan special ability, and not MS based one.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Maybe it's just a sharingan special ability, and not MS based one.

There are the type of explanations which say that if your ability/level/power is raised then you can make the same move more easily. For example Naruto could perform a rasenshuriken only by damaging his hand, but when he levels up to sage mode he can do it without damage, then when he levels up to kyuubi mode even his clones can spam rasenshurikens. For sharingan usage we know there are levels of body/DNA: a normal body like Kakashi has has a hard time to handle MS, an Uchiha body with MS can spam it but it's damaging his own eye, with EMS no damage, and then there's the final upgrade that Madara did in order to obtain the rinnegan from the EMS. We know that Tobi is growing the cells of the 1st hokage and that his body is most likely made of that thing.

[ntherblast]

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually...why hasn't Obito's eye (in Tobi) gone blind yet? Tobi has, presumably, been using the eye (specifically the time-space ninjutsu) for 17 years, so how come the eye hasn't lost its "light"? Itachi's eyes went out after only 7 or so years of usage (and I doubt he ever used them that much), yet Tobi has been using the same eye for more than twice as long with no problems (to the eye). So...what's up with that...?

I thought that only applied to Mangekyō Sharingan users? I've yet to see tobi activate it yet

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I think it's obvious that his eye is in normal sharingan mode when he uses it, it clearly has the 3 tomoe pattern of a normal sharingan, no MS patterns. Probably the DNA/cells of the 1st hokage which are in his body let him use rinnegan and also the sharingan on a higher level than a mere Uchiha could, because Senju+Uchiha->sage of 6 paths. Of course this would not explain why is Edo-Madara switching to EMS when he uses susano. But Tobi never switching to MS mode at least is a strong hint.

it's not obvious. we have never been shown it by kishi. simple as that. maybe he does use MS, maybe he doesn't, but kamui is already known as a MS technique. if kishi had shown it in use before then we would have known it was obito's eye for sure. I assume the reason we still don't see it is that there is still a debate as to whether tobi has ems or not which also changes the design of the eye

[Dengar]

Re: Tobi knows stuff about Kakashi and Guy:


He also knows stuff about them AFTER Obito died. This proves nothing.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by David_The_Gnome

Other than binding the Tailed Beasts and the space-time warp, hasn't used any other jutsus

Not true. He used an Earth technique in the Deidara v. Sasuke battle, and literally just used an Uchiha flame technique last chapter (596), additionally he seemingly used Kotoamatsukami on Yagura at some point (though this could have been a different Tobi), and can potentially use Tsukuyomi. So, Tobi can use techniques, he simply doesn't.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Not true. He used an Earth technique in the Deidara v. Sasuke battle

i think that was just a phasing technique used to get underground to plant bombs. it wasn't described as specifically as an earth technique

and literally just used an Uchiha flame technique last chapter (596)

that was a barrier summons. summonings should be added to the list of techniques he does, but i dont think he's ever done elemental ninjutsu

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i think that was just a phasing technique used to get underground to plant bombs. it wasn't described as specifically as an earth technique

The ground crumbles around him, so it is not a phasing technique (additionally, I don't think he could have phased in and out underground while also planting bombs). Unless Tobi simply strong armed his way through the ground, he used the same earth technique Kakashi and Deidara have used in the past.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

that was a barrier summons. summonings should be added to the list of techniques he does, but i dont think he's ever done elemental ninjutsu

While debatable whether it can be classified as an elemental ninjutsu, the barrier Tobi creates is clearly not a summon.

