AnimeSuki Forums

neodrag38 · 2004-11-15, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tron Bonne

I said I have a hard time, not that I can't. Naruto's past is sad, but at least it only would affect me. I can bear that kind of pain, but to have to watch my loved ones be killed cold bloodedly, that I could not live with. I can't see how you can compare the two myself, it hurts to lose someone, it hurts far more than to have to suffer yourself, at least for me. I would rather be alone forever than watch a loved one die, it's selfish to think otherwise. Naruto could have done something to save himself, he chose not to, he chose the easy way. Sasuke had no way to stop what happened, he couldn't have beat Itachi, he was a victem by force not by choice. There is the difference between the two.

Spoiler:

When you say that Naruto could of done something to save himself, what exactl could he do before graduating from the academy that would change the situation of most people in Konoha seeing him as some type of monster. What was he supposed to do when he tries to play with other kids and try to have a friendship but the factor of the other kids having parents that hate his guts get in the way? The fact is that he was just a little kid stuck with being an orphan that no one wants to take in, that most most don't want to interact with or have their love ones interact with him, etc. You make it seem like Naruto choosed to be a loner and not want to interact with others which I feel to be kind of wierd.

You saying that you could bare the pain of being an orphan with no friends or family members to speak of with everyone hating you for what it seemed like for no apparent reason to you knowledge for something that isn't even your fault to begin is just plain ridiculous in itself.

I know all the stuff about Sasuke's background but it doesn't seem to be a good enough excuse in my book. I wouldn't be surprised that there are other individuals in the world of the Naruto manga that have had the same experience with less drastic, negative actions on their part afterwards, which could be possibly shown in the next chapter that will hopefully give us a better idea of what Kakashi meant when he said that all his loved ones were dead or somewhere around the lines of that.

But whatever the case, I'm a bit annoyed by this thread's reminder of how bad Sasuke's past was when it clearly was shown within the manga since the current situation is still that of Sasuke betraying Konoha; he was a Konoha ninja, tried to leave with enemies of the village, attacked another Konoha ninja, went over to a ninja that murdered the Hokage of Konoha,etc. that show what his act of being a traitor was. It really makes me wonder if everyone who still likes Sasuke's character would still be giving constant excuses for his behavior even if Sasuke killed like Kakashi or some other character well liked by fans of Naruto.

Dokuganryu · 2004-11-15, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deth moad ue

Bravo!
Naruto?? He never had anyone to begin with. To have everything ripped away from is painful. Naruto never knew what he was missing til Sakura, Sasuke, and Kakashi.

Wow that has to be the single stupidest comment I read on this thread. If you've ever had someone really close to you die, you'll know when you get over the pain of loosing them and put it into perspective, you'll realize it was better to have known someone who really cares about for you and if you were given the chance to live through that again you would because it's better to have had someone like that, than never at all.

Kadius · 2004-11-15, 17:34

Apparently some of you don't know what it's like to be truly alone.

Sasuke's sorrow and misery turned into hatred for his brother. He thrives on hatred and has shut himself off from the world. He was given everything and yet he still acts the way he does. He's single minded about what he wants with his life. He's an avenger and that's how he's decided to live his life. To hell with everyone else.

Naruto on the other hand, only knows emptyness and hatred from others. He never had anyone to hold him or anyone to be friends with. I don't think people understand that. In my opinion Naruto still feels hallow inside, even if he smiles all the time. Naruto would be worse than Gaara if it wasn't for his 'precious people'.

Naruto has never been loved. Sasuke was and is, yet all he does is sit around and wallow in self pity. There is no comparison.

**monir** · 2004-11-15, 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinac

The comparing thing really gets old and is irritating. Everyone has different backgrounds and different situations that are interpreted differently by different personalities and minds. Hence the key word that I used 50 times there is "Different." You never know how someone will deal with a traumatic event, its why everyone has completely different reactions upon dealing with loss, pain, or any kind of trauma. No reaction is more right or wrong than the other. How someone copes with the pain is really a mixture of personality, past experiences, beliefs and values, etc. Dont compare.

.....................
...
.. Its sort of long, so nobody will probably read it anyway. =)

Yeah, its a bit long but nothing compare to the length of a few of EbonySeraphin's posts.

It was a well thought out post but I thought the quoted paragraph was the highlight of your post. I agree with that part completely. All of the main characters in this show seem to have unsettling past which motivate them more or less to walk on their chosen path. To compare their past in relations to tragedy/pain/anguish is just unfathomably silly since they all have suffered. Who suffered more and who suffered less cannot be important because there is no reasonable way to measure suffering/pain/anguish. If one is able to understand the pain and suffering of one character then one should also be able to understand the pain and suffering of another character regardless of a different setting of events and situation. What all of these characters have one thing in common is that they are/were lonely. Some are eager to change that status while the others are not.

