(L) Haibane Renmei opinions?

[TinyRedLeaf]

Silence_Fish asked, way back in 2004:

Many people probably wanted to know what lay beyond the wall, though I take the wall to be more a metaphor, which is probably why the creators didn't go beyond it.

I hazard to say that Reki actually described it best in the final episode of the series:

Spoiler:

"This town is my prison. What the Walls signify is Death! This world is separated by Death!"

What lies beyond the Wall is not just unknown, but is rather Unknowable.

Given enough time, what is Unknown can eventually become known. But what is Unknowable, well, it's simply beyond our ability to ever know.

For us humans, what happens to us after we die is not just unknown -- it is completely Unknowable. We can speculate, but we can never know for sure -- no one has ever come back from the dead to tell us what it's like being, um, dead. In fact, the question itself is meaningless. As meaningless as trying to define division by zero.

What matters more is how we react to the stories/myths/religions we conjure up to explain what happens to us after we die. These stories, when properly conceived, are what gives us Hope.

They give us something positive to believe in, and as such, they are what make our lives meaningful.

Whether those stories actually correspond with the Truth, it hardly matters. Because there isn't anything to prove in the first place -- no one knows the true answer anyway, and no one ever will.

Credit for the above explanation is not mine. Rather, it comes from this little website.

[SpecterVR]

I watched Haibane Renmei a little over a year ago, and I thought the purgatory concept was an interesting way to make sense of it.
But, I started reading "Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the world" a few weeks ago (due to wanting to read more of Murakami's material, the wind up bird chronicle being a really good book), and the similarities were driving me nuts (what I noticed most, so far, is the wall). I'll probably have to watch the series again once I finish the book, but I'm glad that I wasn't the only one
(I think someone mentioned that it was a major inspiration to ABe, actually. x_x)

I haven't quite finished the book, however, its rather interesting, as one said before

Spoiler for the book:

As the End of the world is a "dead end", or at least seems like it while Glie is a "stepping stone". I mean, The End of the world is so massively depressing for such a "fantasy" world, as the adventures in Tokyo are much more extravagant than the fantasy world. None the less, I haven't finished yet, but for the most part they seem close to polar opposites. XD

A pointless post, really, but the series was quite enjoyable and a really lovely change of pace back then.

[Trax]

I've watched a little of this series, but it feels like the anime version of a lullaby. Nothing of consequence happens. Does this actually go anywhere, or am I better off not watching anymore unless I have trouble falling asleep?

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Trax

I've watched a little of this series, but it feels like the anime version of a lullaby. Nothing of consequence happens. Does this actually go anywhere, or am I better off not watching anymore unless I have trouble falling asleep?

Oh, it's going somewhere. I assume you haven't seen episode six yet.

[Skyfall]

Hm, i sort of dropped it after watching ep5, because i was bored to tears and yawning more than i should when i was doing something that is suposed to be fun for me.

Maybe i should watch that ep6 you are talking about FPB

[Trax]

Originally Posted by AnimeNfo Review

Be ready to bring a pillow for the first 5 episodes or so. After that, it's interesting enough to keep your attention.

This seems to match my thoughts so far and episode 6+ as you say.

[Vexx]

Personally, I love stories that just drop you into a world and you pick up the unspoken assumptions as the story progresses (even to the point of unexplained slang terms). H.R. has a wonderful .... twilight zone surrealness to it. Sometimes I call it "european" in that it doesn't lead the audience by the nose - they have to pay attention and evolve their own explanations at times.

Just a fascinating bit of anime.... <thumbs up>

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Personally, I love stories that just drop you into a world and you pick up the unspoken assumptions as the story progresses (even to the point of unexplained slang terms). H.R. has a wonderful .... twilight zone surrealness to it. Sometimes I call it "european" in that it doesn't lead the audience by the nose - they have to pay attention and evolve their own explanations at times.

Just a fascinating bit of anime.... <thumbs up>

Agreed. It's not for everyone, but if your idea of entertainment doesn't necessarily involve guns, swords, giant robots, slapstick humor, or any combination thereof, HR is highly recommended. One of the very few anime that I wouldn't be hesitant to submit for discussion in a university art or philosophy class.

[zalas]

I think Haibane Renmei works a lot better when you are naturally curious about things you see. It's not nearly as fun when you aren't asking yourself questions about how their world works.

[Trax]

After finding out that things would get better from episode 6 and onward, I went ahead and finished this series. And indeed things got more interesting, and I am glad I continued after all. However, I still can't overlook the fact that I nearly stopped watching this anime, something which is quite rare for me. The lack of pull in the initial episodes and the overall slow pacing lowers my overall opinion of this series. Nevertheless, I did enjoy watching it since it picks up towards the end.

[Joojoobees]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I hazard to say that Reki actually described it best in the final episode of the series:

Spoiler:

"This town is my prison. What the Walls signify is Death! This world is separated by Death!"

