[Manga] Sasuke Rant...and yes, its long...

[Vinac]

Originally Posted by Anthriel

I don't want to get you down, but I think just about every discussion about Sasuke becomes quite heated and long.
No matter how much you hate Sasuke and how much you disagree with me on other points, there is one thing you cannot argue. Sasuke is the character who is discussed the most, therefore he is the most interesting and probably the best designed character in all of Naruto.

Yeah thats probably true, however I also know that people have a tendency to not want to read original posts that are overly long, so I didnt really expect the thread to have too much activity.

[nh1]

Sasuke should have acknowledged Naruto when he realized that Naruto was getting stronger. It's that simple.

[Tron Bonne]

Jut because someone starts to work hard and improve doesn't mean people have to fall all over them with paise. It takes time to prove you really have improved. Sasuke didn't have to do anything, he doesn't owe Naruto anything. He always acknowledged Naruto as a rival. He acknowledged Naruto as an equal when they fought on the waterfall.

[nh1]

Point is, he should have acknowledged it, not denied it.

[MysticNinjaJay]

We all know Sasuke was intimidate by Naruto's success because he didn't feel he was developing fast enough. Acknowledging Naruto or fighting him as a rival was hardly on his mind. All he can think about is killing Itachi. I wander what Sasuke would say if Kakashi told him Iachi kicked his ass and he has to surpass him to rival Itachi.

[Tettsuo]

Originally Posted by nh1

Point is, he should have acknowledged it, not denied it.

Completely agree.

Originally Posted by Anthriel

Let's see ... the one who calls himself the greatest ninja in existance, the one who is angry about being in the same group as the best one in his class ("Iruka-sensei! Why am I, the great Naruto in the same team as this loser Sasuke?"), the one who always exclaims he will kick his opponents ass and not lose to anyone is just confident, but the quiet boy with inferiority complexes is the arrogant bastard. What an unbiased opinion.
In fact, Sasuke doesn't think he is superior to everyone else at all. If he would, he wouldn't have to prove that to himself all the time. He wouldn't feel weak compared to Naruto. He wouldn't seek out strong opponents. He would seek out Itachi instead.
When they fought Orochimaru, Sasuke knew there was no way they could beat him, he somehow tried to save them all from certain death, whereas Naruto simply assumed he was able to beat Oro.
Hell, I don't think there is any character who is more aware of the fact there are stronger people than him than Sasuke. And I don't think there is any character who is less aware of that than Naruto.

Sasuke treats everyone like sh*t, totally unlike Naruto. That's the difference you seem to be missing.

Honestly, what does Naruto's progression have to do with Sasuke's? That's right, nothing. It certainly should not make him upset to see Naruto grow from a loser to force to be reckoned with, yet it does. It should inspire him to work hard, not take a shortcut by joining up with Oro.

Let's put it in simpler terms....

Sasuke turned his back on those that love him in search of a shortcut to getting enough power to beat Itachi.

Sasuke let's his murderous brother dictate his life to him.

Folks continue to say that Sasuke is upset with himself. But he was fine with his growth until he started seeing Naruto's growth.

He gets his ass kicked, and starts sulking around like a little b*tch. What he should be doing is grabbing Kakashi and everyone else he can to help train him. But, instead of that, he gets pissy and attacks Naruto.

Those are signs of a weak person. Sure his life was hard, but was it any harder than Naruto who has never known the love of his parents (if he has any)? Stop making excuses for his poor behavior. If he's acting like a jackass, then that's what he's acting like.

[Anthriel]

Originally Posted by nh1

Sasuke should have acknowledged Naruto when he realized that Naruto was getting stronger. It's that simple.

Sasuke did acknowledge Naruto as a strong ninja already. Back in the Chuunin Exam, he said something like: "I'm an avenger, I want to fight strong people to see if I'm strong. I want to fight you too, Naruto." He doesn't have to acknowledge Naruto as his equal or as someone stronger than himself. Naruto never acknowledged Sasuke as someone stronger or even equal in power to himself either, not even back in the days of the Haku arc, when Sasuke was way stronger than him.
He probably shouldn't have trashtalked Naruto, but it's not like Naruto never trashtalked Sasuke anyway.

[Tron Bonne]

Originally Posted by Tettsuo

Completely agree.