Naruto sure is an interesting anime to talk about.

Quote:

It really all boils down to cutting Sasuke some slack.

That is just a wishful musing on your part!

mayumi · 2004-11-15, 19:01

i can understand why sasuke is kishimoto's favourite character design. because sasuke is full of conflict, he can be explored in both good and bad side.

naruto is the source of inspiration, sasuke is the source of conflict. perfect balance. they are a superb duo, much more than vegita and goku. with out sasuke the story would be boring and likewise for naruto.

MysticNinjaJay · 2004-11-15, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tron Bonne

I said I have a hard time, not that I can't. Naruto's past is sad, but at least it only would affect me. I can bear that kind of pain, but to have to watch my loved ones be killed cold bloodedly, that I could not live with. I can't see how you can compare the two myself, it hurts to lose someone, it hurts far more than to have to suffer yourself, at least for me. I would rather be alone forever than watch a loved one die, it's selfish to think otherwise. Naruto could have done something to save himself, he chose not to, he chose the easy way. Sasuke had no way to stop what happened, he couldn't have beat Itachi, he was a victem by force not by choice. There is the difference between the two.

Now I will say this. I couldn't bare losing people I loved in such a tragic way. Thats something I know about myself, thats probably the only thing I fear in realife. What happened to Sasuke was horrible. But as they say it is better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved before. What happened to Naruto probably isn't as
bad as it sounds but the concept isn't even human. To never have anyone care for you, thats too sad an existence. Like Haku said, the feeling of being an unwanted person is the greatest pain of all. Its just not human to go through life with noone to care for you. Even if you are hated and detested to the greatest extent by someone as long as their is someone to love you you have a reason to live. Even if they die you have a reason to live because they loved you and would have wanted you to be happy. To not have the at all is the same as being dead. Thats why Gaara had to find a reason to exist that went beyond being loved, he decided to love himself and screw everyone else(and kill them too). Thats what Kakashi was trying to tell Sasuke that even if he lost someone, everyone dearest to him he can still have companions. I think he has been pretty rational considering all that has happened to him, even willingly becoming a traitor is understandable. He is simply blinded by an ambition that was seeded in him, he won't fidn the light until he sees wht is really important now, whether he gets his revenge or not. But, Naruto had a horrible existence too before he redeemed himself. Its very different from Sasuke and thats why he doesn't understand him but it was painful.

Tron Bonne · 2004-11-15, 19:27

What people don't see or don't want to see is that Naruto DID have someone, he just was too blind by his self pity to see that he always had what he wanted. There were people who cared about him, my guess is it just wasn't want Naruto wanted. He wanted more, he wanted everyone to look at him. He sat and felt sorry for himself instead of truing trying to improve himself. I can understand Naruto's past, I grew up with very little. I suffer from chroinc illnesses, I have my whole life. I couldn't play with other kids, I was always looked at as the sick kid, don't go near her or you'll get sick. Parents didn't want their kids around me, because I was too much work. I couldn't go to school, I was taught at home, all I had was my parents and two close friends. I could have let this depress me, I could have felt sorry for myself, but I didn't, I didn't have as much as some, but what I did have I cherished.

MysticNinjaJay · 2004-11-15, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tron Bonne

What people don't see or don't want to see is that Naruto DID have someone, he just was too blind by his self pity to see that he always had what he wanted. There were people who cared about him, my guess is it just wasn't want Naruto wanted. He wanted more, he wanted everyone to look at him. He sat and felt sorry for himself instead of truing trying to improve himself. I can understand Naruto's past, I grew up with very little. I suffer from chroinc illnesses, I have my whole life. I couldn't play with other kids, I was always looked at as the sick kid, don't go near her or you'll get sick. Parents didn't want their kids around me, because I was too much work. I couldn't go to school, I was taught at home, all I had was my parents and two close friends. I could have let this depress me, I could have felt sorry for myself, but I didn't, I didn't have as much as some, but what I did have I cherished.

Your experience is real life so I will try not to get to personal when I remind you that Naruto had no parents or friends or mentors in his life before Iruka. Sure he wasn't the elephant man but people hated him even when he was behaving and just wanted to be involved in life. Even Iruka kept his distance because afterall Naruto had the very demon living inside him that killed his parents. He may have tried to be there for him but he was just the nice teacher who gave you a failing grade and bought you ramen afterwards so you didn't cry yourself to sleep on an empty stomach. Naruto had no clue Hinata had a crush on him and that wasn't his fault. Other than that the Hokage is the only one who understood him but he was a busy man. Thats probably why Naruto tried to get in trouble with the 3rd so much and always messed with him. He was one of the few who didn't cast his eyes down at him like he was a villain.