Exactly.

Spoiler:

I think suicide is very much at the heart of the haibane. I got the impression that they all had killed themselves in past lives as was mentioned earlier in the thread, but also the final act of going over the wall is very much like suicide (which is precisely what makes Kuu's actions so emotionally disturbing).

[Sonhex]

Originally Posted by Joojoobees

Exactly.

Spoiler:

I think suicide is very much at the heart of the haibane. I got the impression that they all had killed themselves in past lives as was mentioned earlier in the thread, but also the final act of going over the wall is very much like suicide (which is precisely what makes Kuu's actions so emotionally disturbing).

Hmm ...

Spoiler:

...going over the wall is not remotely like suicide. The way I (and others) interpreted it - going over the wall is the result of atonement for the sin of suicide or, in the case of the youngest kids, death before they developed a spiritual self. The Haibane have to make amends for their sins (or lack of spiritual purity or development) and once they've done that they can pass over the wall to Heaven (or where ever Abe had in mind). Kuu and Rekki were forgiven and moved on to the next phase of existence if you like. Think of it like a test to pass to level up :P

Rekki said what she did because she had all but given up hope of ever leaving the town. Before Rakka helped her the town meant death because she didn't think she could ever be forgiven or saved.

[Deathkillz]

hmm i actually finnished this a few weeks ago ~ man was it a slow watch tho O.o

its true that things get interesting after ep 6 ~ it seems as if i was plunged into a world of darkness knowing the darker secrets of being a haibane ~

i liked the ending when things was able to resolve nicely ~ rakka finding her first egg and the cycle of the haibane continues in an endless loop ~

it quite the unique genre imo...and a good watch if you can make it past the fitst hurdle ^__^

[Joojoobees]

Originally Posted by Sonhex

Hmm ...

Spoiler:

...going over the wall is not remotely like suicide. The way I (and others) interpreted it - going over the wall is the result of atonement for the sin of suicide or, in the case of the youngest kids, death before they developed a spiritual self.

I don't think so. Kuu made a clear choice, and the effect upon those left behind is the same, regardless.

Originally Posted by Sonhex

Spoiler:

they can pass over the wall to Heaven

Spoiler:

Exactly. So passing over the wall is a metaphor for leaving this life behind. So choosing to go over the wall is a metaphor for killing off your current life that you share with your friends in Old Home.

Originally Posted by Sonhex

Spoiler:

The Haibane have to make amends for their sins (or lack of spiritual purity or development) and once they've done that they can pass over the wall to Heaven (or where ever Abe had in mind). Kuu and Rekki were forgiven and moved on to the next phase of existence if you like. Think of it like a test to pass to level up :P

I disagree. I don't think Kuu or Rekki did anything wrong. All of the Haibane are way nicer than most people you will meet, so saying they were spiritually deficient has to be wrong.

Deathkillz: I actually liked the beginning. I was enjoying the slow pace, and then the developments of episode 6 blew me away because I wasn't expecting it. This is probably my favorite TV show of all time.

[Joojoobees]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

What matters more is how we react to the stories/myths/religions we conjure up to explain what happens to us after we die. These stories, when properly conceived, are what gives us Hope.

They give us something positive to believe in, and as such, they are what make our lives meaningful.

Whether those stories actually correspond with the Truth, it hardly matters. Because there isn't anything to prove in the first place -- no one knows the true answer anyway, and no one ever will.

Whereas I agree with the above. I think focusing on Death is a mistake. For the Haibane, almost everything about their existence is Unknowable. They have a few legends passed down to them, but they are forced (think the library episode as the clearest example) to make up their own, to establish a meaning of their own. It won't be handed to them, or empirically verified.

[Sonhex]

Originally Posted by Joojoobees

I don't think so. Kuu made a clear choice, and the effect upon those left behind is the same, regardless.

Spoiler:

Well, I didn't think Kuu nor Rekki (nor any of the Haibane) had any choice in the matter. They simply knew their time to pass over the wall had come. They didn't wake up one day and decide to leave the town of their own free will. Once they'd done enough to make amends for their sin (a loose term, see below) they were allowed to move on.

Originally Posted by Joojoobees

I disagree. I don't think Kuu or Rekki did anything wrong. All of the Haibane are way nicer than most people you will meet, so saying they were spiritually deficient has to be wrong.

Spoiler for ep 13:

Rekki commited suicide by throwing herself infront of a train, that was clear from the last episode. Kuu may have been one of the young children who died before she had developed her 'spiritual self.' That does not necessarily mean she commited a sin, just before she could move on to Heaven she needed to develop said 'spiritual self'.

Incidently, the youngest children may have died naturally (or unnaturally) but prematurely. Of-course they are totally innocent of sin and guilt, but need time in the town to develop. For the suicides they have corrupted their spiritual self by taking their own lives, so their time in the town is to make amends for guilt and hate and other such things.