Sasuke treats everyone like sh*t, totally unlike Naruto. That's the difference you seem to be missing.

Honestly, what does Naruto's progression have to do with Sasuke's? That's right, nothing. It certainly should not make him upset to see Naruto grow from a loser to force to be reckoned with, yet it does. It should inspire him to work hard, not take a shortcut by joining up with Oro.

Let's put it in simpler terms....

Sasuke turned his back on those that love him in search of a shortcut to getting enough power to beat Itachi.

Sasuke let's his murderous brother dictate his life to him.

Folks continue to say that Sasuke is upset with himself. But he was fine with his growth until he started seeing Naruto's growth.

He gets his ass kicked, and starts sulking around like a little b*tch. What he should be doing is grabbing Kakashi and everyone else he can to help train him. But, instead of that, he gets pissy and attacks Naruto.

Those are signs of a weak person. Sure his life was hard, but was it any harder than Naruto who has never known the love of his parents (if he has any)? Stop making excuses for his poor behavior. If he's acting like a jackass, then that's what he's acting like.

Naruto made himself a rival to Sasuke. He forced himself on Sasuke as a rival, Sasuke never bothered Naruto, and Naruto started this whole "I'm better than you." relationship, not Sasuke. Naruto was jealous of Sasuke, not the other way around. How does Sasuke treat people like crap? He never bothered people, he was a loner, Naruto was the loud trash talker growing up, not Sasuke. He still is the trash talker, he gets in everyone's face he meets and rubs it in their face that's he's the strongest and will be Hokage one day.

Did you even read fights like Gaara? He trusted Naruto's strength to do what his strength couldn't, he was never angry at Naruto for that; he defended Naruto to Sakura about how it was Naruto that saved her and not him. He said he wanted to fight strong people, Naruto included. He even asked for Naruto's help when learning to tree climb which Naruto refused to do. He jumped in front of Sakura to protect from the Demon Brothers, he was willing to die for Naruto during the Haku fight, he lost it when the sound ninja's hurt Sakura, he was willing to die again for his friends during the Gaara fight, he tried to save Naruto from his brother when he heard he was after Naruto. He didn't even think about revenge all he thought about was saving Naruto.

[Hideki Keiji]

Originally Posted by Tettsuo

Honestly, what does Naruto's progression have to do with Sasuke's? That's right, nothing. It certainly should not make him upset to see Naruto grow from a loser to force to be reckoned with, yet it does. It should inspire him to work hard, not take a shortcut by joining up with Oro.

Folks continue to say that Sasuke is upset with himself. But he was fine with his growth until he started seeing Naruto's growth.

Look, you seem to be missing something. Sasuke is upset because he is a 'genius' ninja and Naruto was the worst ninja in his class. He is upset because he's pushing himself as hard as he can, and Naruto is not only close to him in strength(a little stronger) but also has Itachi's attention, the attention that he, who has sworn to kill him, should be getting. This is why he wants to fight Naruto, to prove that his training has actually done something, to prove that he is a genius with the possibility to kill his super-genius brother. Is this so hard to understand? To put this in perspective, let's say you're on a track team. You're the best at it the top runner. Along comes the worst runner, who stinks at running and who despite all your training is suddenly getting better, faster than yourself. Wouldn't you want to race him, to prove that you're still on the top?

Those are signs of a weak person. Sure his life was hard, but was it any harder than Naruto who has never known the love of his parents (if he has any)? Stop making excuses for his poor behavior. If he's acting like a jackass, then that's what he's acting like.

So you're equating living without loved ones for most of your life, a life that is getting better, to having everyone you care about brutally murderd by the person you looked up to most, then having to relive that for 24 hours. And if that's not enough, after Sasuke started to move on with life, make friends, you know, be semi-normal, he had to relive it again for another 24 hours.

[ninja massacre]

come to think about it...people say that sasuke is arrogant
"up until now, What have I been doing?"
what he means is: I'm weak, I have not train hard enough, I need to train more...

where's the arrogance fellaws?