Naruto wasn't blind to anything he was a victim. Being Hokage meant everyone HAD to respect him when before noone did. When he finally got acknowledged he cherished those bonds and thats why Sasuke is still important to him. They don't portray it, probably because its too depressing but even still the average villager hates Naruto, this innocent little 12 year old boy. He for one has my sympathy as a tragic charcter. Not as much as Sasuke because Naruto gained something but Sasuke lost too much. Yet still Naruto's life hasn't been peachy you can atleast acknowledge that.

Azathoth · 2004-11-15, 19:46

Quote:

What people don't see or don't want to see is that Naruto DID have someone, he just was too blind by his self pity to see that he always had what he wanted.

If you are talking about Iruka, realize that Naruto had only known him as a strict teacher for a year or so. Before the whole incident with the Scroll of Seals Iruka never went out of his way to talk to him, buy him raman, etc. And before then he had no one in his life, with any attempt to get close to others resulting in rejection and displays of hatred. That still leaves a decade of his life devoid of anything approaching human compassion, which should have in all rights turned him into a sociopathic monster...like Gaara. Naruto's determination and will are simply that strong, which is why ultimately he will become the strongest Nin to ever walk the land.

PS: I put much of Naruto's treatment squarely on Sarotobi's shoulders. Given the unique properties of the Kyubbi, he should have arranged to raise Naruto in a nurturing environment while developing control of its powers from as an early an age as feasible. Imagine how strong Konoha would be with a fully dedicated Naruto trained since near-birth to control the Kyubbi. Forget Itachi or the Sannin, he would be the real deal... (:

Tron Bonne · 2004-11-15, 19:47

I can feel for him, I just also can be anrgy at him. It isn't up to others to improve your life, it's up to you. I know Naruto had to have care takers, he was a child, he wasn't just left to raise himself. He did always have the 3rd, and busy or not the 3rd would have made time for him and I'm sure he did, Naruto seemed to know the 3rd better than most the children. He did have Iruka, Iruka truely did care for Naruto, him being there even with his past with the fox demon shows how much he did care for Naruto.

aahhsin · 2004-11-15, 19:50

Why does this thread remind me so much of this other thread that got locked... and if history repeats itself...

"How Can You Not Like Sasuke"

You can find it in the Naruto forum directory.

Tron Bonne · 2004-11-15, 19:55

The point I hate is how people can say, Naruto is so strong and Sasuke is so weak. Look at what Naruto went through and he doesn't act like Sasuke. It's not true, Naruto was bitter, he hated his life, the way people treated him. He felt sorry for himself and thought his life was the worst and no one could understand his pain. Just like Sasuke. He didn't save himself, he was saved. Naruto himself wondered if he could have become like Gaara if not for his friends saving him. He said he felt like Gaara did. Sasuke is the same as Naruto, he's not an evil person, or weak, he's human. He needs help, he needs to be saved.

Urashima-Sempai · 2004-11-15, 20:01

Umm.. how can you guys get mad at a cartoon character to begin with?

MysticNinjaJay · 2004-11-15, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tron Bonne

I can feel for him, I just also can be anrgy at him. It isn't up to others to improve your life, it's up to you. I know Naruto had to have care takers, he was a child, he wasn't just left to raise himself. He did always have the 3rd, and busy or not the 3rd would have made time for him and I'm sure he did, Naruto seemed to know the 3rd better than most the children. He did have Iruka, Iruka truely did care for Naruto, him being there even with his past with the fox demon shows how much he did care for Naruto.

Thats just the thing though. Naruto held his chin up high and vowed to surpass the Hokage in order to be acknowledged. Between Iruka and the 3rd Hokage as wel as the fact that the children didn't treat him like a monster is all that kept Naruto from being a sociopath like Gaara. Naruto was a free spirited, "I'll do what I want since noone will notice me when I'm good type of guy". If you are going to be mad at Naruto for not trying even harder to fit in and recognize people care about him you might aswell be mad at Sasuke for being sad and depressed when everyone would give their right arm just to be his friend. Sasuke is Mr. Loner here not Naruto. I don't see how you can be mad at Naruto for something that isn't his fault. He tried his hardest to succeed even with no parent to pat him on the back (something that means alot more to us at an early age than you might realize) which meant he valued his life and he did his best to get people like Sakura to notice him (instead of being a loner). And lets not forget that must importantly Naruto DID recognize that people acknowledged him and cherished that as the most important thing in the world to him. That made him a better person (without other people in our life we'd have no human value, no bases to improve ourself

). How can you be mad at Naruto?