Additionally, Tobi has been shown to use Chakra Chains (though this might be a Rinnegan technique).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

The ground crumbles around him, so it is not a phasing technique (additionally, I don't think he could have phased in and out underground while also planting bombs). Unless Tobi simply strong armed his way through the ground, he used the same earth technique Kakashi and Deidara have used in the past.

couldn't the ground crumbling just be because of the space his body took up underground so it's like a little sink hole? he did a similar thing when he used 'whack-a-mole' jutsu against kakashi's search party. he didn't make any signs or anything. I could be wrong, but it just seems like the same phasing/teleportation technique since he appears in other places so fast. basically he teleports undergournd and then pops up causing the earth to break open and some to fall down into the space he was occupying

While debatable whether it can be classified as an elemental ninjutsu, the barrier Tobi creates is clearly not a summon.

edit: actually it still looks like a summoning to me, but oh well

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually...why hasn't Obito's eye (in Tobi) gone blind yet? Tobi has, presumably, been using the eye (specifically the time-space ninjutsu) for 17 years, so how come the eye hasn't lost its "light"? Itachi's eyes went out after only 7 or so years of usage (and I doubt he ever used them that much), yet Tobi has been using the same eye for more than twice as long with no problems (to the eye). So...what's up with that...?

It seems likely at this point that Obito's Sharingan is similar to Shisui's in that it has a special ability usable by the right eye's normal Sharingan and a much more powerful but related ability that can be used by the left eye's Mangekyou Sharingan. In fact, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that providing a prior example of a "special" Sharingan may have been a large part of the reason Shisui's Sharingan was presented in the story at all. As we've been shown repeatedly, Tobi has only been using the regular Sharingan this whole time, and that's why he hasn't gone blind.

[itachi-san314]

since i'm clearly in the minority about thinking tobi uses MS to use kamui. or at least that it's not a fact that he uses normal sharingan all the time. can anybody site an example from the manga that shows tobi using a normal sharingan when he uses his kamui technique? my hunch is that you can't, but let's see

[Sasheks]

^
Much like you can't provide a page that Tobi is shown using MS. With a slight difference that Tobi is always seen with a regular sharingan prior to casting the technique. Just not in the same panel, I'll give you that.
But until it is shown clearly what he uses it's all pretty much speculation, unless someone finds that page you asked for as I am too lazy to search.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

couldn't the ground crumbling just be because of the space his body took up underground so it's like a little sink hole? he did a similar thing when he used 'whack-a-mole' jutsu against kakashi's search party. he didn't make any signs or anything. I could be wrong, but it just seems like the same phasing/teleportation technique since he appears in other places so fast. basically he teleports undergournd and then pops up causing the earth to break open and some to fall down into the space he was occupying

That doesn't really make sense. Besides the fact that he shouldn't be able to drop off mines while phasing, when Tobi is phasing above ground he is only displacing air, which is easy for a body to do. But, if he was phasing and unphasing underground his body would be displacing dirt and rocks, something that is fair more difficult (if not impossible) to do.

To use basic teleportation/phasing logic (derived from every source that has teleportation/phasing as an ability), if you teleport into a solid piece of matter (or un-phase while in a solid piece of matter), then you die because your body either becomes part of the object you are moving into, or it is simply crushed.

To put it into perspective, in chapter 566 Tobi effortlessly slipped out of the ground without causing any disturbance. Why didn't he do that back during the Deidara battle?

(To be fair, Kishimoto never explicitly has Tobi mention this earth technique, but it has enough similarities to a known technique for the assumption to be made that it is the same earth technique.)

That being said, "Whack-a-Mole" was an anime-only jutsu for Tobi.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

edit: actually it still looks like a summoning to me, but oh well

There isn't much to really compare the technique to, but similar kanji is used to describe the Sound Four's (confirmed) barrier ninjutsu and the one Tobi recently performed (I think there are other barriers that also use the same kanji). Specifically, both contain the characters 炎 and 陣 (flame and formation). Additionally, summoning requires blood (save for Pain's summons, which still have yet to be explained) or a seal which blood can be applied to or that already has blood in it.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it's not obvious. we have never been shown it by kishi. simple as that. maybe he does use MS, maybe he doesn't, but kamui is already known as a MS technique. if kishi had shown it in use before then we would have known it was obito's eye for sure. I assume the reason we still don't see it is that there is still a debate as to whether tobi has ems or not which also changes the design of the eye