[Tettsuo]

Originally Posted by Tron Bonne

Did you even read fights like Gaara? He trusted Naruto's strength to do what his strength couldn't, he was never angry at Naruto for that; he defended Naruto to Sakura about how it was Naruto that saved her and not him. He said he wanted to fight strong people, Naruto included. He even asked for Naruto's help when learning to tree climb which Naruto refused to do. He jumped in front of Sakura to protect from the Demon Brothers, he was willing to die for Naruto during the Haku fight, he lost it when the sound ninja's hurt Sakura, he was willing to die again for his friends during the Gaara fight, he tried to save Naruto from his brother when he heard he was after Naruto. He didn't even think about revenge all he thought about was saving Naruto.

All of that and he betrays them all by joining Oro, a person that has sworn to destroy everything they hold dear.

Yeah... he's a great guy.

[FearTheMullet]

I didn't bother reading all the pages of this disscusion because I don't care for reading more then a few posts(and the first one being as long as it was, really didn't get me in the mood for more reading :P). This topic caught my eye, though. So I'll drop my 2 cents in the collection bin. I'm sorry if I happen to reiterate some ideas posted before.

Sasuke is a psycho. He had a damaged childhood and because of that he acts this way. Alot of his negative impulses and actions can be attributed to the fact that his brother killed his whole family, but all his evil doings can not be excused ny this one traumatizing act. Sasuke could ahve (and should have) looked for/sought out help to cope with these problems not just gone crazy. Real-life comparison; my grandfather was a perfectly stable person even though the Soviet Army killed off his parents, and 9 brothers and sisters. He didn't go crazy, he had an inherent dislike and distrust to all things Soviet, which he passed down to his kids, and his kids (my mom) have examplified this view as well. Thats about as close an example as you cna get to someone getting their whole family killed (that or a Jewish person who survived Auschwitz). So the person on the first page who said an example couldn't be drawn is a bit off the mark. I know the examples a bit of a stretch though.

But moving away from that and back to Sasuke, before we all just judge him for being so angsty we have to come to understand that Kishimoto wrote Sasuke to be someone of weak character. Before all the Sasuke-fan-boys come in and start pissing their pants; character in the mental sense. He was meant to be someone that could be easily manipulated. On the other hand Naruto was meant to be someone of strong character. Both had traumatizing lives, but their pasts cannot be compared. Sasuke had his whole family killed and he had to watch it, which I'm sure would be horrendous. On the othe hand though, Naruto had no family to be killed. The village people all loved thier little Uchiha(in the sense that they all had some type of respect for him). Whereas Naruto was hated and despised by all. There is a big differences in the traumas and the line cannot be drawn who had a harder life. The only comparison that can be made is what they did with their cards. They both got shitty hands (it's like two people both getting bottoms in Euchre), but one of them used/as of now is using their better(still winning all the tricks on your bottoms is great).

[Tettsuo]

Originally Posted by Hideki Keiji

To put this in perspective, let's say you're on a track team. You're the best at it the top runner. Along comes the worst runner, who stinks at running and who despite all your training is suddenly getting better, faster than yourself. Wouldn't you want to race him, to prove that you're still on the top?

Sure, but I wouldn't want to hurt the guy because he worked hard to become that fast. I'd be training with him to get better.

Originally Posted by Hideki Keiji

So you're equating living without loved ones for most of your life, a life that is getting better, to having everyone you care about brutally murderd by the person you looked up to most, then having to relive that for 24 hours. And if that's not enough, after Sasuke started to move on with life, make friends, you know, be semi-normal, he had to relive it again for another 24 hours.

To have been loved by your mother and father is better than never having experienced it at all.

[FearTheMullet]

Originally Posted by ninja massacre

come to think about it...people say that sasuke is arrogant
"up until now, What have I been doing?"
what he means is: I'm weak, I have not train hard enough, I need to train more...

where's the arrogance fellaws?

Then he realized his weakness, up until that point, he hadn't. He had been on a bit of an ego trip.

[ninja massacre]

Originally Posted by FearTheMullet

Then he realized his weakness, up until that point, he hadn't. He had been on a bit of an ego trip.

I still can't see why you call him ego-trip or arrogant. He practiclly never says anything unless it's necessary and only whishes to be strong. He acts like a bitch in the latest episodes, but he's got his reasons. He probably understands that he only say the stuff that he says and act the way he acts because he's very pissed and practiclly destroyed psychologically.