Tron Bonne · 2004-11-15, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

Thats just the thing though. Naruto held his chin up high and vowed to surpass the Hokage in order to be acknowledged. Between Iruka and the 3rd Hokage as wel as the fact that the children didn't treat him like a monster is all that kept Naruto from being a sociopath like Gaara. Naruto was a free spirited, "I'll do what I want since noone will notice me when I'm good type of guy". If you are going to be mad at Naruto for not trying even harder to fit in and recognize people care about him you might aswell be mad at Sasuke for being sad and depressed when everyone would give their right arm just to be his friend. Sasuke is Mr. Loner here not Naruto. I don't see how you can be mad at Naruto for something that isn't his fault. He tried his hardest to succeed even with no parent to pat him on the back (something that means alot more to us at an early age than you might realize) which meant he valued his life and he did his best to get people like Sakura to notice him (instead of being a loner). And lets not forget that must importantly Naruto DID recognize that people acknowledged him and cherished that as the most important thing in the world to him. That made him a better person (without other people in our life we'd have no human value, no bases to improve ourself

). How can you be mad at Naruto?

Naruto didn't try to improve his skill, his teachers and the 3rd told him if he tired he could become better. Naruto, wanted fame faster, just like how Sasuke wants power now, by being a trouble maker, by stealing the scroll, he wanted easy power so people would see him as something great. Just how Sasuke wants power now so he can kill Itachi.

Kayess · 2004-11-15, 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urashima-Sempai

Umm.. how can you guys get mad at a cartoon character to begin with?

Thats easy. We feel this emotion called "anger/hatred"... and when we reflect on it... we realise it is about a cartoon character. Not that hard... I think you should have thought out your reply more..

Urashima-Sempai · 2004-11-15, 20:29

The fact that you can draw out your emotions on a fictional character, not even based on a real person or event, is kind of sad in itself.

Or maybe I'm just heartless

MysticNinjaJay · 2004-11-15, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tron Bonne

Naruto didn't try to improve his skill, his teachers and the 3rd told him if he tired he could become better. Naruto, wanted fame faster, just like how Sasuke wants power now, by being a trouble maker, by stealing the scroll, he wanted easy power so people would see him as something great. Just how Sasuke wants power now so he can kill Itachi.

Actually Naruto worked as hard as everyone else (if you see clips of the manga you will see that he worked his ass of at home trying to master jutsus of ordinary scrolls). But no matter how hard he tried he was just a kluts and he failed the simplest jutsus (which in reality was due to the difficulty of molding chakra caused by the stress of Kyuubi being in his body). He listened to Mizuki and stole the scroll because he failed the exam 3 times. He didn't even know he was stealing Mizuki told him if he mastered that scroll's moves he could pass the exam, it was a shortcut but not in the same sense as Sasuke is yearning for false power. I've got to say that despite being clumsy and hyperactive Naruto is a good natured fellow. He does not deserve any contempt as far as I can see.

.Incarnate// · 2004-11-15, 20:46

Tron bonne and Shurikenjay you both make good points that are actually true, so you are both basically right and are agreeing with each other because naruto's die hard determination makes him try to be the best he can be, in all areas,
So yes, he does hold his chin up and motivates himself but he also does want the fame and acknowledgement from the village so he tries his best to achieve that goal ie being a trouble maker. So naruto's determination drives him to his goal by using numerous methods because they will end up in the same destination which is him becoming hokage and being fully acknowledged by the village.

Uchiha Sasuke · 2004-11-15, 20:56

@ urashima sempai
i guess ur heartless.
well i suffered much in my life and !!!I !! can cry to a sad movie/anime/manga/book even if im a guy. and why are people attrected to naruto manga/anime? like u know its not the action its the sad things. Sad stories open hearts of people!!
also most of u sasuke hater liked haku but he was the same like sasuke so why are u against him he is a mislead person who use orichi to gain powwer and i think he will kill him after 3 years has past

2004-11-15, 17:34	Link #23
Kadius Lemon Merchant Join Date: Aug 2004 Age: 39	Apparently some of you don't know what it's like to be truly alone. Sasuke's sorrow and misery turned into hatred for his brother. He thrives on hatred and has shut himself off from the world. He was given everything and yet he still acts the way he does. He's single minded about what he wants with his life. He's an avenger and that's how he's decided to live his life. To hell with everyone else. Naruto on the other hand, only knows emptyness and hatred from others. He never had anyone to hold him or anyone to be friends with. I don't think people understand that. In my opinion Naruto still feels hallow inside, even if he smiles all the time. Naruto would be worse than Gaara if it wasn't for his 'precious people'. Naruto has never been loved. Sasuke was and is, yet all he does is sit around and wallow in self pity. There is no comparison. Last edited by Kadius; 2004-11-15 at 21:55. Reason: I'm a perfectionist.