He has a normal sharingan eye every time we see him, i've never seen him with MS eyes in battles and when he uses his version of kamui. We now know for sure that it's Obito's eye, and it was never shown in MS mode when Tobi was performing his super-kamui. If it was not Obito's eye we could say that the specific eye that Tobi uses looks the same in MS/EMS mode as a normal sharingan, but now that we know that a pair of MS eyes looks the same we can assume that Tobi's eye should look like Kakashi's eye in MS mode. Also spamming MS jutsu always consumes a lot of chakra, so why would Tobi be able to spam MS? If he could then he could also spam rinnegan jutsu, but Kakashi already told us that Tobi is avoiding that. So Tobi can use this jutsu with almost no effect to his chakra level and Obito's eye, which is also a strong hint that he is not in MS mode.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

He has a normal sharingan eye every time we see him, i've never seen him with MS eyes in battles and when he uses his version of kamui.

Personally, I'm expecting that Obito's eye will be found in the center of Tobi's head, or some other place on his body and not the eye socket we've all been focusing on.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Sasheks

^
Much like you can't provide a page that Tobi is shown using MS. With a slight difference that Tobi is always seen with a regular sharingan prior to casting the technique. Just not in the same panel, I'll give you that.
But until it is shown clearly what he uses it's all pretty much speculation, unless someone finds that page you asked for as I am too lazy to search.

I never said I could. I said it wasn't shown on purpose. Even if he doesn't use MS, it's not a fact yet that he doesn't like a lot of people claim it to be

Originally Posted by james0246

To use basic teleportation logic (derived from every source that has teleportation as an ability), if you teleport into a solid piece of matter (or un-phase while in a solid piece of matter), then you die because your body either becomes part of the object you are moving into, or it is simply crushed

I agree, but Tobi's ability is said to be the best ever, even beyond what Minato could do. Displacing earth isn't the most far fetched thing in naruto for sure.

To put it into perspective, in chapter 566 Tobi effortlessly slipped out of the ground without causing any disturbance. Why didn't he do that back during the Deidara battle?

my guess would be that he had to materialize in different places to plant the bombs.

That being said, "Whack-a-Mole" was an anime-only jutsu for Tobi.

oh ok, I didn't remember that. thanks

There isn't much to really compare the technique to, but similar kanji is used to describe the Sound Four's (confirmed) barrier ninjutsu and the one Tobi recently performed (I think there are other barriers that also use the same kanji). Specifically, both contain the characters 炎 and 陣 (flame and formation). Additionally, summoning requires blood (save for Pain's summons, which still have yet to be explained) or a seal which blood can be applied to or that already has blood in it.

hmm. interesting info. thanks

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

but now that we know that a pair of MS eyes looks the same we can assume that Tobi's eye should look like Kakashi's eye in MS mode.

assuming tobi doesn't have ems then yes.

Also spamming MS jutsu always consumes a lot of chakra, so why would Tobi be able to spam MS? If he could then he could also spam rinnegan jutsu, but Kakashi already told us that Tobi is avoiding that.

well this might all fit under the umbrella of kishi giving characters enough chakra to do whatever it is the plot needs them to do. nagato was dying and he spammed the hell out of rinnegan. since tobi is more experienced or doesn't use such a great distance, maybe his kamui requires less chakra than kakashi's kamui?

So Tobi can use this jutsu with almost no effect to his chakra level and Obito's eye, which is also a strong hint that he is not in MS mode.

a bigger hint to me is that kakashi needs MS to use kamui. we've never seen a MS technique used by somebody else without MS. if that was the case, then sasuke could have feasibly used Amaterasu vs Itachi in normal sharingan mode

Originally Posted by james0246

Personally, I'm expecting that Obito's eye will be found in the center of Tobi's head, or some other place on his body and not the eye socket we've all been focusing on.

interesting. he does have the eye hole for it now