My theory is based on the Catholic concept of Purgatory. ABe may have had something else in mind, but to me there's quite a paralell.

[Slice of Life]

I think Glie is more like

Spoiler:

the limbo than the purgatory for a couple of reasons already stated. All Haibane are young, but only for Raka we have clear evidence that she committed suicide and only she was born with black feathers. Rekki's wings turned black only when she was in danger "to leave the right path" after Guu left. So I don't believe that Rekki committed suicide. It is true though that Glie also has some features of a purgatory, notably the chance to "level up".

[Joojoobees]

Originally Posted by Sonhex

Spoiler:

Well, I didn't think Kuu nor Rekki (nor any of the Haibane) had any choice in the matter. They simply knew their time to pass over the wall had come. They didn't wake up one day and decide to leave the town of their own free will. Once they'd done enough to make amends for their sin (a loose term, see below) they were allowed to move on.

Kuu may have been one of the young children who died before she had developed her 'spiritual self.' That does not necessarily mean she commited a sin, just before she could move on to Heaven she needed to develop said 'spiritual self'.

Spoiler for more on Kuu:

I think Kuu clearly made a choice. She told Rakka that she intended to fly one day. She methodically spent her last couple of days tying up loose strings (including saying goodbye to the cat, helping Rakka find a new room, telling Rakka she was the last few drops to fill her up, and making breakfast (I think that is what it was, they say "Where is Kuu? She is usually here by now. She must have been the one to make breakfast.")

When she leaves them, it is unmistakable that those who are left behind suffer grief. Since she cannot return to this life, she is at least metaphorically dead to it. I don't think it can be denied that by going over the wall she is becoming dead.

As to the undeveloped "spiritual self", there is no description in the anime of such a concept. I personally have a difficult time believing that such a concept has any meaning. Surely you can't be saying that people are born soulless, and a "spiritual self" only grows after one has physically matured to a certain age. What are the Haibane, if not spiritual after-images of some living person? If Kuu didn't have a "spiritual self", are you saying her soul didn't have a spirit?

[Joojoobees]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I think Glie is more like

Spoiler:

the limbo than the purgatory for a couple of reasons already stated. All Haibane are young, but only for Raka we have clear evidence that she committed suicide and only she was born with black feathers. Rekki's wings turned black only when she was in danger "to leave the right path" after Guu left. So I don't believe that Rekki committed suicide. It is true though that Glie also has some features of a purgatory, notably the chance to "level up".

Spoiler:

I think what you are saying is that existence in Glie is not a punishment. If so I agree. I personally believe life in Glie is an allegory for the life we experience here on Earth. The fact that the Haibane seem to be special, is no different from the fact that, in our own lives, WE seem to be special. Since the Haibane cannot recall their own past, there is no guarantee that they were born with the same body they used at that time. Rakka could be any one of us, or better phrased, is every one of us.

[Sonhex]

Originally Posted by Joojoobees

I think Kuu clearly made a choice...

Spoiler for Kuu:

Originally Posted by Joojoobees

...She told Rakka that she intended to fly one day. She methodically spent her last couple of days tying up loose strings (including saying goodbye to the cat, helping Rakka find a new room, telling Rakka she was the last few drops to fill her up, and making breakfast (I think that is what it was, they say "Where is Kuu? She is usually here by now. She must have been the one to make breakfast.")

That's an interesting intepretation. I've always thought Kuu just knew that her time had come - that some inner voice was telling her to prepare and to go to the western woods to depart. That it was involuntary. I still don't think she herself decided it was time to leave and consciously set about departing. Rekki left immediately because her time was long overdue anyway, but none of the Haibane know who or what they are or what they are supposed to do beyond what the Touga tell them - certainly not in regards to passing over the wall. But it's certainly an interesting way of looking at it. I may rewatch it with this in mind sometime.

Originally Posted by Joojoobees

As to the undeveloped "spiritual self", there is no description in the anime of such a concept. I personally have a difficult time believing that such a concept has any meaning. Surely you can't be saying that people are born soulless, and a "spiritual self" only grows after one has physically matured to a certain age. What are the Haibane, if not spiritual after-images of some living person? If Kuu didn't have a "spiritual self", are you saying her soul didn't have a spirit?

No this 'spiritual self' idea is just my theory. To me the Haibane's are the spirits of dead children and their time in Glie is to reach the correct level of spiritual purity in order to pass over the wall. However for the youngest kids, they have no concept of spirit when they arrive. That's what I mean by 'spiritual self'. Those kids, the youngest, need to develop some spiritual substance before they can pass over the wall. It's a form of conditioning for Heaven (or whatever lies beyond the wall). I'm not saying Kuu was lacking a spirit, more she had not yet obtained the necessary spiritual level to leave Glie. Think of it like a qualification of a kind.

I've always liked the idea that Kuu left Glie when she was at her happiest - happiness being a spiritual goal in itself. Maybe that was the level she obtained...