2004-11-15, 19:01	Link #25
mayumi Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004	i can understand why sasuke is kishimoto's favourite character design. because sasuke is full of conflict, he can be explored in both good and bad side. naruto is the source of inspiration, sasuke is the source of conflict. perfect balance. they are a superb duo, much more than vegita and goku. with out sasuke the story would be boring and likewise for naruto.

2004-11-15, 19:27	Link #27
Tron Bonne Rockman Lover Join Date: Apr 2004 Age: 42	What people don't see or don't want to see is that Naruto DID have someone, he just was too blind by his self pity to see that he always had what he wanted. There were people who cared about him, my guess is it just wasn't want Naruto wanted. He wanted more, he wanted everyone to look at him. He sat and felt sorry for himself instead of truing trying to improve himself. I can understand Naruto's past, I grew up with very little. I suffer from chroinc illnesses, I have my whole life. I couldn't play with other kids, I was always looked at as the sick kid, don't go near her or you'll get sick. Parents didn't want their kids around me, because I was too much work. I couldn't go to school, I was taught at home, all I had was my parents and two close friends. I could have let this depress me, I could have felt sorry for myself, but I didn't, I didn't have as much as some, but what I did have I cherished.

2004-11-15, 19:47	Link #30
Tron Bonne Rockman Lover Join Date: Apr 2004 Age: 42	I can feel for him, I just also can be anrgy at him. It isn't up to others to improve your life, it's up to you. I know Naruto had to have care takers, he was a child, he wasn't just left to raise himself. He did always have the 3rd, and busy or not the 3rd would have made time for him and I'm sure he did, Naruto seemed to know the 3rd better than most the children. He did have Iruka, Iruka truely did care for Naruto, him being there even with his past with the fox demon shows how much he did care for Naruto.

2004-11-15, 19:50	Link #31
aahhsin Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003	Why does this thread remind me so much of this other thread that got locked... and if history repeats itself... "How Can You Not Like Sasuke" You can find it in the Naruto forum directory.

2004-11-15, 19:55	Link #32
Tron Bonne Rockman Lover Join Date: Apr 2004 Age: 42	The point I hate is how people can say, Naruto is so strong and Sasuke is so weak. Look at what Naruto went through and he doesn't act like Sasuke. It's not true, Naruto was bitter, he hated his life, the way people treated him. He felt sorry for himself and thought his life was the worst and no one could understand his pain. Just like Sasuke. He didn't save himself, he was saved. Naruto himself wondered if he could have become like Gaara if not for his friends saving him. He said he felt like Gaara did. Sasuke is the same as Naruto, he's not an evil person, or weak, he's human. He needs help, he needs to be saved.

2004-11-15, 20:01	Link #33
Urashima-Sempai Member Join Date: Sep 2004	Umm.. how can you guys get mad at a cartoon character to begin with?

2004-11-15, 20:29	Link #37
Urashima-Sempai Member Join Date: Sep 2004	The fact that you can draw out your emotions on a fictional character, not even based on a real person or event, is kind of sad in itself. Or maybe I'm just heartless

2004-11-15, 20:46	Link #39
.Incarnate// Such is life Join Date: Oct 2004 Age: 38	Tron bonne and Shurikenjay you both make good points that are actually true, so you are both basically right and are agreeing with each other because naruto's die hard determination makes him try to be the best he can be, in all areas, So yes, he does hold his chin up and motivates himself but he also does want the fame and acknowledgement from the village so he tries his best to achieve that goal ie being a trouble maker. So naruto's determination drives him to his goal by using numerous methods because they will end up in the same destination which is him becoming hokage and being fully acknowledged by the village.

2004-11-15, 20:56	Link #40
Uchiha Sasuke i'm an avenger Join Date: May 2003 Location: Berlin, Germany Age: 40	@ urashima sempai i guess ur heartless. well i suffered much in my life and !!!I !! can cry to a sad movie/anime/manga/book even if im a guy. and why are people attrected to naruto manga/anime? like u know its not the action its the sad things. Sad stories open hearts of people!! also most of u sasuke hater liked haku but he was the same like sasuke so why are u against him he is a mislead person who use orichi to gain powwer and i think he will kill him after 3 years has past