[Lee-pimp]

ok my last post was kind of a ramble, so im going to reorganize.

point: sasuke's life vs neji's life

sasuke looked up to his brother as the strong person he was.
neji looked up to his uncle in the same way.

Itachi killed sasuke's family
Neji was under the impression that Hiashi killed his family

Itachi left the village and sasuke thought about revenge
Hiashi stayed obviously, and Neji couldnt get revenge or would be killed, he had to live with the supposed killer and actually PROTECT him.

when this happened to sasuke he was 7
when this happened to neji he was 4

NOW then im sure some of you say, "well neji's uncle didnt actually kill his family and neji found that out" YES THAT IS CORRECT BUT im comparing their growth up until the point that neji found out his uncle did not kill his family.

Neji was a stable character, he may have been a little violent and he bore a great resentment for the main family and a hate for them but he never tried to kill his uncle, although he did serilously injure hinata. He was still able to socialize normally and when naruto beat him he did not immedietly go off in an angsty mood.

Sasuke is a comletely unstable character whos whole life revolves around revenge. someone quoted all the times that he tried to help his friends sure those are good examples to defend him BUT they were all thrown out the window when he ran away to his gay lover oralchimaru.

now then you see the similarites betweent these two and you see the different reactions also its not like naruto or kakashi where you can validly say they are not close enough neji and sasuke are very close.

i rest this point

sincerely, lee-pimp ASS vp

[FearTheMullet]

Originally Posted by ninja massacre

I still can't see why you call him ego-trip or arrogant. He practiclly never says anything unless it's necessary and only whishes to be strong. He acts like a bitch in the latest episodes, but he's got his reasons. He probably understands that he only say the stuff that he says and act the way he acts because he's very pissed and practiclly destroyed psychologically.

He isn't now, and If you've read the manga up to date thats more apparant. But he was. Regardless of his reasons he was on an ego trip earlier.

[ninja massacre]

Originally Posted by FearTheMullet

He isn't now, and If you've read the manga up to date thats more apparant. But he was. Regardless of his reasons he was on an ego trip earlier.

not IMO.

OK..Lets define the word ego. A person who only thinks of himself.
How can a person who risks his life for others he doesn't even like be an ego?

[nh1]

Originally Posted by ninja massacre

OK..Lets define the word ego. A person who only thinks of himself.
How can a person who risks his life for others he doesn't even like be an ego?

How can a person who doesn't care if the world goes under as long as he fullfills his goal, be an ego?

[Anthriel]

Sure, but I wouldn't want to hurt the guy because he worked hard to become that fast. I'd be training with him to get better.

That point was nullified before. Naruto used the deadly attack before Sasuke did. If Sasuke wants to hurt Naruto, then Naruto wants to kill Sasuke. If Sasuke is arrogant, then Naruto is the most arrogant asshole who was ever created.

Then he realized his weakness, up until that point, he hadn't. He had been on a bit of an ego trip.

He was on a ego-trip when he fought Rock Lee (just as Naruto was, by the way) but apart from that, name one instance where he belittled his opponent and thought he was stronger than him. Hell, he already stated he is weaker than Naruto ("How can I grow that kind of power") and he knew he was no match for Orochimaru. Now, name an instance where Naruto realized he was weaker than someone else. Can't find one? Thought so.

I hate it when people just make a statement without giving any proof whatsoever.

To have been loved by your mother and father is better than never having experienced it at all.

That is open for debate. Besides, Sasuke didn't become what he is right now till Itachi used the Mangekyou on him. That's something that is unique to him, no other character with a horrible childhood had to watch his trauma again for 24 hours. We don't even know how Naruto would react. Gaara turned into the worst kind of psycho even without that special treatment.

Sasuke could ahve (and should have) looked for/sought out help to cope with these problems not just gone crazy.

Try to explain to a screwed up kid it has to seek help. I don't think that would go to well.

he village people all loved thier little Uchiha(in the sense that they all had some type of respect for him).

That's true, but every time we saw him after the massacre, he was all alone. Doesn't look like anyone really cared for him. And it's not to suprising you don't try to make friends if you just experienced that kind of trauma. Frankly, I think Leaf should have given some kind of guardian to him (Naruto could have needed one as well.) It's idiotic to let traumatized children live by themselves. You shouldn't be too suprised if they turn out to be psychos.